QF LCC, Erosion of condition, and the FAAA
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Better start thinking how you can help the union achieve your (common) aims, because if everyone continues with the union sniping and me, me, me, you will lose.
For those that disagree, please tell let us what the next best alternative action would be. I am very interested to know.
I have just re read that last line and it could be taken sarcastically - however, it is not intended to be. I am just genuinely interested in other peoples thoughts and ideas. It is all perfectly fine to have your opinions and differences, but from what I am reading and hearing loud and clear is that we are ALL after the same thing: The preservation of Jobs and Working Conditions. So, if we all agree on the same end results, why cant we put our differences aside but still come together as one to achieve this? IMHO, this is the only way it can be done and it has me COMPLETELY STUFFED as to why we (as a group) would choose to divide and dwindle away when we have the opportunity to stick together and fix this
WHY?
Genuine answers only please - I am in a mood!
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Ditzyboy
You are actually wrong on both accounts.... the famed 20 years to get to Japan is a complete urban myth ( it is true for the HNL trips 
). Crew within QF are currently regularly getting 6 day tokyo (narita) trips .... with less than two years seniority ( Perth base, just look at the crew lists).
Two years or less no flying line? You must be thinking of shorthaul - at longahul we have rotational reserve.... you get it every 14 months or so, the rest of the time you are on a flying line, you may get a low-line, but it is always a flying line unless your turn for reserve is up (regardless of seniority).
As for AO's wages, no offence to those doing it, but I wouldnt consider that to be decent money...... but it's all relative your individual circumstances. I doubt most long haul crew would consider it to be decent money though.
As for the Regional Flying in the new short haul EBA, as far as I am concerned ahort haul are welcome to the short international sectors, although whether they would want them is another factor...... they forgot to write things such as allowances, hotel accommodation standards overseas etc into the EBA..... if shorthaul are happy to float around Asia for six days, doing 14 hour sectors, without allowances and only earning DTA, well good luck to em
I agree, all divisions of the union should stick together, but alas I feel it is far too late for that.
Most long haul crew feel that the short haul union shafted us in their last EBA ..... if we transfer to short haul, we are now on a 'b scale' with no band payments. And the minimal support from the short haul FAAA during our 'stop work party' was noticed. Yes I agree with other posts on the lagalities of secondary boycotts, ......................but there are ways around that, if they really wanted to, the shorthaul union could have come up with some 'non-related help'
I have heard whispers that the long haul union is planning on distancing us from short haul even further, by cancelling the divisional transfer agreement.
The belief is that there will shortly be nowhere to transfer to (becasue of the LCC eventually taking most current shorthaul routes), and even if you can get a transfer to short haul, you are now on less pay to those crew in short haul junior to you, why bother?
Plus there is the 'payback factor' , the shorthaul union agreed to let the long haul crew be forced onto a no-bands 'b' scale if they transferred to shorthaul, so why let shorthaul transfer into our division, and get the same conditions as us?
If the cancellation of the divisional transfer agreement happens, it would be sad ..... but unfortunatlely the short haul union fired the first shot by allowing long haul to get shafted in the last EBA. They have to expect the long haul union to adopt a less than 'helpful' approach to the short haul people, when they are facing the certain problems the new LCC will bring.
Having said that, I have flown in both divisions, and hope it all works out for the short haul guys.
How senior was a Japan trip before the flying went to AO? 20 years? It's now 30! I have heard most cabin crew at LH with two year's seniority don't even have a flying line. That's not good for the bank balance.
). Crew within QF are currently regularly getting 6 day tokyo (narita) trips .... with less than two years seniority ( Perth base, just look at the crew lists).Two years or less no flying line? You must be thinking of shorthaul - at longahul we have rotational reserve.... you get it every 14 months or so, the rest of the time you are on a flying line, you may get a low-line, but it is always a flying line unless your turn for reserve is up (regardless of seniority).
As for AO's wages, no offence to those doing it, but I wouldnt consider that to be decent money...... but it's all relative your individual circumstances. I doubt most long haul crew would consider it to be decent money though.
As for the Regional Flying in the new short haul EBA, as far as I am concerned ahort haul are welcome to the short international sectors, although whether they would want them is another factor...... they forgot to write things such as allowances, hotel accommodation standards overseas etc into the EBA..... if shorthaul are happy to float around Asia for six days, doing 14 hour sectors, without allowances and only earning DTA, well good luck to em
I agree, all divisions of the union should stick together, but alas I feel it is far too late for that.
Most long haul crew feel that the short haul union shafted us in their last EBA ..... if we transfer to short haul, we are now on a 'b scale' with no band payments. And the minimal support from the short haul FAAA during our 'stop work party' was noticed. Yes I agree with other posts on the lagalities of secondary boycotts, ......................but there are ways around that
, if they really wanted to, the shorthaul union could have come up with some 'non-related help'I have heard whispers that the long haul union is planning on distancing us from short haul even further, by cancelling the divisional transfer agreement.
The belief is that there will shortly be nowhere to transfer to (becasue of the LCC eventually taking most current shorthaul routes), and even if you can get a transfer to short haul, you are now on less pay to those crew in short haul junior to you, why bother?
