From low cost airline to executive aviation

[TheAirMission]

Originally Posted by stilton

I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe


I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few



There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans

Sounds like someone doesnt really know the biz industry that well, or worked for really sketchy operators.

[dirk85]

Originally Posted by TheAirMission

Sounds like someone doesnt really know the biz industry that well, or worked for really sketchy operators.

The problem is that you don’t want to work for 80%, if not more, of the operators currently flying in Europe. Sketchy doesn’t even start to describe them.
Not everyone works for Netjets.

The odds are better, not by much but still, in the airlines world.

[EatMyShorts!]

That's the unfortunate truth. Unless you get into one of the more organized companies, I'd stay out. You may have to spend some limited time with some bizjet operator to build hours, but you should not stay with them, they will just ruin your character and your aviation habits.

[Moonwalker]

Originally Posted by dirk85

The problem is that you don’t want to work for 80%, if not more, of the operators currently flying in Europe. Sketchy doesn’t even start to describe them.
Not everyone works for Netjets.

The odds are better, not by much but still, in the airlines world.

But that goes for the airlines as well doesn't it? How many good airlines are there left in Europe? Just a handful at most.

[Moonwalker]

Originally Posted by stilton

I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe


I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few



There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans

All I can say is that I've seen both the airline and business jet side of this industry and the challenges I face in the day to day ops in a long range business jet is not even comparable to the ones I experienced in the airlines. If you want an easy life. Stay in the airlines.

I had much more airport stand by with my airlines compared to my business jet "airline". I haven't had an airport stand by for as long as I remember. Either you fly or you don't.

I've never emptied a toilet on my business jet

What I mean with bureaucratic types is that I've seen plenty of airline guys joining and some see it as they've finally found their home and others don't last more than 6 months. Their mindset is too rigid and close-minded.

[Duca]

Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!

That's the unfortunate truth. Unless you get into one of the more organized companies, I'd stay out. You may have to spend some limited time with some bizjet operator to build hours, but you should not stay with them, they will just ruin your character and your aviation habits.

How many hours as PIC would you suggest to accumulate before jumping from airline to biz jet, just in case something goes wrong and I might want to get back to airlining?

[EatMyShorts!]

Originally Posted by Duca

How many hours as PIC would you suggest to accumulate before jumping from airline to biz jet, just in case something goes wrong and I might want to get back to airlining?

Well, for the that you need to know what your fallback options would be. How many hours do they want as minimum? And also be aware that you will most likely go back to the airlines at the bottom of the queue, as first officer.

In my opinion the best way to become a professional bizjet pilot is to first start with the airlines, lots of flying, lots of situations, then join the biz aviation. This way you will learn the proper way how to safely operate an aircraft and a crew. People who started on bizjets can be a bit cowboy-style ("let me show you something").

[Duca]

Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!

Well, for the that you need to know what your fallback options would be. How many hours do they want as minimum? And also be aware that you will most likely go back to the airlines at the bottom of the queue, as first officer.

In my opinion the best way to become a professional bizjet pilot is to first start with the airlines, lots of flying, lots of situations, then join the biz aviation. This way you will learn the proper way how to safely operate an aircraft and a crew. People who started on bizjets can be a bit cowboy-style ("let me show you something").

Got it! Thank you!

[dirk85]

Originally Posted by Moonwalker

But that goes for the airlines as well doesn't it? How many good airlines are there left in Europe? Just a handful at most.

Not as bad. There are still all the majors and a few charters and low cost that make a decent % of the planes flying around, with more than decent conditions. While I cannot think of more than a couple of business jets companies where I wouldn't mind to fly.
And I have seen both worlds, from both seats.

[flylevel390]

Career advice

Interesting thread. Fits quite nicely to my current dilemma. Maybe one can give me a career advice.

I'm really a GA guy (lots of private flying in my past). Now I have been offered a job in a reputable corporate jet company in Europe and also Eurowings too....

I would start on a Citation with the possibility to a upgrade to a Gulfstream later on (they pay for everything...). This job opportunity really motivates me and I'm glad I got the offer.
And then there is Eurowings (A320)... Better pay, more routine, more stress (block time per y), of course all the benefits you get with the airlines, but maybe more boredom in the end?

What do you think? Should I go for the more interesting, reputable corporate gig or take the option with more money and join the airlines?
Thanks in advance.

[TheAirMission]

Originally Posted by flylevel390

Interesting thread. Fits quite nicely to my current dilemma. Maybe one can give me a career advice.

I'm really a GA guy (lots of private flying in my past). Now I have been offered a job in a reputable corporate jet company in Europe and also Eurowings too....

I would start on a Citation with the possibility to a upgrade to a Gulfstream later on (they pay for everything...). This job opportunity really motivates me and I'm glad I got the offer.
And then there is Eurowings (A320)... Better pay, more routine, more stress (block time per y), of course all the benefits you get with the airlines, but maybe more boredom in the end?

What do you think? Should I go for the more interesting, reputable corporate gig or take the option with more money and join the airlines?
Thanks in advance.

The Corporate job must be pretty low pay if Eurowings will be better pay, is that guranteed or just based on average block hours at EW? If you're a private guy and this is your first airline job offer, is it worth the risk, have you spoke to anyone within EW ops that gives you the low down of the work lifestyle there. Also, how does it work with your commute from home, which is better for you?

[global2express]

From personal experience, 90% of what's promised during a business aviation interview will never happen: you'll most likely stay on the Citation, you'll be on standby 24 hours a day 7 days a week, there won't be any career progression, you'll be asked to fly broken airplanes, and if you refuse, you'll most likely get fired. Take the Eurowings job—it's not great but it's a start.

