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I heard around the crew room yesterday that the negotiations had hit the fan. I guess that explains why the FAAA are not going to these forums. Not really worth going to if you are just getting one side of the story.
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Collegues I would advise that you go just to get enough ammo to go to the FAAA about what you want out of the deal. I have already spoken to them and given them my 2 cents worth.
Also it is worth going to hear firsthand what things are going to be like rather than listening to the bs that you hear at either end of the 73.
At this stage I am waiting till next month for more info about what its worth for us to agree to this. If the compensation is enough I am sure I can be swayed to vote yes. However knowing what the company is like I am sure that we will unfortunately be voting no in Sept.
Any idea what happens if we vote no under Howards new IR laws???
Also it is worth going to hear firsthand what things are going to be like rather than listening to the bs that you hear at either end of the 73.
At this stage I am waiting till next month for more info about what its worth for us to agree to this. If the compensation is enough I am sure I can be swayed to vote yes. However knowing what the company is like I am sure that we will unfortunately be voting no in Sept.
Any idea what happens if we vote no under Howards new IR laws???
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Originally Posted by Wirgin Blew
If the compensation is enough I am sure I can be swayed to vote yes
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I went to the one of the forums. My thoughts are as such (and these are only MY thoughts - its important that everyone reads up the full details and forms their own opinions):
- In MY opinion, the work rules are not good. The possibility of very long days (ie 4 sectors, 11 1/4 hours or something if I recall correctly) does not work for me - a 9hr45min day knocks me around enough now as it is. The fatigue management system is apparently designed to negate the tiring effects of long days, but I am not convinced.
- The Kronos PBS looks fantastic, although I am concerned at the 2 year 3-phase rollout period.
- Possibility (waiting for confirmation) that 15 hours min rest at home will reduce
- Trip break down, out of something like 1640 trips per month, included approx 44% day trips, then a mixture of 2,3,4,5,6 and 7 day trips. The long ones (5,6,7 days) were all only very low percentages (ie 1%, 2% etc)
- 5 Sector days are a possibility
- Split shifts now to include LST, ROK, SYD, MKY and CBR. This really irritated me, as we were told in the april forums "not to worry about the split shifts, they will ONLY be for ROK and there will only be something like 20 (cant recall exact number) per month"
My main view on all this is that IF the PBS works the way its advertised, then this may well all be ok. However, the problem is that if we sign on the dotted line, the work rules ARE gaurenteed - the success rate of the PBS is NOT. Meaning you can get rosters under these work rules that you really really really don't want - but too bad, because there is nothing in writing gaurenteeing the success of the PBS system... and the PBS system is the main selling point that was pushed in the forum.
Also, judging on the talk about $$ etc, I doubt we can expect anything higher than 3% per annum over 3 years - even though there is going to be an increase in productivity and a reduction in hotel and transport costs.
There is still no talk of how many hours per month we will be able to work, however under a 28 day roster there WILL be 13 rosters a year. They mentioned looking at being able to be rostered up to a range of hours, to give the PBS system the ability to give you what you want. I wonder what the range will be? If its anything higher than 129 per month, which is the 28day equivalent of our current 140 a month, the question I would ask is: why on earth would we vote in a system that is going to require us to work more to earn the same money????????
In my opinion there were some positive points and some negative points, and I strongly recommend everyone gets to the forurms and keeps themselves updated on whats going on, so they can form their own opinions and vote accordingly.
Oh, and I have reason to believe that whats being said on here is being read and communicated back to those who make these decisions
- In MY opinion, the work rules are not good. The possibility of very long days (ie 4 sectors, 11 1/4 hours or something if I recall correctly) does not work for me - a 9hr45min day knocks me around enough now as it is. The fatigue management system is apparently designed to negate the tiring effects of long days, but I am not convinced.
- The Kronos PBS looks fantastic, although I am concerned at the 2 year 3-phase rollout period.