Plus there is the 'payback factor' , the shorthaul union agreed to let the long haul crew be forced onto a no-bands 'b' scale if they transferred to shorthaul, so why let shorthaul transfer into our division, and get the same conditions as us?
If the cancellation of the divisional transfer agreement happens, it would be sad ..... but unfortunatlely the short haul union fired the first shot by allowing long haul to get shafted in the last EBA. They have to expect the long haul union to adopt a less than 'helpful' approach to the short haul people, when they are facing the certain problems the new LCC will bring.
Having said that, I have flown in both divisions, and hope it all works out for the short haul guys.
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Ah yes how comforting that things haven't changed since I left the big QF.
When I first started flying it was the boys against the girls, the "good old days before bidding for rosters" against seniority and bidding, then it was everyone against the "old girls" coming back at same seniority, then it was P/C against J/C and Y/C, then it was seniors against juniors, then it was everyone against any language speaker that got a better trip than them, then it was all SYD based crew against the BKK and AKL basings, and of course we'll never get rid of the true classics of them against us i.e the company, the passengers, the other departments, long haul versus short haul, short haul versus regional blah blah blah.
Lets face it this industry breeds contempt and mistrust and in the end everyone fights so hard to keep what they feel is important and we all end up losing sight of the big picture. Nothing like a big boot up the proverbial to get everyone back on track. I agree when Reith and Howard got their ways the industry was never going to be the same. Some time should be spent on working out how to make the system work for everybody rather than all these individuals clawing at keeping things "the same".
Times are changing, stick together or we all end up losing.
When I first started flying it was the boys against the girls, the "good old days before bidding for rosters" against seniority and bidding, then it was everyone against the "old girls" coming back at same seniority, then it was P/C against J/C and Y/C, then it was seniors against juniors, then it was everyone against any language speaker that got a better trip than them, then it was all SYD based crew against the BKK and AKL basings, and of course we'll never get rid of the true classics of them against us i.e the company, the passengers, the other departments, long haul versus short haul, short haul versus regional blah blah blah.
Lets face it this industry breeds contempt and mistrust and in the end everyone fights so hard to keep what they feel is important and we all end up losing sight of the big picture. Nothing like a big boot up the proverbial to get everyone back on track. I agree when Reith and Howard got their ways the industry was never going to be the same. Some time should be spent on working out how to make the system work for everybody rather than all these individuals clawing at keeping things "the same".
Times are changing, stick together or we all end up losing.
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Short Haul EBA
UpperDeckRight
re: Most long haul crew feel that the short haul union shafted us in their last EBA ..... if we transfer to short haul, we are now on a 'b scale' with no band payments. And the minimal support from the short haul FAAA during our 'stop work party' was noticed. Yes I agree with other posts on the lagalities of secondary boycotts, ......................but there are ways around that , if they really wanted to, the shorthaul union could have come up with some 'non-related help'
There seems to be a misunderstanding by long haul crew in relation to bands payments if you transfer over to short haul.
The fact is that if you come over you will receive a 13% shift loading REGARDLESS of what time of day/week you fly. Therefore if you work Mon-Fri flights (and lets face it most crew trns to short haul so they can get weekends off, do less overnights etc) you will get 13% loadings which current short haul crew DO NOT get. The only time you will lose out is if you work weekends when the loadings max out at 23%.
So if you bid not to work weekends and just day trips you will actually be making more than crew on the current EBA.
The long haul FAAA did put out a memo clarifying this a few months ago.
I voted no to the EBA. I could not believe the short haul union came to us with an unfinished document and advised us (READ PRESSURED US) to vote 'Yes'. The document left us wide open with statements such as 'Clause 15-regional flying Terms to be negotiated at a later date with the company' (not verbatim). However crew do not get to vote on any agreement the company and faaa decide on!
I have withdrawn my faaa membership as they only seem to represent a small portion of crew and have certainly never given me adequate responses to enquiries.
I will join the long haul faaa when I transfer over to long haul next Janaury. My feeling is the LH faaa support and back members and will stand up to the company when necessary.
re: Most long haul crew feel that the short haul union shafted us in their last EBA ..... if we transfer to short haul, we are now on a 'b scale' with no band payments. And the minimal support from the short haul FAAA during our 'stop work party' was noticed. Yes I agree with other posts on the lagalities of secondary boycotts, ......................but there are ways around that , if they really wanted to, the shorthaul union could have come up with some 'non-related help'
There seems to be a misunderstanding by long haul crew in relation to bands payments if you transfer over to short haul.
The fact is that if you come over you will receive a 13% shift loading REGARDLESS of what time of day/week you fly. Therefore if you work Mon-Fri flights (and lets face it most crew trns to short haul so they can get weekends off, do less overnights etc) you will get 13% loadings which current short haul crew DO NOT get. The only time you will lose out is if you work weekends when the loadings max out at 23%.
So if you bid not to work weekends and just day trips you will actually be making more than crew on the current EBA.
The long haul FAAA did put out a memo clarifying this a few months ago.
