QANTAS Discussions

[cartexchange]

on another note!
during this time of great short haul upheaval ...... where is your president....here is a quote from a newsletter just in case you have forgotten...

Some members may be aware that the FAAA Domestic/Regional Divisional President Jo Ann Davidson has taken leave of absence to take up a position in the Qantas London Base

if you want the full new sheet here is the link........

http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/domes...al/qf09-05.htm

[radiation junkie]

Regardess of what will happen with the "bidding system", we must realise that the amount of L/H flying has been drastically reduced over the past couple of years. This will continue as J* int. (and S/H)takes more and more over. This is probably the one thing that has affected the ability to bid successfully the most. I am not adverse to some change, but again it should be initiated by us and the FAAA. The S/H situation is regrettable, but bound to happen considering the general mentality of the senior S/H crew. Yes, I have over 25 years up as L/H FA and still enjoy the job. Yes, I get what I want, but still don't really, because there is less and less to bid on. This is the real enemy, the fact that we are loosing flying, not the bid system it self.
Over the next 5 years J* will be doing Rome/Frankfurt/Paris/Athens and they are looking at HNL/San Fran as well as China.
With the new IR laws, Qantas will be able to force intercompany transfers. If they think there is 200 excess crew in L/H, they will send out a "form" letter .
"You are now employed by J*int. These are your new wages/working conditions/hours of flying. Please sign here and a date will be allotted to collect your new uniform. " Thank you for your continued support, GD.
Identify the real enemy, not random pokes at senior crew and the bidding system.

[yellow flag]

take it easy

HAWKE EYE
you seem to be very dismissive of senior cabin crew.your comments are discusting, a generalisation, inaccurate, and incorrect.
"They have no life! They have probably been divorced when it came close to their retirement age when their wives realised they would be home full time. Now they need the money and some company." justify that statement to those members you are vilifying.i doubt you would survive the onslaught.
"In fact they still managed to pay their mortgage and their bills." probably they did,maybe because they were not forced to take LSL CONTINUOUSLY,and received a decent salary.
PLEASE,(although you seem to call this forum your own,by the many posts you make) Research your facts,dont generalise,and dont tell those folk you seem to want to attack how to run their lives.

[yellow flag]

bidding system

if you want to change the bidding system,which is working to our advantage.then change it.
the result you will get will be to the qf advantage,trust me, i'm a flight attendant.
ok.for those of you on this site who want to change things,answer the questions,honestly.
1/what do you really want?
2/what are you prepared to give up?
3/what will you really gain?
4/do you want to be fair?
5/so you want a fairer bidding system?
6/senior f/a's MUST give up some of their trips to give you better flying?
7/what are you going to give in return????
8/this is about being fair.is it not!
9/what about all the trips that the "mid seniority f/a's are enjoying now"they would all be gone.to make up hours.
10/the fathers/mothers club would be very upset with a different system
11/"'newtons law'"NOTHING,is either created nor destroyed.
12/SO,if you wanna take something,you must give something.
13/what are you prepared to relinquish to change the seniority system

[hawke eye]

Yellow flag,
have you ever read the posts on hear before?
Quite often with these serious issues many throw in a little tongue in cheek humour.I myself have fallen victim to it, So i appreciate your feelings.
If I offended any senior people re my humour please accept my apologies.
By the same token yellow flag have a chat to the junior people who are not all that happy with people flying when they are 60 +.
It cant be that healthy.Nor is it giving others a go. There are quite a few(not all) of those past 60 who are past it. Particularly some CSMs who seem never to get out of their seat and still don't know what hands on means.
Some CSMs(not all) think paperwork means reading the telegraph.

Sigh of relief for comments by guardian! oh by the way guardian have you ever been deservedly criticised-legitimate question ,anyway for those criticsof of L Haul officials , Im glad we have our guys working on this and keeping an eye on it as opposed to S Haul officials.
By the way I dont own this site and i take offence that you criticise any efforts by individuals who wish to participate in this forum. Or is that alright for you to throw insults yellow flag.
Check the post numbers you'll see compared to many i haven't posted nearly as much as some other participants.

