QANTAS Discussions
Join Date: Mar 2006
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rattle a cage
Originally Posted by Bad Adventures
Spot on there Hawke Eye!
We may even get the odd San Fran! Bring it on I say.
We may even get the odd San Fran! Bring it on I say.
You know the company can change anything at it whim with the blessing of the association.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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its amazing how many of you dont realise what having no life or a foreseeable future is like!
Ask the jet* pilots. They got fed up with being given the run around by aipa. Look what they did about it. aipa and LHaul pilots aren't laughing now.
Bring it on. This isnt about job security its simply about a seniority system. To attempt to scaremonger with the words be carfeul whay you wish for is pathetically empty.Rather you should consider the phrase"be careful of keeping your head in the ground and hope this issue will dissappear magically by itself".
If I were you rattle Id be regretting past opportunities to correct a system that could have had some forms of compromise. I guess greed got the better of you, like some of our SHaul colleagues.
History tells me that previous commission decisions haven't always been what crew find popular. At the end of the day its the Law that will determine the outcome. A commission in a sense is only enforcing the law / legislation.
You better hope the FAAA push for a quick compromise before its too late, and you get to see what joburg back to back feels like.
Good luck to you ALL!
Ask the jet* pilots. They got fed up with being given the run around by aipa. Look what they did about it. aipa and LHaul pilots aren't laughing now.
Bring it on. This isnt about job security its simply about a seniority system. To attempt to scaremonger with the words be carfeul whay you wish for is pathetically empty.Rather you should consider the phrase"be careful of keeping your head in the ground and hope this issue will dissappear magically by itself".
If I were you rattle Id be regretting past opportunities to correct a system that could have had some forms of compromise. I guess greed got the better of you, like some of our SHaul colleagues.
History tells me that previous commission decisions haven't always been what crew find popular. At the end of the day its the Law that will determine the outcome. A commission in a sense is only enforcing the law / legislation.
You better hope the FAAA push for a quick compromise before its too late, and you get to see what joburg back to back feels like.
Good luck to you ALL!
Join Date: Nov 2005
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BID SYSTEM
hawke eye i am correct about most things, but thanks for your support, interestingly on this issue..... you see my point. 
Nothing like self-interest to bring about agreement with another person that you would normally disagree with, but that is legitimate.
Firstly, to lay my cards on the table, i generally support the bid system, even though i am junior in my category and always have been, because in a general sense some choice should always be more preferable to a Company determined system that has no choice and a system that would be open to manipulation.
Having said that, the fact is also that full time employment in Qantas has come to a standstill. Growth in jobs and turnover in people is essential to give a hope to junior people that "their time will come".
However , in the current environment, there appears little chance of that happenning.
It is entirely valid and appropriate that a review of the bid system be undertaken and the concept of having a review has general support amongst elected officials of the FAAA , on the basis that any changes would have to be supported by a majority of crew.
The current challenge by the S/H crew in the Federal Commission, demonstrates what happens if crew generally refuse to take a more flexible approach to the preferential bid system.
Ultimately, refusing to give those at the very bottom some "crumbs" at the very minimum (so to speak), will result in changes that may be forced upon us.
Let the Debate commence!!!
Nothing like self-interest to bring about agreement with another person that you would normally disagree with, but that is legitimate.
Firstly, to lay my cards on the table, i generally support the bid system, even though i am junior in my category and always have been, because in a general sense some choice should always be more preferable to a Company determined system that has no choice and a system that would be open to manipulation.
Having said that, the fact is also that full time employment in Qantas has come to a standstill. Growth in jobs and turnover in people is essential to give a hope to junior people that "their time will come".
However , in the current environment, there appears little chance of that happenning.
It is entirely valid and appropriate that a review of the bid system be undertaken and the concept of having a review has general support amongst elected officials of the FAAA , on the basis that any changes would have to be supported by a majority of crew.
The current challenge by the S/H crew in the Federal Commission, demonstrates what happens if crew generally refuse to take a more flexible approach to the preferential bid system.
Ultimately, refusing to give those at the very bottom some "crumbs" at the very minimum (so to speak), will result in changes that may be forced upon us.
Let the Debate commence!!!
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I firmly believe that crew and the FAAA need to be pro-active in bringing about change to the current rostering system if there is going to be any sort of reasonable outcome for us!