I voted no to the EBA. I could not believe the short haul union came to us with an unfinished document and advised us (READ PRESSURED US) to vote 'Yes'. The document left us wide open with statements such as 'Clause 15-regional flying Terms to be negotiated at a later date with the company' (not verbatim). However crew do not get to vote on any agreement the company and faaa decide on!
I have withdrawn my faaa membership as they only seem to represent a small portion of crew and have certainly never given me adequate responses to enquiries.
I will join the long haul faaa when I transfer over to long haul next Janaury. My feeling is the LH faaa support and back members and will stand up to the company when necessary.
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can i just say i feel sorry for everyone.
sorry for the ppl who are getting screwed around by QF.
sorry for the ex AN staff.
and sorry for ppl like me who have always wanted to fly, but wont ever get the chance to... well... maybe just not like it used to be.
you FA's do still like going to work, right?
SMILE!
sorry for the ppl who are getting screwed around by QF.
sorry for the ex AN staff.
and sorry for ppl like me who have always wanted to fly, but wont ever get the chance to... well... maybe just not like it used to be.
you FA's do still like going to work, right?
SMILE!
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TSSOV,
Yes we all do love our jobs - VERY much, hence our reason for being on this site discussing the important issues. It's just hard going to work these days though with a CEO who is all "doom and gloom" and constant decisions being made which effect our career options for a lifestyle we have all fought so hard to get.
Decisions being made by management are dividing us and causing uncertainty in every QF division. We need a strong leader which we "don't" have running this airline, he should be keeping us motivated and certain about our jobs and conditions, but he doesn't care about the staff - it's all about the fat slobby shareholders.
Branson has it right with putting his staff first, they can all look to their strong leader, at Qantas we all have to realise we have to look at each other for support. I myself have begun this process by making sure I ALWAYS smile and say hello to every other QF f/a from whatever division and by telling them I support them and that I hope we have their support. So far I have found that many s/h crew are supportive of regional crews and they are impressed with our support for them - let's spread the love people - every day you go to work say hello to a f/a from another division and tell them you support them - DO IT. No more dirty looks, no more "you just fly on turboprops", no more "ohh you must be impulse", no more "oh she looks like she has been flying for 60years"... Stop and tell the person you support them and their division - DO IT.
I'd love to hear from those of you who have been doing it and what the response is, I have been pleasantly suprised.
QF Skywalker
Yes we all do love our jobs - VERY much, hence our reason for being on this site discussing the important issues. It's just hard going to work these days though with a CEO who is all "doom and gloom" and constant decisions being made which effect our career options for a lifestyle we have all fought so hard to get.
Decisions being made by management are dividing us and causing uncertainty in every QF division. We need a strong leader which we "don't" have running this airline, he should be keeping us motivated and certain about our jobs and conditions, but he doesn't care about the staff - it's all about the fat slobby shareholders.
Branson has it right with putting his staff first, they can all look to their strong leader, at Qantas we all have to realise we have to look at each other for support. I myself have begun this process by making sure I ALWAYS smile and say hello to every other QF f/a from whatever division and by telling them I support them and that I hope we have their support. So far I have found that many s/h crew are supportive of regional crews and they are impressed with our support for them - let's spread the love people - every day you go to work say hello to a f/a from another division and tell them you support them - DO IT. No more dirty looks, no more "you just fly on turboprops", no more "ohh you must be impulse", no more "oh she looks like she has been flying for 60years"... Stop and tell the person you support them and their division - DO IT.
I'd love to hear from those of you who have been doing it and what the response is, I have been pleasantly suprised.
QF Skywalker
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UDR -
My apologies if what I stated was incorrect in your view. Honestly though I am yet to come across someone from LH who's opinion differs from what I said. That is a very close friend and a 'friend of a friend' plus around 5 or 6 LH FAs I have had idle chats with. You are right about PER but look at how new the base is and the amount of trips they actually have.
Re. the no flying line I might've misunderstood what I was told or maybe my friend just whinges for the sake of it and doesn't tell the whole story.... Most likely
I truly don't think it is too late for all domestic / regional FAs to stick together. I just think everyone is either too complacent or too focused on the smaller picture or their own agenda. Some people have it right though. Take a step back and look at what the big Q is doing to not just youself but your fellow workers more junior to you and in those other divisions. Makes me angry to say the least. I know Qantas is a business but if it were going through tough times I could perhaps understand. Corporate greed and willingness to walk over employees just doesn't wash with me.
Ferris and IguanaHead-
You have got it right. I agree totally.
Qwannas -
I do agree that perhaps the union could be a bit more focused on the whole domestic / regional scene. Not just each division as a separate concern. I am not saying I think they are doing a bad job. I just believe they are tackling the problem from too many sides. Perhaps attacking from the one point of view might have a better result for all. Just my personal thoughts. Who knows? What ever...
My apologies if what I stated was incorrect in your view. Honestly though I am yet to come across someone from LH who's opinion differs from what I said. That is a very close friend and a 'friend of a friend' plus around 5 or 6 LH FAs I have had idle chats with. You are right about PER but look at how new the base is and the amount of trips they actually have.