Originally Posted by flylevel390

I would start on a Citation with the possibility to a upgrade to a Gulfstream later on (they pay for everything...).

[TheAirMission]

Originally Posted by global2express

From personal experience, 90% of what is promised during an interview in business aviation will never happen: you'll most likely stay on the Citation, you'll be on standby 24 hours a day 7 days a week, there won't be any career progression, you'll be asked to fly broken airplanes, and if you refuse, you'll most likely get fired. Take the Eurowings job—it's not great but it's a start.

The big operators such as NetJets/FlexJet etc do not have 24/7 standbys, my roster is fixed 6 on 5 off. Considering the outfit has citations and gulfstreams, I assume its one of the bigger operators. Don't paint the whole industry with your personal experience brush.

[EatMyShorts!]

If an airline would bore you, go for the corporate gig. Have you tried Netjets Europe, Flexjet Europe? NJE is accepting applications at the moment, until January 16, so hurry up.

[global2express]

Point taken. flylevel390 take the Eurowings job, unless you got an offer with a confirmed start date from NetJets (it might take 12+ months between application and actual employment).

[flylevel390]

Eurowings pays around 65k before taxes.. Coporate gig would be -15% (roughly). That would be enough for normal living expenses.
No, there is no 24/7/365 standby there, they have got a stable roster and there would be also the opportunity to move on to NJE if this gig doesn't suit, when TT>1500h (for FOs), if I understood the requirements at NJE correctly.

TheAirMission No minimum block hours at EW. Commuting is a factor. Here the corp gig wins I would say....

EatMyShorts! I don't see any open positions for NJE Europe! Only for the US (plus the 1500h TT requirement).

[EatMyShorts!]

Originally Posted by flylevel390

EatMyShorts! I don't see any open positions for NJE Europe! Only for the US (plus the 1500h TT requirement).

It is being discussed in the parallel thread about Netjets Europe: NETJETS Europe hiring again

https://kuraairlineresourcing.co.uk/netjets/

In any case, if you do not have the correct amount of hours right now, subscribe to Kura Aviation on LinkedIn to receive a notification when Netjets Europe will be hiring again. NJE is requesting at least 1500h TT, including 500h multi-pilot on multi-engine aircraft, see the website in the paragraph before.

[stilton]

Originally Posted by Moonwalker

All I can say is that I've seen both the airline and business jet side of this industry and the challenges I face in the day to day ops in a long range business jet is not even comparable to the ones I experienced in the airlines. If you want an easy life. Stay in the airlines.

I had much more airport stand by with my airlines compared to my business jet "airline". I haven't had an airport stand by for as long as I remember. Either you fly or you don't.

I've never emptied a toilet on my business jet

What I mean with bureaucratic types is that I've seen plenty of airline guys joining and some see it as they've finally found their home and others don't last more than 6 months. Their mindset is too rigid and close-minded.

I definitely want the easiest life possible, why would you deliberately choose a more difficult career with far less pay, benefits and lifestyle ?


I certainly had enough hard times in aviation working for unscrupulous operators before I had the experience necessary to work for an airline


I sat ‘airport standby’ about half a dozen times total in a 23 year airline career


When I was flying freight many years ago I saw business jet pilots sitting around in FBOs all the time, waiting all day for the boss to return


Airline pilots are no more ‘rigid and closed minded’ than other pilots


On the other hand they are used to a highly organized, very large organization with a high level of support, well maintained aircraft and union labor contracts that look out for their interests


That is a very good thing

[EatMyShorts!]

Originally Posted by stilton

On the other hand they are used to a highly organized, very large organization with a high level of support, well maintained aircraft and union labor contracts that look out for their interests

Exactly what outfits like Netjets and Flexjet offer. An airline like operation of aircraft that are far more fun to fly and operate than those dull Boeings and Airbus'. I jumped from the airlines to biz aviation exactly 20 years ago and do not regret it a single second! Some people are made for airlines with a fixed set of destinations that they can prepare for hours, days, weeks before they fly there, or they'd feel uncomfortable. Others would get bored to death by this and prefer a more dynamic environment. And, yes, there are many GA operators that are great to start your career with, but you'll need to jump **** ASAP to advance your career and life. We are not talking about those jobs. We are talking about jobs in GA that pay well, that don't make you sit on standby on a regular basis, that offer a stable roster and enough rest time and that stick to the rules and regulations.

[His dudeness]

I´ll be the devils advocate, sorta...

If you care looking at an increasingly unpleasant passenger crowd at the finger and never really see and have time to explore foreign cities and countries - then the airline is the way to go. A lot offer even being home every night. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your day?" ", "well Postion 493 at FRA to Gate24 in Mallorca and back, then had the police come and take a unruly drunkard off my aircraft, then I flew to Edinburgh and back with even more drunks on board"

If you like to meet (some) interesting people and are an explorer - go to the business jet side of things. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your week ? "Well monday mornin I flew to Cairo and visited the pyramids, courtesy of the company, then I had dinner with the boss in the 5 Star Hotel we stayed in and the next day, at a civilized hour, we took off for Accra in Ghana, stayed 2 nights in a 5 Star with a fantastic pool and restaurant poolside and then we took of for Fez at 0900 in the morning and visited the medina and had lamb with humus in the evening under a full moon. Next day we took of at 1400 back home, then I did a toilet service, catered the airplane up, put it in the hangar, checked the oil and tire pressure, did my paperwork, the flight planning for the next big trip, hugged the aircraft and wished it a good rest, closed the hangar doors and now I´m here to be at home for 6 days before we go flying again - if the company does not change its mind, that is..."

Thats my take on my work life in a corporate flight department these days. Business aviation is a multifacetted world, very few operations are like the one next door, just like Ryanair is - I guess - really different than say Lufthansa.