Sitting back - letting the company come up with the changes and then having to try fight them is a recipe for disaster.
The whole environment we work in has changed - the chances of any permanent fulltime Australian based recruitment in the forseeable future are fairly low i reckon which means the whole seniority based system and seniority progression has stalled.
Looking at my diagnostics for the current bid period - at my seniority, i had available to me 3 x AFR04, 1 x BOM06 and 1 x BOM07. I got those 3 Africas - plus a hefty lowline - but I bet you can guess what trips were available to early close on!!
So change..... I'm all for it!!!
Sitting back - letting the company come up with the changes and then having to try fight them is a recipe for disaster.
The whole environment we work in has changed - the chances of any permanent fulltime Australian based recruitment in the forseeable future are fairly low i reckon which means the whole seniority based system and seniority progression has stalled.
Looking at my diagnostics for the current bid period - at my seniority, i had available to me 3 x AFR04, 1 x BOM06 and 1 x BOM07. I got those 3 Africas - plus a hefty lowline - but I bet you can guess what trips were available to early close on!!
So change..... I'm all for it!!!
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Work Allocation....
A job,any job, is about earning wages to pay the bills and build a life style at home.
I have worked for an airline that has no seniority system and an allocated roster system...it sux big time.
No seniority ,no goal to obtain.Trips were still mainly crapp,no trip swapping/trading.
No bidding for holidays,they were allocated.
Believe me even with little choice it is better than no choice at all,which is what an allocated system is all about.
Sick leave increases enormously.
Those with children are screwed.
Its im possible to manage family life.
Still no guarantee of Christmas, birthdays,wedding or anniversaries off.
Now, you get a little of something.With allocated rosters you get nothing of nothing.
I don`t work for Qantas or any other airline.I had to leave the industry due to the allocated rostering system.
The bid system may not suit you now but it may in the future.
There a lot of senior crew who will leave in the next 2/3 years and Qantas is about to embark on some major network growth and make net gains in aircraft.
Remember it may not suit you now but it may in the future.
How many of you who are anti bid system/seniority will be here in 5years or ten years time.Probably none.
You will become the new visitors.
You are trying to destroy a system thatyou will only participate in for a short time.
The new IR laws will mean flight attendants will stay for 5 years and leave or become like American Airlines,where middle aged women whose children have left home do the job for some pocket money.
Lets have a conversation in 5 years about how you (Hawkeye et al)are surviving under a no seniority/allaocated work system.
Chances are,you won`t even be working for an airline.
You are foolish and naive to think that this change is a panacea for what you perceive to be shortcomings.
Flying is a job...nothing more nothing less.Just like any other occupation.
Unfortunately you guys are just as selfish as those you criticize.
You are rightly known as the "I/Me generation"concerned only with satisfying your own short term greed and need.
I have worked for an airline that has no seniority system and an allocated roster system...it sux big time.
No seniority ,no goal to obtain.Trips were still mainly crapp,no trip swapping/trading.
No bidding for holidays,they were allocated.
Believe me even with little choice it is better than no choice at all,which is what an allocated system is all about.
Sick leave increases enormously.
Those with children are screwed.
Its im possible to manage family life.
Still no guarantee of Christmas, birthdays,wedding or anniversaries off.
Now, you get a little of something.With allocated rosters you get nothing of nothing.
I don`t work for Qantas or any other airline.I had to leave the industry due to the allocated rostering system.
The bid system may not suit you now but it may in the future.
There a lot of senior crew who will leave in the next 2/3 years and Qantas is about to embark on some major network growth and make net gains in aircraft.
Remember it may not suit you now but it may in the future.
How many of you who are anti bid system/seniority will be here in 5years or ten years time.Probably none.
You will become the new visitors.
You are trying to destroy a system thatyou will only participate in for a short time.
The new IR laws will mean flight attendants will stay for 5 years and leave or become like American Airlines,where middle aged women whose children have left home do the job for some pocket money.
Lets have a conversation in 5 years about how you (Hawkeye et al)are surviving under a no seniority/allaocated work system.
Chances are,you won`t even be working for an airline.
You are foolish and naive to think that this change is a panacea for what you perceive to be shortcomings.
Flying is a job...nothing more nothing less.Just like any other occupation.
Unfortunately you guys are just as selfish as those you criticize.
You are rightly known as the "I/Me generation"concerned only with satisfying your own short term greed and need.