Re. the no flying line I might've misunderstood what I was told or maybe my friend just whinges for the sake of it and doesn't tell the whole story.... Most likely
I truly don't think it is too late for all domestic / regional FAs to stick together. I just think everyone is either too complacent or too focused on the smaller picture or their own agenda. Some people have it right though. Take a step back and look at what the big Q is doing to not just youself but your fellow workers more junior to you and in those other divisions. Makes me angry to say the least. I know Qantas is a business but if it were going through tough times I could perhaps understand. Corporate greed and willingness to walk over employees just doesn't wash with me.
Ferris and IguanaHead-
You have got it right. I agree totally.
Qwannas -
I do agree that perhaps the union could be a bit more focused on the whole domestic / regional scene. Not just each division as a separate concern. I am not saying I think they are doing a bad job. I just believe they are tackling the problem from too many sides. Perhaps attacking from the one point of view might have a better result for all. Just my personal thoughts. Who knows? What ever...
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At An we got pic up n release of work ,great for more time off n extra bucks.To cover the slack casuals were employed by co. started x ex faaa reps.Great for full time,guys wanting to enter industry [new jobs],great for co.cause if full time workers many on high pay stoped work who do you think they would direct to work?A big attraction for any co.I would not expect a kid on survival pay [over supply] at times to compromise their job or ditch it to save me a pay rise on not compairable grounds.Never happened but at qf lh the stop work sit. existed only 10 x worse.We lost our jobs were very fortunate to get them back doing the job we all lov.We were broke,mortgage etc.n due to world events still no work.Dole que 2 waiting on a call out que with no hrs or 0-4. Until this lh thing.Why blame people who want,need,lov the deal just as much as you mam are bad dudes.What would you do get v job a k mart to fill in top up wages? wouldnt keep me in mortgage even.No i dont live beyond my means.In my experience when fa s start falling out management rub their hands in glee.Sorry for bad typing etc hate it.Hope this info is of some assitance.We all have a voice at work lets not let it be a damageing voice for all fa s .
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I'm really surprised that the FAAA doesn't work as one consolidated union and operates of sorts as two seperate bodies (LH & SH / Regional).
I would have thought if the FAAA was going to have divisions (so as to service the large employee base) it would have been better off dividing into employer divisions. That way ALL QF issues are addressed by the one division, all VB issues are addressed by another division etc.
Not sure if I've got it right, but thats how I read it from the comments above.
Perhaps all the stakeholders need to take a moment to regroup and refocus.
I would have thought if the FAAA was going to have divisions (so as to service the large employee base) it would have been better off dividing into employer divisions. That way ALL QF issues are addressed by the one division, all VB issues are addressed by another division etc.
Not sure if I've got it right, but thats how I read it from the comments above.
Perhaps all the stakeholders need to take a moment to regroup and refocus.
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I must say after reading some of these posts my attitude has changed ever so slightly.
Lexus1 - Yes the union did a great job for Impulse crew from $22K but that was only $7K off what Eastern crew were paid, I didnt see them jumping in an offering the same assistance to get there wages up and they had many many years to do this and only a matter of months with Impulse once they were brought into Qantas.
Wow if so many elected officials are still part of the union as you so maybe they need some re-training to be brought up to speed with a rapidly changing industry, their actions indicate they just cant cope.
I have made my position very clear to the FAAA I can assure you.
Mr Seatback 2 - I suggest you go an do your calculations again, if you add in all allowances etc you will find that short haul crew are paid more than Virgin.
Ditzyboy - I will try my hardest cant make any promises though. You are wrong about the EAA EBA, on the very day that their EBA was voted up Dixon came out with his speech in Perth about reducing the number of permanent staff over all divisions (thus effecting progression) and alluded to the LCC. So QF and the FAAA were fully aware of this fact (as the FAAA were briefed by QF about the reduction in permanent crew) and the information was not passed to EAA crew until the day after the EBA was voted up.
I like your comparison with NJS. However, NJS is a complete contract including a/c, flight crew, engineering etc. My point was that the FAAA allowed another jet operation into Qantas as a wholly owned subsidiary and paid them substantially less than existing cabin crew. Why would Dixon continue with short haul when he had already overcome a major hurdle with cheap jet cabin crew. Are you saying that if you had to operate a bigger a/c you would expect more money? Just interested to know your point of view.
Getting involved in the union as an elected official and elected officials are the only ones that can really make a difference is like a pilot becoming a 747 captain off the street.
Upperrightdeck - I agree with you 100% I voted no on the EBA for that very reason band payments should have been available to long haul and regional crew.
Ozskipper - The FAAA use to be one including long, short and regional but long haul broke away.
I agree with a lot of the posts we should be more supportive of each other, however it is difficult when you know that crew within are willing to undermine other crew's salaries and conditions to ensure their own survival and I certainly dont accept that we should just sit back and put our faith in the FAAA, we should be proactive not reactive.
Lexus1 - Yes the union did a great job for Impulse crew from $22K but that was only $7K off what Eastern crew were paid, I didnt see them jumping in an offering the same assistance to get there wages up and they had many many years to do this and only a matter of months with Impulse once they were brought into Qantas.
Wow if so many elected officials are still part of the union as you so maybe they need some re-training to be brought up to speed with a rapidly changing industry, their actions indicate they just cant cope.