[lowerlobe]

“i am correct about most things….” A quote from Plagiarism99….it’s good to see humbleness is alive and well with our faaa reps.

No wonder the faaa does not think it is neccessary to hold meetings or discuss options with the members..

By all means discuss this issue but let’s keep our eye on the ball and remember who the real problem is…his name is Darth and he is very good at divisive tactics.

[sydney s/h]

You'll have to excuse the ignorance here...but what is this whole stall on the EBA thing and the 2 shorthaul F/A's??

What are they challenging?

Myself and the rest of my crew today have no idea what it is all about. No one has told us sqwat.

Anyone shed some light?

[cartexchange]

sydney s/h

call the short haul FAAA they will tell you!
if there is no answer try calling Jo in London!

[lowerlobe]

It’s very poor when crew have to look at the internet to find news that is important rather than either of the faaa websites….

[hawke eye]

Sydney S/H

go to page 6 and look up the post by pegasus 747. He has posted a news sheet from short haul faaa explaining the situation.
They refer to it as discrimination over rostering or words to that affect.
In short two flight attendants who didn't like the way the vote went last year(I assume) are not happy about doing reserve line back to back.

In long haul we share it EQUALLY.

What the issue here is that everone is sh_.tt#$# themselves about what the repercussions, ramifications, potential fallout and where this could lead in relation to the seniority bid system for both Long and Short Haul.

Oh yess, plenty to worry about when we all have to wonder whether a commission will rule on whether allocation of work by seniority is discriminatory or not.

If there are any cabin crew who are former legal eagles or married to someone of legal expertise or know someone they can get an opinion for free(big ask i know), perhaps you could give us an informed opinion of what a likely outcome could be taking into consideration what I have outlined above. That would be great.

[sydney s/h]

Still doesnt make sense.... the new EBA doesn't have you doing reserve back to back...regardless of seniority. CSM's still do but that was always the case. We had a vote on the rotational reserve system last year for CSM's (as there is a approx 10-11yr wait to get a roster in SYD) and the selfish snr's decided they didnt want to do 1 month of reserve every 12mths.
Apparently after being a CSM for 10yrs some people think you still have to "do your time".
Always a selfish few...it will come back to bite them.

And yes, i saw the post re the 2 S/H crew, but it says discrimination blah blah...about what though?! Rostering?? What about it?

[onQ]

That's the million dollar question?... what is it all about? To quote the FAAAdomestic website

"On 20 March 2006 the Association advised members (newsletter QF 11-06) the ballot result supporting the new Enterprise Agreement and an application would be made to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) for certification of the Agreement
Following the application a hearing was set for 23 March 2006.
Prior to the commencement of certification proceedings a third party sought to intervene to stop the certification process on behalf of two Qantas Short Haul Flight Attendants. They argued that certification should be delayed to allow arguments to be put on behalf of their clients regarding alleged discriminatory clauses “rostering arrangements” within the proposed agreement.

What exactly do they mean by 'rostering arrangements'. We're all drawing conclusions from that phrase.....

Neither the company nor the union have elaborated on what that objection is....

I'm also guessing that this objection has been raised by two very cluey F/As, or two F/As with a legal background, or two F/As with access to legal representation...

The key phrase here is 'a third party on behalf of two flight attendants'

Conspiracy theory - who would have the most to gain from the scrapping of the seniority system???

Is it about the seniority system at all? Does it relate to the 'right' to bid for reserve as a F/A?

Is it any co-incidence that the new industrial relation laws take effect today?

Personally - I haven't got a clue what's going on here - but I smell a rat....

Discuss!!

[lurker@R5]

turning up at a rally

Guardian - for starters - leadership is about turning up and being there for the troops -not infringing MBT and clearing pay protection by working out of category.
2 precedents the Company would just love to establish.
Senior Company management have lost all credibility because they are a "do as I say not as I do" regime - know anybody else that plays this game?

[priapism]

I would be interested to know if the 2 F/A's who have launched this legal challenge are acting solo or are front people for a larger group.

If they are in fact launching an attack on seniority it will create major problems . I remember from my time at another airline which had a seniority based system that our union executive dreaded any legal challenge to the seniority system as they knew it would be very difficult to defend in court.

Interesting times ahead for you.