Last edited by watch your 6; 24th Mar 2006 at 07:00.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Qantas is the third airline I have worked for. The first airline (a major European flag carrier) had an allocated 'fair share' rostering system. The second airline had a purely allocated rostering system but then progressed to a rotating seniority system. Finally now I work under a seniority based preferential rostering system. I personally find this the most archaic way of doing things in my 17 years as a Flight Attendant.
It is a system that may work if there is a continual turnover of crew and continuing full time recruitment. This isn't happening at Qantas and doesn't look likely too under the current management.
Yes there is expansion on the horizon - but that means recruitment of more casuals, more overseas based crew and more contractors, it isn't going to change relative seniority.
Your global seniority may move upwards, if and when all of these senior crew start retiring, but it doesn't mean much if the number of people below you on the list doesn't also increase.
The fact is - the grass is always greener, and i'm not advocating abandoning the system entirely. I am in favour however of tweaking the system so it's a little fairer to the majority of crew
It is a system that may work if there is a continual turnover of crew and continuing full time recruitment. This isn't happening at Qantas and doesn't look likely too under the current management.
Yes there is expansion on the horizon - but that means recruitment of more casuals, more overseas based crew and more contractors, it isn't going to change relative seniority.
Your global seniority may move upwards, if and when all of these senior crew start retiring, but it doesn't mean much if the number of people below you on the list doesn't also increase.
The fact is - the grass is always greener, and i'm not advocating abandoning the system entirely. I am in favour however of tweaking the system so it's a little fairer to the majority of crew
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Why On Q ?
Why do you keep changing airlines?
Do you have children?
You like most other negative posters you probably don`t have a female partner,will never have and will therefore never have children.
What you are suggesting is outrageously discriminatory....Only young single childless people should fly.
We sacrificed 30% of our standown for this system and you and your ilk want to throw it away because you can`t get to SFO.Well neither can I and I don`t care.I do a lot of JoBurgs and the O/T I get makes for a fairly hefty take home pay.
Stop bitching and stop thinking only of yourself.
There are at least 4000 other fulltime crew in L/H and we just get on with it.
I suggest you do the same.
Do you have children?
You like most other negative posters you probably don`t have a female partner,will never have and will therefore never have children.
What you are suggesting is outrageously discriminatory....Only young single childless people should fly.
We sacrificed 30% of our standown for this system and you and your ilk want to throw it away because you can`t get to SFO.Well neither can I and I don`t care.I do a lot of JoBurgs and the O/T I get makes for a fairly hefty take home pay.
Stop bitching and stop thinking only of yourself.
There are at least 4000 other fulltime crew in L/H and we just get on with it.
I suggest you do the same.
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24 March 2006
Short Haul Enterprise Bargaining Agreement (EBA) 7
Dear Colleague,
As you will be aware the Short Haul EBA 7 was approved by a valid majority of Flight Attendants on 18 March 2006. As a result Qantas lodged an application for certification of the EBA by the Australian Industrial Relations Commission on Monday 20 March.
The EBA was listed for certification hearing on Thursday 23 March. During the certification hearing on Thursday the Commission made a decision to adjourn the hearing until 4 April 2006 to enable further consideration by the Commission. Until the EBA is certified by the Commission, which we are hopeful will occur on 4 April, the current EBA 6 remains in place. It is also important to note that the application for certification was made prior to the effective date of the new Workchoices legislation and therefore the EBA will still be able to be certified under the existing legislation regardless of the delay in the certification process.
Short Haul Enterprise Bargaining Agreement (EBA) 7
Dear Colleague,
As you will be aware the Short Haul EBA 7 was approved by a valid majority of Flight Attendants on 18 March 2006. As a result Qantas lodged an application for certification of the EBA by the Australian Industrial Relations Commission on Monday 20 March.
The EBA was listed for certification hearing on Thursday 23 March. During the certification hearing on Thursday the Commission made a decision to adjourn the hearing until 4 April 2006 to enable further consideration by the Commission. Until the EBA is certified by the Commission, which we are hopeful will occur on 4 April, the current EBA 6 remains in place. It is also important to note that the application for certification was made prior to the effective date of the new Workchoices legislation and therefore the EBA will still be able to be certified under the existing legislation regardless of the delay in the certification process.