- Possibility (waiting for confirmation) that 15 hours min rest at home will reduce
- Trip break down, out of something like 1640 trips per month, included approx 44% day trips, then a mixture of 2,3,4,5,6 and 7 day trips. The long ones (5,6,7 days) were all only very low percentages (ie 1%, 2% etc)
- 5 Sector days are a possibility
- Split shifts now to include LST, ROK, SYD, MKY and CBR. This really irritated me, as we were told in the april forums "not to worry about the split shifts, they will ONLY be for ROK and there will only be something like 20 (cant recall exact number) per month"
My main view on all this is that IF the PBS works the way its advertised, then this may well all be ok. However, the problem is that if we sign on the dotted line, the work rules ARE gaurenteed - the success rate of the PBS is NOT. Meaning you can get rosters under these work rules that you really really really don't want - but too bad, because there is nothing in writing gaurenteeing the success of the PBS system... and the PBS system is the main selling point that was pushed in the forum.
Also, judging on the talk about $$ etc, I doubt we can expect anything higher than 3% per annum over 3 years - even though there is going to be an increase in productivity and a reduction in hotel and transport costs.
There is still no talk of how many hours per month we will be able to work, however under a 28 day roster there WILL be 13 rosters a year. They mentioned looking at being able to be rostered up to a range of hours, to give the PBS system the ability to give you what you want. I wonder what the range will be? If its anything higher than 129 per month, which is the 28day equivalent of our current 140 a month, the question I would ask is: why on earth would we vote in a system that is going to require us to work more to earn the same money????????
In my opinion there were some positive points and some negative points, and I strongly recommend everyone gets to the forurms and keeps themselves updated on whats going on, so they can form their own opinions and vote accordingly.
Oh, and I have reason to believe that whats being said on here is being read and communicated back to those who make these decisions
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The BNE forums were interesting, although I was disappointed that the FAAA were not in attendance. All in all I have to say that so far I am not convinced - as mentioned above, the increase in productivity and the decrease in hotel/overnight payment/transport costs would want to mean a decent payrise for us, however I got the distinct impression thats not going to be the case. I too did not like the work rules, although the PBS does sound great if it works the way its intended to - but remember what they told us about Sabre? It has not performed at all in the way we were told it would 
I am keeping an open mind and will NOT make any decisions until the full package is presented to us, but I would be lying if I said I were not sceptical
These are only my thoughts though, and everyone really needs to educate themselves and make their own decisions.
I am keeping an open mind and will NOT make any decisions until the full package is presented to us, but I would be lying if I said I were not sceptical
These are only my thoughts though, and everyone really needs to educate themselves and make their own decisions.
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Thanks for the info NG Girl! I will definately NOT be voting yes for something that makes me work more for the same money! You also made a great point that once the rules are there we are stuck with them even if the PBS turns out to be dud (alla Sabre) - then what do we do?
Surely they must realise we are sick all the time with 4 sector/9:45 days - I cannot see how anything over 10 hours is not going to KILL us!! Maybe if we didn't have to clean/cater on turn arounds we may be less tired. Are they asking anyone else in the company besides Pilots/CC to work 14 hour days? I don't think so..
What about the second sector after the red-eye? Any mention of that nasty piece of work? Surely a fatigue mangement can't allow that horror?!
I guess the bottom line is we gotta let them know how we feel and keep ourselves informed as NG Girl said! It all gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.
Surely they must realise we are sick all the time with 4 sector/9:45 days - I cannot see how anything over 10 hours is not going to KILL us!! Maybe if we didn't have to clean/cater on turn arounds we may be less tired. Are they asking anyone else in the company besides Pilots/CC to work 14 hour days? I don't think so..
What about the second sector after the red-eye? Any mention of that nasty piece of work? Surely a fatigue mangement can't allow that horror?!
I guess the bottom line is we gotta let them know how we feel and keep ourselves informed as NG Girl said! It all gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.
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Re the sector after the red eye: they said that they are trying/have(?) put in a rule that will ensure only one sector after the red eye, with no more than 90 mins in between
I personally have never seen 2 sectors after a red eye - I did not know that was happening!
The sector after the red eye NEEDS to be scrapped altogether.. and for those who comment that its the same as a long haul flight or going out all night etc I totally disagree... a long haul overnight flight generally allows for inflight crew rest and a rest period downroute that prepares you for the flight home - plus as a long haul flight attendant you are much more accustomed to overnight flying, as it happens on most if not all trips you go on. Short haul is a totally different animal.
I personally have never seen 2 sectors after a red eye - I did not know that was happening!