[qcc2]

take a procactive stand

it seems the time has come for the faaa lh to set an example (the shire fishing club might not agree on that one) and proacticely canvasse alternate options for lh cabincrew before a legal challenge will put them in a corner. it might not be a perfect sytem/ addition but it would certainly improve the current limited options.
my advise would be
1) instant trip swap system online. with set rules which cannot be interfered, like MPT, no interference from operations,etc. this would also give cabin crew flexibility to add extra hours as long as it does not interfere with the above rules. lets face it there are still a number of cabin crew out there who do well in excess of 200 hrs. and they do it by infringing their mpt (yes you too, faaa official)
2) limit the number of trips you can make in one bid period. leets say only 3 lax per bid period. yes , sorry old chaps that would mean you have to explore another bar/burger joint somewhere else.
just kicking the ball along. certainly any changes need fine tuning, but you are better of controlling the ball then someone else.

germany just raise their retirement age for cabin crew to 65. BA is proposing to move it from 55 to 65 as well. the rest of europa will follow. in the US you have already the flying RSL.

[Pegasus747]

The Problem with any challenge to the system will not be whether it is fair on not but whether it offends the provisions of the IR Act.

Whilst the current method of work allocation for LH/SH flight attendants and Pilots may not be entirely fair , it will come down to whether it is discriminatory at law.

Tinkering with the system will not address the issue of its discriminatory nature per se.

Those who participate in this forum may need to consider that the only true "NON DISCRIMINATORY" system of work allocaction is one of complete randomness where nobody gets any more choice than anyone else.

OR


One where People with families get priority for instance.

To be quite honest the law is an ass at the best of times. Be careful what you wish for you just might get it!

I dont see Qantas wanting to introduce any equity or fairness in anything that that have done to date and the new IR laws are about empowering employers and not employees...

As i said be careful what you wish for. If you all want equality under the law then you all need to be given exactly the same to achieve it . and that is EQUAL NO CHOICE TO ALL

[Guardian1]

lurker@R5

I don't need to be lectured about leadership from you lurker, particularly when i am not the person you assume i am.

I was at the meeting you refer to, but just like most of your comments in here, your assumptions about my identity are also wrong.

Please don't start your crap about "precedents" because you have demonstrated repeatedly you have very little idea about some of the issues you comment on.

Rest assured, the leadership of the L/H FAAA, however, do understand the issues.

Also, most cabin crew unlike you lurker. know that the current L/H FAAA leadership are the best that we have ever had.

[qcc2]

stop the self promotion

guardy i must say you do carry on with your faaa's self promotion. lets look at the latest faaa newsletter "Repairing years of neglect and mismanagement of the FAAA both industrially and financially was a top personal priority of your elected officials ". i remember MM and AS where both part of last years excecutive. here you have it. admitting to mismanagement and neglect.

[hawke eye]

Guardian,
your quote "this leadership is the best the members have ever had", whilst true, it's not a good look comparing yourself to past officials and leaders.
Yes there was the occassional passion and spirit shown by some (not herr JB - Im referering to others with some ability previous to her).

However they let their passion get the better of them when they belittled anyone who offered a contrary opinion to their view or aggressively attacked any who dared criticise them at union meetings.Any ability or good leadership shown by those former leaders who have now left our ranks was forgotten and overshadowed by their public display of rudeness and arrogance which I was unfortunate to witness against poor unsuspecting individuals on many occassion.

Belittling people who ask questions at meetings(which is their right) was a way of showing strength and power. A very poor one! keep up the good work guardian. Lets hope your legacy is something which is vastly more comparable to those before you.It shouldn't be too hard.
As they say The proof is in the pudding!

[hawke eye]

QCC2
I think Guardy was referring to years of neglect and mismanagement by previous leadership of the LH FAAA.
Many crew felt there was plenty of that. In fact to such a degree that popular crew who were leaders of the FAAA were heavily voted out of office.A no smile day was just one miniscule embarrassing laughable example. At least I still get a laugh thinking about it today.QCC2 probably not a good idea comparing them to former officials I at least (I know many others agree) did not have a ver high opinion of the former - past leadership of the FAA. If we still had them we'd still be renting