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Watch Your 6
This is an open forum , which is great for it lets everyone have a say. What is disturbing is you no longer fly yet youy make the statement that there will be a lot of crew leaving in 3 yrs time. Is there something you know that we don't? You obviously don't fly for if you did you would know that these 60 something year olds who are currently flying have no intention of leaving in 3 years as you predict. They have no life! They have probably been divorced when it came close to their retirement age when their wives realised they would be home full time. Now they need the money and some company.
Let me tell you there is life without a roster. 20 years ago and well before, thats all that existed. Whats funny is crew(the 60 somethings still here) keep referring to them as the good old days. In fact they still managed to pay their mortgage and their bills.
For those who are junior they get no roster nor are they likey to have ANY choice whatsoever in the 3 years you predict. What if by some unimaginable possibility you are wrong. What are you prepared to say to those that believed everything would get better in 3 years?
This discussion is about real people and their very real lives. This seniority system is great for about 30 - 40%(im being generous) and lousy and unpredictable for 60 to 70%. THE MAJORITY!
As I said earlier, this is a forum for people to add their 2 cents worth but in this very real situation you left so your not the voice of someone who hasn't got a roster, never gets a roster and has flown for 15 years, your opinion to many of us is worth what you currently contribute to the company - NOTHING!
Watch your 6, You left and took your chances. In this case it is really beyond what any of us think. It comes down to how quick off the mark the FAAA is prepared to act and start a very quick dialogue with the company and the commission in an effort to work out some compromise. Or the FAAA could sit back and do nothing and we'll all just sit back and watch the show.
Pearl harbour, The Titanic, The poseidon adventure, I wonder what the most apt title would be? Lets hope the FAAA don't sit back and let it all dissolve. I would like to end by stating I actually support a modified seniority bid system, I also support some compromise and perhaps something which would remove these old farts and convince them there is life after Qantas.
Someone said earlier let the debate begin. Its way too late for talk. Let alone debate. What happens in the next few weeks will require action and leadership. While we are all debating in here, decisions will be handed down that will have serious consequences for all of us.Lets hope that there is some hope. either way I no longer care. What many senior people dont undertstand is many of us haven't had xmas, bdays etc off in years why should we care now,Get your heads around that!
This is an open forum , which is great for it lets everyone have a say. What is disturbing is you no longer fly yet youy make the statement that there will be a lot of crew leaving in 3 yrs time. Is there something you know that we don't? You obviously don't fly for if you did you would know that these 60 something year olds who are currently flying have no intention of leaving in 3 years as you predict. They have no life! They have probably been divorced when it came close to their retirement age when their wives realised they would be home full time. Now they need the money and some company.
Let me tell you there is life without a roster. 20 years ago and well before, thats all that existed. Whats funny is crew(the 60 somethings still here) keep referring to them as the good old days. In fact they still managed to pay their mortgage and their bills.
For those who are junior they get no roster nor are they likey to have ANY choice whatsoever in the 3 years you predict. What if by some unimaginable possibility you are wrong. What are you prepared to say to those that believed everything would get better in 3 years?
This discussion is about real people and their very real lives. This seniority system is great for about 30 - 40%(im being generous) and lousy and unpredictable for 60 to 70%. THE MAJORITY!
As I said earlier, this is a forum for people to add their 2 cents worth but in this very real situation you left so your not the voice of someone who hasn't got a roster, never gets a roster and has flown for 15 years, your opinion to many of us is worth what you currently contribute to the company - NOTHING!
Watch your 6, You left and took your chances. In this case it is really beyond what any of us think. It comes down to how quick off the mark the FAAA is prepared to act and start a very quick dialogue with the company and the commission in an effort to work out some compromise. Or the FAAA could sit back and do nothing and we'll all just sit back and watch the show.
Pearl harbour, The Titanic, The poseidon adventure, I wonder what the most apt title would be? Lets hope the FAAA don't sit back and let it all dissolve. I would like to end by stating I actually support a modified seniority bid system, I also support some compromise and perhaps something which would remove these old farts and convince them there is life after Qantas.
Someone said earlier let the debate begin. Its way too late for talk. Let alone debate. What happens in the next few weeks will require action and leadership. While we are all debating in here, decisions will be handed down that will have serious consequences for all of us.Lets hope that there is some hope. either way I no longer care. What many senior people dont undertstand is many of us haven't had xmas, bdays etc off in years why should we care now,Get your heads around that!