The sector after the red eye NEEDS to be scrapped altogether.. and for those who comment that its the same as a long haul flight or going out all night etc I totally disagree... a long haul overnight flight generally allows for inflight crew rest and a rest period downroute that prepares you for the flight home - plus as a long haul flight attendant you are much more accustomed to overnight flying, as it happens on most if not all trips you go on. Short haul is a totally different animal.
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I personally have never seen 2 sectors after a red eye - I did not know that was happening!
Maybe if we didn't have to clean/cater on turn arounds we may be less tired.
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Smile - thats the sort of trip that scares me! I'm suprised anyone showed up to do that trip!! They always say they do that 'to get us home'. Never mind that you smash your car on the way home. I would rather finsh the red eye, then be driven to a hotel and then get some good quality sleep in a nice dark hotel room and then GO HOME the next day.
Sinala1 - though I'm not a long haul expert, your point is very valid. I cannot for life of me see why we have to do that extra sector - and limiting it to 90 minutes DOESNT CHANGE A EFFING THING!! - Thats what we get now!! Red Eyes are a fact of life at an airline, but they don't have to be torture! We are a domestic airline, and though like most of us I would love the opportunity to fly long haul with VB, until they show me the goods and I see SYD-LAX on my roster, only then will I consider changing the 'work rules' (and by the way I REALLY hate that term - its soooo modern-blah-blah-BS). Remember last time they promised us International flying (AKA new Zealand) and instead decided to contract it out to the kiwis.
I just wish they would start being nice to us!! VB is a great airline. We have always had such a good working life, but if they decide to screw us and it gets nasty we will just turn into another bitter and twisted mob of hosties like so many other airlines! I feel sorry for CSs who will be charged with trying to motivate disgruntled CC when they are disgruntled as well! Never mind the poor guests who will cop it when we are tired and fatigued.
Sorry for the rant - maybe I need some annual leave...
love,
Adam
Sinala1 - though I'm not a long haul expert, your point is very valid. I cannot for life of me see why we have to do that extra sector - and limiting it to 90 minutes DOESNT CHANGE A EFFING THING!! - Thats what we get now!! Red Eyes are a fact of life at an airline, but they don't have to be torture! We are a domestic airline, and though like most of us I would love the opportunity to fly long haul with VB, until they show me the goods and I see SYD-LAX on my roster, only then will I consider changing the 'work rules' (and by the way I REALLY hate that term - its soooo modern-blah-blah-BS). Remember last time they promised us International flying (AKA new Zealand) and instead decided to contract it out to the kiwis.
I just wish they would start being nice to us!! VB is a great airline. We have always had such a good working life, but if they decide to screw us and it gets nasty we will just turn into another bitter and twisted mob of hosties like so many other airlines! I feel sorry for CSs who will be charged with trying to motivate disgruntled CC when they are disgruntled as well! Never mind the poor guests who will cop it when we are tired and fatigued.
Sorry for the rant - maybe I need some annual leave...
love,
Adam
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oh you poor guys ... i really feel for you after having lived that life for the past three years ..have now left VB and I miss the people but not the bull----, and all the politics!
Adam ant...you are right it is a great airline,however it all lies in the knowlwedge of the crew..the wiser you are the more are a threat and the more information you have the more you want to challenge them. Why do you think they employ fresh new and YOUNG faces- not all young crew are ignorant, but the company is not exactly pro FAAA, so new crew are left to find out about the vices themselves and that's not always easy until you've been on line a while ...
good luck and my thoughts and prayers are with you all..i know how hard you all work !
Adam ant...you are right it is a great airline,however it all lies in the knowlwedge of the crew..the wiser you are the more are a threat and the more information you have the more you want to challenge them. Why do you think they employ fresh new and YOUNG faces- not all young crew are ignorant, but the company is not exactly pro FAAA, so new crew are left to find out about the vices themselves and that's not always easy until you've been on line a while ...
good luck and my thoughts and prayers are with you all..i know how hard you all work !
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Thanks wingletts - hopefully crew will READ the EBA and we will stick together if they try to screw us.
Like you said its sad about all the BS and politics. I'm not sure the company realise all the good ones seem to quit! I don't know how many times I have been on a trip with a first rate crew only to learn that 1/2 of them are leaving or thinking of leaving. It makes me sad to see such talented people go to waste.