I have made my position very clear to the FAAA I can assure you.
Mr Seatback 2 - I suggest you go an do your calculations again, if you add in all allowances etc you will find that short haul crew are paid more than Virgin.
Ditzyboy - I will try my hardest cant make any promises though. You are wrong about the EAA EBA, on the very day that their EBA was voted up Dixon came out with his speech in Perth about reducing the number of permanent staff over all divisions (thus effecting progression) and alluded to the LCC. So QF and the FAAA were fully aware of this fact (as the FAAA were briefed by QF about the reduction in permanent crew) and the information was not passed to EAA crew until the day after the EBA was voted up.
I like your comparison with NJS. However, NJS is a complete contract including a/c, flight crew, engineering etc. My point was that the FAAA allowed another jet operation into Qantas as a wholly owned subsidiary and paid them substantially less than existing cabin crew. Why would Dixon continue with short haul when he had already overcome a major hurdle with cheap jet cabin crew. Are you saying that if you had to operate a bigger a/c you would expect more money? Just interested to know your point of view.
Getting involved in the union as an elected official and elected officials are the only ones that can really make a difference is like a pilot becoming a 747 captain off the street.
Upperrightdeck - I agree with you 100% I voted no on the EBA for that very reason band payments should have been available to long haul and regional crew.
Ozskipper - The FAAA use to be one including long, short and regional but long haul broke away.
I agree with a lot of the posts we should be more supportive of each other, however it is difficult when you know that crew within are willing to undermine other crew's salaries and conditions to ensure their own survival and I certainly dont accept that we should just sit back and put our faith in the FAAA, we should be proactive not reactive.
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so nice to have options. maybe i should just bow out of flying and not undermine conditions that would help every thing right.look at v big picture guys companies plan n plot and a system has now been implemented by them. if you think some poor old sob who has and does work hard to make bucks when i can is at fault you are sorly mistaken.my options are to fly n pursue or as i said bow out n leave.the culture ive been exposed to at qf is one of friendlyness not of hate.gee i wish i could dictate these things cause i hate typing anyway think deep avoid emotion content n ego n think cause i must curb,not write to much cause i know to much.my last post ill not bite at others.
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GalleyHag -
My reasoning re. the Impulse conditions was based on NJS and Virgin awards. The Impulse EBA was in the pipeline before QF was interested in us. The commencement of our contract with QF certainly sped the EBA inroduction along! Our operation both before and after becoming involved and purchased by QF is very similar to that of NJS and Virgin though a world away from SH.
Are you saying that NJS being on B scale wages (compared to SH) is OK because they are a contract? They still reduced SH flying back in 1991. Southern, then Impulse reduced it further I agree. I guess it is just evolution though. Alot of the oldies will remember when a 40 seat F27 was considered mainline. The very idea seems proposterous nowadays! The Ansett 146s were once a separate division (Ansett WA and Eastwest). I bet Ansett lost HUGE amounts of money absorbing them into mainline with the crew on higher wages. There was even talk at one stage to ship some off to SkyWest - a subsidiary. Obviously it wasn't working for them.
POINT ONE...
Sorry back to my point! I am saying that B scale wages are very applicable to smaller aircraft operations and smaller companies where the ability to make profit is smaller. It is also harder to make money from regional operations where the traffic volume is just not there. (Though the Dash 8 people should be getting MORE $ !!!)
POINT TWO...
Your position within SH involves MANY aircraft variations, variable crew operations, back of clock flying, international operations and product and service variations. Your position covers a much wider scope of work practices. Therefore you can expect to earn more. On the 717 our biggest concern is knowing whether we are operating on a two or three toilet a/c as it changes the exit row numbers! Even then there is no difference in service procedures or emergency equipment locations and procedures! We operate a single aircraft type, single class and have not been rostered back of clock flying since the commencement of the EBA. (Barring some hideous SYD-HTI-SYD patterns after the AN collapse! Even then we got double time after midnight as a dispensation. Very lucrative!)
When they introduced J class to the 717s (plan was scrapped before the service began!) the FAAA was to fight for more money in recognition of the service and product variations. This is just ONE factor of the many that fall under a day's work for you at SH. Do you understand my reasoning?
POINT THREE...
If they reintroduced J class on the 717 and had us operating BNE-SYD-MEL or had us on another aircraft type or introduced variable crew compliments we could reasonably expect more money. If Australian introduced another aircraft, a second service class or extended beyong medium haul you could expect the FAAA to renegotiate the EBA / salary.
POINT FOUR...
By passing on routes that do not make money for mainline to a subsidiary the company is able to make profits. We saw that with OOL (obviously before the AN collapse and the 717s couldn't handle the capacity!). Same when NJS took over the QLD regional ports and Southern took over LST and SYD-HBA. Qantas needed to do this. You can't fly a 737 BNE-ROK (as was the case prior to 1991) and expect to make moeny with today's lower airfares and higher costs. So Qantas either creates a subsidiary / contract or ceases to operate in those routes.