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Hawkeye FYI
My wife flies and I do her rosters.
She has 12 years seniority and she does ok with her roster.The status quo works for us.
Flying is changing because of technology and a few other things.The 60 plus will not be able to cope.There is movement coming whether you believe it or not.
Also FYI there are 45 crew members longhaul who are over 60..There are 3000 who have a seniority of less than 14 years.
A friend of my wifes started in 1992 and her seniority number is 2901.So the majority are not senior.Those with 20 years plus in longhaul are around 800 in number.
Do the maths..you are talking through your sphincter.(as usual)
She has 12 years seniority and she does ok with her roster.The status quo works for us.
Flying is changing because of technology and a few other things.The 60 plus will not be able to cope.There is movement coming whether you believe it or not.
Also FYI there are 45 crew members longhaul who are over 60..There are 3000 who have a seniority of less than 14 years.
A friend of my wifes started in 1992 and her seniority number is 2901.So the majority are not senior.Those with 20 years plus in longhaul are around 800 in number.
Do the maths..you are talking through your sphincter.(as usual)
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ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 7
DELAY IN CERTIFICATION
On 20 March 2006 the Association advised members (newsletter QF 11-06) the ballot result supporting the new Enterprise Agreement and an application would be made to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) for certification of the Agreement.
Following the application a hearing was set for 23 March 2006.
Prior to the commencement of certification proceedings a third party sought to intervene to stop the certification process on behalf of two Qantas Short Haul Flight Attendants. They argued that certification should be delayed to allow arguments to be put on behalf of their clients regarding alleged discriminatory clauses “rostering arrangements” within the proposed agreement.
Not withstanding opposition by the Association and Qantas to the intervention the Commission (AIRC) exercised discretion to allow the intervention and set further dates covering process and hearing. What is particularly disappointing about the delay in certification is the arguments mounted relate to pre-existing clauses and other avenues were available to these individuals.
Members need to be clear that your Association does not accept that the clauses are discriminatory and as such certification should proceed. We will strenuously oppose this application.
Members need to be aware that until the above matter has been resolved then the various initiatives, including pay increases, contained within the proposed agreement, cannot be implemented or actioned until certification has been granted by the AIRC.
Regardless of whether you supported the proposed agreement or not members should be confident that we will leave no stone unturned to ensure all your “rostering arrangements” are protected and not changed without you being given an opportunity to accept or reject change appropriately through the EBA process.
Your Association will keep you informed of any developments or future proceedings on this very important matter.
This newsletter was written and authorised by Darryl Watkins (Divisional Secretary) and John Playford (Manager Industrial Relations)
Hmmmmm always a worry when the agenda is taken out of your control.....
DELAY IN CERTIFICATION
On 20 March 2006 the Association advised members (newsletter QF 11-06) the ballot result supporting the new Enterprise Agreement and an application would be made to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) for certification of the Agreement.
Following the application a hearing was set for 23 March 2006.
Prior to the commencement of certification proceedings a third party sought to intervene to stop the certification process on behalf of two Qantas Short Haul Flight Attendants. They argued that certification should be delayed to allow arguments to be put on behalf of their clients regarding alleged discriminatory clauses “rostering arrangements” within the proposed agreement.
Not withstanding opposition by the Association and Qantas to the intervention the Commission (AIRC) exercised discretion to allow the intervention and set further dates covering process and hearing. What is particularly disappointing about the delay in certification is the arguments mounted relate to pre-existing clauses and other avenues were available to these individuals.
Members need to be clear that your Association does not accept that the clauses are discriminatory and as such certification should proceed. We will strenuously oppose this application.
Members need to be aware that until the above matter has been resolved then the various initiatives, including pay increases, contained within the proposed agreement, cannot be implemented or actioned until certification has been granted by the AIRC.
Regardless of whether you supported the proposed agreement or not members should be confident that we will leave no stone unturned to ensure all your “rostering arrangements” are protected and not changed without you being given an opportunity to accept or reject change appropriately through the EBA process.
Your Association will keep you informed of any developments or future proceedings on this very important matter.
This newsletter was written and authorised by Darryl Watkins (Divisional Secretary) and John Playford (Manager Industrial Relations)
Hmmmmm always a worry when the agenda is taken out of your control.....