Like you said its sad about all the BS and politics. I'm not sure the company realise all the good ones seem to quit! I don't know how many times I have been on a trip with a first rate crew only to learn that 1/2 of them are leaving or thinking of leaving. It makes me sad to see such talented people go to waste.
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The reason the FAAA did not attend the last round of forums
http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/domes...ba/vb10-06.htm
As members are aware, the FAAA is prepared to consider a constrained version of the CAP371 workrule set to meet the needs of both Virgin Blue and you as Cabin Crew.
At the end of May your negotiating team reported to members that June EBA meetings would include workrule negotiations.
While the process has been productive around modelling rosters using the new roster optimiser, to date we are not as advanced as we’d hoped on negotiations surrounding workrules.
The rosters we were going to show you in July were meant to be based on a constrained CAP371 to suit crew needs as reflected in the member surveys.
To date we haven’t reached agreement on any of these constraints.
Negotiations will continue and there is no reason to believe they will not continue in the same productive manner.
In August we hope to be able to show you a more definitive picture of a fatigue risk management system with workrules acceptable to Virgin Blue Cabin Crew members. In addition we would hope the negotiations have reached a point where we can also report back on Flexible Work Arrangements to enable Virgin Blue Cabin Crew members to get a clear view of all aspects a new EBA.
ENTERPRISE BARGAINING NEGOTIATIONS
FAAA WITHDRAW FROM JULY JOINT FORUMS
FAAA WITHDRAW FROM JULY JOINT FORUMS
UPDATE #12
THIS UPDATE IS TO INFORM MEMBERS THAT THE FAAA WILL NOT BE ATTENDING THE SCHEDULED JOINT JULY FORUMS IN MELBOURNE AND IN BRISBANE.
THIS UPDATE IS TO INFORM MEMBERS THAT THE FAAA WILL NOT BE ATTENDING THE SCHEDULED JOINT JULY FORUMS IN MELBOURNE AND IN BRISBANE.
As members are aware, the FAAA is prepared to consider a constrained version of the CAP371 workrule set to meet the needs of both Virgin Blue and you as Cabin Crew.
At the end of May your negotiating team reported to members that June EBA meetings would include workrule negotiations.
While the process has been productive around modelling rosters using the new roster optimiser, to date we are not as advanced as we’d hoped on negotiations surrounding workrules.
The rosters we were going to show you in July were meant to be based on a constrained CAP371 to suit crew needs as reflected in the member surveys.
To date we haven’t reached agreement on any of these constraints.
Negotiations will continue and there is no reason to believe they will not continue in the same productive manner.
In August we hope to be able to show you a more definitive picture of a fatigue risk management system with workrules acceptable to Virgin Blue Cabin Crew members. In addition we would hope the negotiations have reached a point where we can also report back on Flexible Work Arrangements to enable Virgin Blue Cabin Crew members to get a clear view of all aspects a new EBA.
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Food for Thought
Based on the above image which refers to Flight Duty Periods, taken from CAP 371: Avoidance of Fatigue in AirCrews Section C, Annex A, Page 10 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF) and cross referenced exactly with the table presented to us at the Forums, its fair to presume the following scenario could take place:
SIGN ON: 1755
DJ 642 BNE-PER 1855/2245
DJ 645 PER-BNE 0000/0610
SIGN OFF: 0640
How does one come to such a presumption? Looking at the table, you can see that a duty of 2 sectors that signs on between 1300/1759 local time for an acclimatised crew member (you are usually acclimatised when signing on at home base) the Flight Duty Period can be 12 1/4 hours. FDP, according to the July Forums info which is available in the CCDMs offices, is defined as "Sign On to Chocks On at Final Destination" ie it excludes sign off time.
The example above uses current blocked flight times, albeit with scheduled departure times slightly altered - which can be done, to bring the current 1855 sign on for DJ642BNEPER forward to 1755 and therefore extending the FDP crew can be rostered to. Times shown above are LOCAL times too - so dont forget that Perth is 2 hours behind EST (or 3 hours behind SYD/MEL etc in DST).
Any thoughts?
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Flew yesterday and with delays was exteneded out to 11 hours. I was absolutley shagged when I got home and that is just one day. I would hate to get a few of those in a row.