Gone are the days of high airfares and little competition (just AN and QF) where the loss making routes were subsidised by everything else. The margins are no longer there. The answer - create a operation highly specialised in that area. The costs savings are many and Qantas is silly not to persue them where they are making losses. Please show me an AO destination that Qantas made reasonable (if any!) money on. Under the Qantas structure is was just not possible - unless you want LH FAs to take a cut etc. Same with Impulse taking over Tassie and HTI. Would you take a pay cut just so Qantas mainline can keep serving a particular destination? Hence the creation of the NJS contract, Impulse and Australian. If Australian started flying SYD-LAX or Impulse SYD-MEL with J class then I would be crying foul.
Now something I wish to ask is the reasoning behind the two different SH scales for permenant staff. How can two permenant employess doing indentical jobs be under different conditions??? That is the rort! That is where the erosion of conditions is!
In my view the only FAs being exploited financially by QF are the Dash 8 FAs. For sure it is harder for Eastern and Sunstate to make money on regional flying but you can't tell me their wages are adequate.
Regarding Impulse pay vs. SH. Under our salary structure we could easily earn more than a second year SH FA. Obviously that would change with seniority at SH. Just backing up Mr Seatback's point.
Sorry I have rambled on a bit, GalleyHag. I am tired. Just want to make sure my point was clear. I hope you understand my position in defending separate conditions for specialised / particular operations. Australian, Impulse and NJS FAs are hardly on the poverty line. I believe these wages are adequate for the positions they fill.
My reasoning re. the Impulse conditions was based on NJS and Virgin awards. The Impulse EBA was in the pipeline before QF was interested in us. The commencement of our contract with QF certainly sped the EBA inroduction along! Our operation both before and after becoming involved and purchased by QF is very similar to that of NJS and Virgin though a world away from SH.
Are you saying that NJS being on B scale wages (compared to SH) is OK because they are a contract? They still reduced SH flying back in 1991. Southern, then Impulse reduced it further I agree. I guess it is just evolution though. Alot of the oldies will remember when a 40 seat F27 was considered mainline. The very idea seems proposterous nowadays! The Ansett 146s were once a separate division (Ansett WA and Eastwest). I bet Ansett lost HUGE amounts of money absorbing them into mainline with the crew on higher wages. There was even talk at one stage to ship some off to SkyWest - a subsidiary. Obviously it wasn't working for them.
POINT ONE...
Sorry back to my point!
I am saying that B scale wages are very applicable to smaller aircraft operations and smaller companies where the ability to make profit is smaller. It is also harder to make money from regional operations where the traffic volume is just not there. (Though the Dash 8 people should be getting MORE $ !!!) POINT TWO...
Your position within SH involves MANY aircraft variations, variable crew operations, back of clock flying, international operations and product and service variations. Your position covers a much wider scope of work practices. Therefore you can expect to earn more. On the 717 our biggest concern is knowing whether we are operating on a two or three toilet a/c as it changes the exit row numbers! Even then there is no difference in service procedures or emergency equipment locations and procedures! We operate a single aircraft type, single class and have not been rostered back of clock flying since the commencement of the EBA. (Barring some hideous SYD-HTI-SYD patterns after the AN collapse! Even then we got double time after midnight as a dispensation. Very lucrative!)
When they introduced J class to the 717s (plan was scrapped before the service began!) the FAAA was to fight for more money in recognition of the service and product variations. This is just ONE factor of the many that fall under a day's work for you at SH. Do you understand my reasoning?
POINT THREE...
If they reintroduced J class on the 717 and had us operating BNE-SYD-MEL or had us on another aircraft type or introduced variable crew compliments we could reasonably expect more money. If Australian introduced another aircraft, a second service class or extended beyong medium haul you could expect the FAAA to renegotiate the EBA / salary.
POINT FOUR...
By passing on routes that do not make money for mainline to a subsidiary the company is able to make profits. We saw that with OOL (obviously before the AN collapse and the 717s couldn't handle the capacity!). Same when NJS took over the QLD regional ports and Southern took over LST and SYD-HBA. Qantas needed to do this. You can't fly a 737 BNE-ROK (as was the case prior to 1991) and expect to make moeny with today's lower airfares and higher costs. So Qantas either creates a subsidiary / contract or ceases to operate in those routes.
Gone are the days of high airfares and little competition (just AN and QF) where the loss making routes were subsidised by everything else. The margins are no longer there. The answer - create a operation highly specialised in that area. The costs savings are many and Qantas is silly not to persue them where they are making losses. Please show me an AO destination that Qantas made reasonable (if any!) money on. Under the Qantas structure is was just not possible - unless you want LH FAs to take a cut etc. Same with Impulse taking over Tassie and HTI. Would you take a pay cut just so Qantas mainline can keep serving a particular destination? Hence the creation of the NJS contract, Impulse and Australian. If Australian started flying SYD-LAX or Impulse SYD-MEL with J class then I would be crying foul.
Now something I wish to ask is the reasoning behind the two different SH scales for permenant staff. How can two permenant employess doing indentical jobs be under different conditions??? That is the rort! That is where the erosion of conditions is!
In my view the only FAs being exploited financially by QF are the Dash 8 FAs. For sure it is harder for Eastern and Sunstate to make money on regional flying but you can't tell me their wages are adequate.