Join Date: Jul 2004
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As Always
Shorthaul.....The weakest Link
Not only are we attacked by management but now we have 2 selfish pratts from shorthaul about to destroy what little we have left.
After this will the only thing left is the slip formula.
If that goes then TJF well and truly
What is most galling it is about to be done by individuals who won`t be here in 5 years.
PUBLISH THEIR NAMES!!!!!!
If not here, then somewhere else
Not only are we attacked by management but now we have 2 selfish pratts from shorthaul about to destroy what little we have left.
After this will the only thing left is the slip formula.
If that goes then TJF well and truly
What is most galling it is about to be done by individuals who won`t be here in 5 years.
PUBLISH THEIR NAMES!!!!!!
If not here, then somewhere else
Last edited by argusmoon; 24th Mar 2006 at 10:19.
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Simon Templar
To use one of your quotes "play the ball, not the man"
I don't see anything discriminatory in my post. Nowhere have I suggested that only young, single, childless people should fly... If that were the case - i wouldn't be flying myself.
If anyone is being discriminatory - it's you, suggesting that "like most other negative posters you probably don`t have a female partner,will never have and will therefore never have children." ie. gay! (Not that there's anything wrong with that)!
Neither am I bitching - i'm advocating change.
I love my job, I love this industry and one of the main things I love about it is that it is dynamic.
It also means that we - as crew, as an integral part of this industry have to be prepared to change with it. What worked 10 years ago (or whenever the current rostering system was introduced) may not work now!
If we aren't prepared to be pro-active about change - then we are going to have it imposed on us... and I know which road i'd rather go down.
I joined this airline knowing the system i was entering and am more than happy to fly the trips i get. But the fact is - it will change whether we like it or not and i'd rather we as crew had some input on the way it changes so that it does benefit the majority - and I truely don't see anything selfish in that!
(and as an aside - yeah, I do a lot of Jobergs - obviously. I honestly don't understand why they are so unpopular. The overtime is good - they are generally a very sociable/fun trip and there is a pretty decent stand down time... It would be nice to have a bit of variety occassionally though)!
That is about as bitchy as I get!
I don't see anything discriminatory in my post. Nowhere have I suggested that only young, single, childless people should fly... If that were the case - i wouldn't be flying myself.
If anyone is being discriminatory - it's you, suggesting that "like most other negative posters you probably don`t have a female partner,will never have and will therefore never have children." ie. gay! (Not that there's anything wrong with that)!
Neither am I bitching - i'm advocating change.
I love my job, I love this industry and one of the main things I love about it is that it is dynamic.
It also means that we - as crew, as an integral part of this industry have to be prepared to change with it. What worked 10 years ago (or whenever the current rostering system was introduced) may not work now!
If we aren't prepared to be pro-active about change - then we are going to have it imposed on us... and I know which road i'd rather go down.
I joined this airline knowing the system i was entering and am more than happy to fly the trips i get. But the fact is - it will change whether we like it or not and i'd rather we as crew had some input on the way it changes so that it does benefit the majority - and I truely don't see anything selfish in that!
(and as an aside - yeah, I do a lot of Jobergs - obviously. I honestly don't understand why they are so unpopular. The overtime is good - they are generally a very sociable/fun trip and there is a pretty decent stand down time... It would be nice to have a bit of variety occassionally though)!
That is about as bitchy as I get!
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Watch your 6,
You still don't get it!
This topic isn't about how you percieve the seniority system or what hope YOU have for its future.Or whether you think I talk out of my sphincter( which we are all probably guilty of to some degree from time to time), or that it works ok for your wife.
Pegasus got it right when he said its a worry when the agenda is taken out of your control! That is the issue!
The seniority system is currently being decided upon not by what we think here. What we think is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the commission determines. What is relevant is what the FAAA can do to intervene.
After reading Pegasus post I am very concerned. It appears rather than attempt to negotiate a compromise which is what I believe most commissions look to, the Short Haul FAAA stated they intend to fight it.
The FAAA need to hire a serious bunch of lawyers and get some realistic opinion defining what place seniority, and how the allocation of work in relation to seniority stands; within the current work environment today and how the law views it. They might also get difinitive opinion on what is considered discrimination and whether it bears any relevance.
I wonder if deciding to fight this the S Haul FAAA have already got their legal opinion?