I wonder if the under CAP371 rules whether they have to clean aircraft and restock catering in the UK? This may also be another difference between what we experience in OZ and what they agreed to in the UK.
Also I would like to bring to BNE attention the fact that another 3 schools are starting in MEL within the coming weeks bolstering the number of non-union members into the fold. These people may be the votes that the company needs to get this over the line, remembering that only 51% is required for a majority. I am not sure what the total numbers of crew are now but would be guessing to say that MEL has the majority of crew seeing as they arent hiring in BNE and the attrition there must be as great as it is in MEL.
I will certainly be doing my best to make these new people aware of whats going on and offering up ways to join the union so as to be informed. Unfortunately some of them are just so happy to have the job and are on 6 months probabtion that they will just vote yes to toe the company line.
So I guess what I am saying is that for those of you who read this be nice about it but try and get these people to sign up and make them aware of whats going on. Dont ignore the floater from MEL because it maybe there vote we need in September.
I wonder if the under CAP371 rules whether they have to clean aircraft and restock catering in the UK? This may also be another difference between what we experience in OZ and what they agreed to in the UK.
Also I would like to bring to BNE attention the fact that another 3 schools are starting in MEL within the coming weeks bolstering the number of non-union members into the fold. These people may be the votes that the company needs to get this over the line, remembering that only 51% is required for a majority. I am not sure what the total numbers of crew are now but would be guessing to say that MEL has the majority of crew seeing as they arent hiring in BNE and the attrition there must be as great as it is in MEL.
I will certainly be doing my best to make these new people aware of whats going on and offering up ways to join the union so as to be informed. Unfortunately some of them are just so happy to have the job and are on 6 months probabtion that they will just vote yes to toe the company line.
So I guess what I am saying is that for those of you who read this be nice about it but try and get these people to sign up and make them aware of whats going on. Dont ignore the floater from MEL because it maybe there vote we need in September.
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I haven't been to any of the forums but heard that a change the company was considering was that there would be 13 rosters (28 days a month per roster) rather than the current 12 rosters a year, add to this that it was being considered that we would get 8 days off rather than 10.
If you do the math here
10 DDO x 12 = 120
8 DDO x 13 = 104
Even if we got 9 days per month off 9 DDO x 13 = 117
If they definately give us 10 days a month 10 x 13 = 130
As you can see if this is true and we go to a 28 day roster we are losing DDO's and working harder under the CAP.
Can anyone enlighten me or ask this question at the forums as I am on holidays for 4 weeks and will not be able to attend.
Cheers.
BHP
If you do the math here
10 DDO x 12 = 120
8 DDO x 13 = 104
Even if we got 9 days per month off 9 DDO x 13 = 117
If they definately give us 10 days a month 10 x 13 = 130
As you can see if this is true and we go to a 28 day roster we are losing DDO's and working harder under the CAP.
Can anyone enlighten me or ask this question at the forums as I am on holidays for 4 weeks and will not be able to attend.
Cheers.
BHP
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Hi BHP,
Its correct that under the new work rules we will be getting 13 x 28 Day rosters each year. So far they are saying it will be still 10 DDO's per month - what they are not yet sure of is how many hours we will be able to be rostered up to per month.
140 hours rostered in 18 days?
Its correct that under the new work rules we will be getting 13 x 28 Day rosters each year. So far they are saying it will be still 10 DDO's per month - what they are not yet sure of is how many hours we will be able to be rostered up to per month.
140 hours rostered in 18 days?
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Heres my math. 130 hours per 28 days which works out to be 13x10 hour shifts with 15 days off. Some of those 15 days off may be available days as we know them now. You denominate and you dont get called unless they want to mess around with your roster or you may leave them and get called out to collect some extra cash. Pretty straight forward and not to different to what goes on now.
Give me a copy of the EBA to look at the finer points. Until then its just opinion.
Give me a copy of the EBA to look at the finer points. Until then its just opinion.
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Without sounding cynical, I think its important that peoples decision to vote yes or no in this ballot is based on what IS gaurenteed - not what is a possibility... eg 10 days off per month (is what they are saying at this stage) is gaurenteed - sure these extra days off are a possibility, but its not in writing so therefore not gaurenteed that we will get them - so they are not obliged to give them to us... we ARE however obliged to abide by the workrules
Just my thoughts...
Just my thoughts...