Regarding Impulse pay vs. SH. Under our salary structure we could easily earn more than a second year SH FA. Obviously that would change with seniority at SH. Just backing up Mr Seatback's point.
Sorry I have rambled on a bit, GalleyHag. I am tired. Just want to make sure my point was clear. I hope you understand my position in defending separate conditions for specialised / particular operations. Australian, Impulse and NJS FAs are hardly on the poverty line. I believe these wages are adequate for the positions they fill.
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Very constructive thoughts and input! Well done on not turning this into a 'handbags at 5 paces' situation folks!
Galleyhag
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about VB and QF S/H wages not being the same. Whilst someone on a 4th year scale upwards would definitely earn more, the VB crew do on average 10 overnights a month (I've never heard of any month where anything less than 10 has been rostered - except where MEL base was set up, and they didn't have any overnights to start with).
This is where they make their money (not including the international supplement annualised in their salary, Back of Clock allowances, etc). And having put a few payslips from a Year 2 S/H FA at QF and a Year 2 FA at VB together and given them a once over, the differences are minimal - in some cases, the VB crew can earn more.
Anyway...announcement due in 2 weeks and counting folks...brace yourselves...
Galleyhag
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about VB and QF S/H wages not being the same. Whilst someone on a 4th year scale upwards would definitely earn more, the VB crew do on average 10 overnights a month (I've never heard of any month where anything less than 10 has been rostered - except where MEL base was set up, and they didn't have any overnights to start with).
This is where they make their money (not including the international supplement annualised in their salary, Back of Clock allowances, etc). And having put a few payslips from a Year 2 S/H FA at QF and a Year 2 FA at VB together and given them a once over, the differences are minimal - in some cases, the VB crew can earn more.
Anyway...announcement due in 2 weeks and counting folks...brace yourselves...
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After attending several of the meetings that have been held in each port for the impulse crew re: the new LCC i can honestly say i am now looking forward to it happening and hoping that we have a chance to win it as all the concerns i have had so far have been given reasonable answers.
just to clear up a few myths that are floating around (and there are ALOT) here are the general points from the staff briefings:
* new LCC will operate TOTALLY seperatly from mainline and QFlink. QFlink services will continue and possibly build with the potential to fill the market with even more dash8 and 146 services. the new airline will compete against QF and QFLink on these routes, not take them over. There will be no jobs lost or made redundant anywhere in the network. The rumor that Impulse crews will be made redundant and rehired under LCC has been declared false, if they win the bid they will remain under the current EBA and remain Impulse Airlines t/as LCC.
* All empolyees will be full time or part time.
* LCC will 'burn not earn' for FFlyers and Oneworld pax. It probably will not be a member of Oneworld.... you can use your FF POints for seats on the LCC but not earn points on it. There will be no more preffered seating for business/corporate/FF travelers. (if there is any organised seating at all... there is a possibility that seats will not be allocated and it will become 'first in first served', a method which although promises an ontime departure mostly every time is a bit more hassle for crews with seating etc).
*LCC will recruit its own ground staff, maintenence and engineering, baggage, marketing, corporate and crew. it will have its own checkin desks and terminal. It will not be possible for a pax to check bags through to Qantas flights. Flights will need to be booked through LCCs own website or call centre.
States are currently bidding to get the LCC to base ops there but bases will not change and crew will not be made to move states within the next 5 years (if it works). Main base is purely for branding, sponsorship of local events/businesses and marketing purposes so that the winning state will have its "own airline" as such. DJ although based in BNE currently do not do this and so therefore do not yet 'own' brisbane in the communities eyes.
* If Impulse win the bid they have assured the crew that they will do everything possible to retain staff travel benefits, as taking it away will only lower company morale and cause unneccessary problems.
* Crew will not 'advertise' sponsors (nor will there be any in the cabin) or wear strange uniforms. this does not reflect crew in the publics eyes as being safety professionals and as being 'serious'.
there will actually be a proper, smart, crew-like uniform.
* If Impulse win the bid the 717s will also be used on the shorter routes of the LCC, along with the new aircraft. 717s will probably be phased out in the next 6 years but definatly no sooner that 3or 4.
* Because its a public company, the media must know about the confirmed details before staff (due to insider trading and because they dont want to relase details to employees before the public and have DJ take the media attention away on the day of the announcement) they said that be aware the public will probably know about whats happening before statements are given to staff. From this week onwards, small titbits will be leaked to the media about the airline to gain public interest but there is definatly no set date for the announcement as they want it to be a suprise.
* the only comment i am making here of my own is that from the way it sounded it will be airbusses. they wouldnt say yes or no. but they way things sounded (and the media leaks) say it will be airbus.
just to clear up a few myths that are floating around (and there are ALOT) here are the general points from the staff briefings:
* new LCC will operate TOTALLY seperatly from mainline and QFlink. QFlink services will continue and possibly build with the potential to fill the market with even more dash8 and 146 services. the new airline will compete against QF and QFLink on these routes, not take them over. There will be no jobs lost or made redundant anywhere in the network. The rumor that Impulse crews will be made redundant and rehired under LCC has been declared false, if they win the bid they will remain under the current EBA and remain Impulse Airlines t/as LCC.