History suggests that Long Haul FAAA should not wait to see what Short Haul FAAA does. Lets hope the FAAA Long Haul are all over this and treat it with the seriousness it deserves. As stated earlier i would like to see change but only change brought about with the involvement of the Long Haul FAAA on all our behalfs.Despite what many have said in the past about our union leadership and our petty squabbles from time to time I have faith that our current leadership will prove themselves up to the challenge.
It will certainly put there abilities to the test and their reputations on the line.Whatever we all may think of different individuals you should all be thinking right now that we are lucky to have a strong leadership of the Long Haul FAAA.Lets hope they can salvage something out of this.
If Short Haul are fighting this issue just for the sake of protecting conditions and standing on their principilled dig when the goal posts have obviously moved then that is the same mentality that got us in this situation.Let us hope FAAA Long Haul initiative prevails!
You still don't get it!
This topic isn't about how you percieve the seniority system or what hope YOU have for its future.Or whether you think I talk out of my sphincter( which we are all probably guilty of to some degree from time to time), or that it works ok for your wife.
Pegasus got it right when he said its a worry when the agenda is taken out of your control! That is the issue!
The seniority system is currently being decided upon not by what we think here. What we think is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the commission determines. What is relevant is what the FAAA can do to intervene.
After reading Pegasus post I am very concerned. It appears rather than attempt to negotiate a compromise which is what I believe most commissions look to, the Short Haul FAAA stated they intend to fight it.
The FAAA need to hire a serious bunch of lawyers and get some realistic opinion defining what place seniority, and how the allocation of work in relation to seniority stands; within the current work environment today and how the law views it. They might also get difinitive opinion on what is considered discrimination and whether it bears any relevance.
I wonder if deciding to fight this the S Haul FAAA have already got their legal opinion?
History suggests that Long Haul FAAA should not wait to see what Short Haul FAAA does. Lets hope the FAAA Long Haul are all over this and treat it with the seriousness it deserves. As stated earlier i would like to see change but only change brought about with the involvement of the Long Haul FAAA on all our behalfs.Despite what many have said in the past about our union leadership and our petty squabbles from time to time I have faith that our current leadership will prove themselves up to the challenge.
It will certainly put there abilities to the test and their reputations on the line.Whatever we all may think of different individuals you should all be thinking right now that we are lucky to have a strong leadership of the Long Haul FAAA.Lets hope they can salvage something out of this.
If Short Haul are fighting this issue just for the sake of protecting conditions and standing on their principilled dig when the goal posts have obviously moved then that is the same mentality that got us in this situation.Let us hope FAAA Long Haul initiative prevails!
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Originally Posted by Simon Templar
Why do you keep changing airlines?
Do you have children?
You like most other negative posters you probably don`t have a female partner,will never have and will therefore never have children.
What you are suggesting is outrageously discriminatory....Only young single childless people should fly.:
Do you have children?
You like most other negative posters you probably don`t have a female partner,will never have and will therefore never have children.
What you are suggesting is outrageously discriminatory....Only young single childless people should fly.:
I too have a wife and kids but that is my choice and I do not expect the system to be built around my choice of having a family, I decided to have kids and therefore I will pay for them !I think we have a fair go with rebates and our tax as we have a family.
Single people pay the more tax and do not get the dollars and cents back that we do! Half of my Friends both male and female are single and or chose not to have kids and I think they would find your comments disturbing.
Anyway regardless what any of us think, now that the can of worms has been opened by the 2 short haul f/a things are going to change whether we like them or not!
Last edited by cartexchange; 25th Mar 2006 at 01:06.
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BID SYSTEM
Firstly, hawke eye i congratulate you on your last post. Despite your provocative remarks at times, (to which i will always respond to credit should be given where it is deserved, and your last post sums up the situation very well.
Also, we do have petty squabbles both in this forum and outside it, amongst crew, however your comments about the L/H FAAA leadership are appreciated, even though at times you take your swipe at them, from my perspective indeservedly.
Back to the point however, Eden99 has also described the issue very well... i.e. we have reached a point where it is appropriate that amendments to the bid system be considered by crew.
This doesn't mean that there will be unilateral changes agreed to by the FAAA, I am not suggesting that, but what i am suggesting is that the time has come that crew in L/H be at least asked whether they continue to by majority to support the system as it is or if crew by majority want some alternatives to be examined in the form of changes to the current system that will make it more equitable for all.