* All empolyees will be full time or part time.
* LCC will 'burn not earn' for FFlyers and Oneworld pax. It probably will not be a member of Oneworld.... you can use your FF POints for seats on the LCC but not earn points on it. There will be no more preffered seating for business/corporate/FF travelers. (if there is any organised seating at all... there is a possibility that seats will not be allocated and it will become 'first in first served', a method which although promises an ontime departure mostly every time is a bit more hassle for crews with seating etc).
*LCC will recruit its own ground staff, maintenence and engineering, baggage, marketing, corporate and crew. it will have its own checkin desks and terminal. It will not be possible for a pax to check bags through to Qantas flights. Flights will need to be booked through LCCs own website or call centre.
States are currently bidding to get the LCC to base ops there but bases will not change and crew will not be made to move states within the next 5 years (if it works). Main base is purely for branding, sponsorship of local events/businesses and marketing purposes so that the winning state will have its "own airline" as such. DJ although based in BNE currently do not do this and so therefore do not yet 'own' brisbane in the communities eyes.
* If Impulse win the bid they have assured the crew that they will do everything possible to retain staff travel benefits, as taking it away will only lower company morale and cause unneccessary problems.
* Crew will not 'advertise' sponsors (nor will there be any in the cabin) or wear strange uniforms. this does not reflect crew in the publics eyes as being safety professionals and as being 'serious'.
there will actually be a proper, smart, crew-like uniform.
* If Impulse win the bid the 717s will also be used on the shorter routes of the LCC, along with the new aircraft. 717s will probably be phased out in the next 6 years but definatly no sooner that 3or 4.
* Because its a public company, the media must know about the confirmed details before staff (due to insider trading and because they dont want to relase details to employees before the public and have DJ take the media attention away on the day of the announcement) they said that be aware the public will probably know about whats happening before statements are given to staff. From this week onwards, small titbits will be leaked to the media about the airline to gain public interest but there is definatly no set date for the announcement as they want it to be a suprise.
* the only comment i am making here of my own is that from the way it sounded it will be airbusses. they wouldnt say yes or no. but they way things sounded (and the media leaks) say it will be airbus.
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So does this mean, that Impulse have put a bid in to use all of their staff for the new LCC? So there wouldn't really be a recruitment drive for F/A positions as Impulse crew will slot right into them before anyone else?
Just wanted to know?
Just wanted to know?
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yes, as far as i know there are two options they are going for.. one is for impulse to win the bid and yes, all staff would be used but they would need to recuruit a hell of alot more too to cover the extra planes, the other is setting up a brand new company called a 'greenfields' company which is like starting from scratch and would take abot 18 months to do. the impulse bid looks promising becuase we are already set up and able to just basically change uniforms and cross train on another a/c.
dont worry, they have said they will (if they win it ) look at recuriting in dec.. i think also as soon as the announcement on teh a/c type is made they will start recruiting more tech crew too.
dont worry, they have said they will (if they win it ) look at recuriting in dec.. i think also as soon as the announcement on teh a/c type is made they will start recruiting more tech crew too.
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Just a bit of background on the FAAA - back in the days of female only domestic cabin crew there was the Airline Hostess' Association, formed in the 1950's. It covered Ansett, TAA, East West etc. After males were allowed to become cabin crew it became the Australian Flight Attendant's Association. The Qantas Flight Stewards and the Australian International Cabin Crew Association amalgamated with domestic AFAA in 1992 to become the FAAA. My memory is a bit hazy but I think the merger of the two was due to government laws stipulating a minimum size of unions to be legal.
Divide and conquer is what Qantas wants, there is more power if all cabin crew stick together as a united front.
Divide and conquer is what Qantas wants, there is more power if all cabin crew stick together as a united front.
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If Impulse crew do win the bid to crew the new LCC they should be treated exactly the same as AO crew in terms of staff travel etc.
If you believe for one minute that no one will loose their job because of the LCC think again.
If you believe for one minute that no one will loose their job because of the LCC think again.
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I agree with Galleyhag - don't believe that no-one will come out of this without a job loss somewhere, either now or down the track.
As far as staff travel goes I don't see that being an issue. Staff travel is a money earner for Qantas now that they have downsized the staff travel department and made it a "online" process. I don't think it will be long before we see our AO friends with staff travel benefits which will be great.
If Impulse is the LCC it will be interesting to see how they divide up the staff to work in either division "link" or "lcc" or if it all just becomes one and we see the Dash 8/Bae146 as the only QFLINK services.
I do hope for the sake of our impulse mates that if they are the new LCC that some good management is put in place to lead these guys through a very big change.
As far as staff travel goes I don't see that being an issue. Staff travel is a money earner for Qantas now that they have downsized the staff travel department and made it a "online" process. I don't think it will be long before we see our AO friends with staff travel benefits which will be great.
If Impulse is the LCC it will be interesting to see how they divide up the staff to work in either division "link" or "lcc" or if it all just becomes one and we see the Dash 8/Bae146 as the only QFLINK services.
I do hope for the sake of our impulse mates that if they are the new LCC that some good management is put in place to lead these guys through a very big change.