Continuing to be in denial and asserting that everyone will get the benefit of the current arrangements "in time" does not wash any longer.
Since 2002,there has been no full time recruitment in L/H and any recruitment in the forseeable future looks bleak.
In these circumstances, there is no valiod argument that a system that gives everything to a few and hardly anything to a much larger group, can be considered fair.
The question for all of us to decide then, is whether we are prepared to continue to prop up an unfair system.
So there is no confusion, i am junior in my category but have strongly supported the bid system. However, realities have to be confronted and the recent legislative changes that will give more power to the employer and the current challenge to the bid system in the Commission give extreme urgency to the need for a re-evaluation.
The L/H FAAA senior leadership is closely monitoring the situation and hawk eye and everyone else can be assured our best efforts will be made to ensure that control over this issue is not taken away from us by other parties like the Commission.
What this also demonstrates, in spectacular terms , is what happens when we are not flexible and others then drive the agenda.
Perhaps the call by the senior leadership of the L/H FAAA to be flexible over the JFK dispensation in order to protect flying and generally the need to be flexible in all arenas is now starting to make sense to the critics.
If flexibility, in light of this almost authoritarian industrial regime that we live in, is not demonstrated, then pressure will mount from other sources to impose change on us....i.e. the current bid system challenge in the Federal Industrial Commission.
Also to pre-empt some in here who demand nonsense of the FAAA L/H....... there will not necessarily be much official comment from the L/H FAAA on this sensitive issue,as it may prejudice matters.
Rest assured however, that leadership will be shown on this issue just as it was on the JFK issue. Leadership is not always about doing what appears to be popular, it's about doing what is required to protect the members' interests.
credit should be given where it is deserved, and your last post sums up the situation very well.Also, we do have petty squabbles both in this forum and outside it, amongst crew, however your comments about the L/H FAAA leadership are appreciated, even though at times you take your swipe at them, from my perspective indeservedly.
Back to the point however, Eden99 has also described the issue very well... i.e. we have reached a point where it is appropriate that amendments to the bid system be considered by crew.
This doesn't mean that there will be unilateral changes agreed to by the FAAA, I am not suggesting that, but what i am suggesting is that the time has come that crew in L/H be at least asked whether they continue to by majority to support the system as it is or if crew by majority want some alternatives to be examined in the form of changes to the current system that will make it more equitable for all.
Continuing to be in denial and asserting that everyone will get the benefit of the current arrangements "in time" does not wash any longer.
Since 2002,there has been no full time recruitment in L/H and any recruitment in the forseeable future looks bleak.
In these circumstances, there is no valiod argument that a system that gives everything to a few and hardly anything to a much larger group, can be considered fair.
The question for all of us to decide then, is whether we are prepared to continue to prop up an unfair system.
So there is no confusion, i am junior in my category but have strongly supported the bid system. However, realities have to be confronted and the recent legislative changes that will give more power to the employer and the current challenge to the bid system in the Commission give extreme urgency to the need for a re-evaluation.
The L/H FAAA senior leadership is closely monitoring the situation and hawk eye and everyone else can be assured our best efforts will be made to ensure that control over this issue is not taken away from us by other parties like the Commission.
What this also demonstrates, in spectacular terms , is what happens when we are not flexible and others then drive the agenda.
Perhaps the call by the senior leadership of the L/H FAAA to be flexible over the JFK dispensation in order to protect flying and generally the need to be flexible in all arenas is now starting to make sense to the critics.
If flexibility, in light of this almost authoritarian industrial regime that we live in, is not demonstrated, then pressure will mount from other sources to impose change on us....i.e. the current bid system challenge in the Federal Industrial Commission.
Also to pre-empt some in here who demand nonsense of the FAAA L/H....... there will not necessarily be much official comment from the L/H FAAA on this sensitive issue,as it may prejudice matters.
Rest assured however, that leadership will be shown on this issue just as it was on the JFK issue. Leadership is not always about doing what appears to be popular, it's about doing what is required to protect the members' interests.
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For once guardian I agree with you 100% that we should initiate the changes!
Not QF.
but dont push it about leadership on the JFK issue, we shall leave that one to rest.........for a while!
Not QF.
but dont push it about leadership on the JFK issue, we shall leave that one to rest.........for a while!
Last edited by cartexchange; 25th Mar 2006 at 03:35.