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Condition admissions

Old 29th Jan 2019, 07:06
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Malta
Posts: 87
Condition admissions

Hello everybody,

The market has has changed lately to favour the pilot with people flowing to airlines and opportunities opening up in the business sector..

Having spoken to various people within the industry I found there is quite a disparity between conditions and so I thought Id ask here what you think are minimum requirements that pilots should receive.

There are many different types of Ops, long range Global 5000, Falcon 8X or Gulfstream 550/650 types, Midrange Falcon 2000, Gulfstream 450, Challenger 350, and the short ranged Cjs, Gulfstream 150, and Premiers for example. Obviously you cant expect five star hotels on a CJ or a five figure monthly salary on a G450 on the right seat... but what can you expect as a minimum? Are owners and operators being fair or greedy?

Best available 4 star hotel? 200 dollars per diems? Breakfast included on top?, business class flights unrestricted? Crew meals, proceed home when no flights scheduled or stay near to aircraft? Health plan? Schooling for kids? Company car? Choice of pillow... what would wet your appetite and what would make you look elsewhere?

This is a very broad question but thought it might spark a debate and give rise to some interesting perspectives.

Perhaps we could format it for simplicity.

Type:
Salary: (perhaps this is a little private)
Per diems:
Minimum hotel rating:
breakfast included:
health plan
schooling:
flight tickets:
roster:
transfer:
extras:

Have I missed anything big there?

Thanks

Uberwang



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Old 29th Jan 2019, 10:38
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Home Counties
Age: 42
Posts: 490
You missed the operator name and a few other things ...

Operator: TAG Aviation UK (each operation/aircraft is different with different T&Cs) so this will give a rough guide to the company as a whole.

Position: FO

Number of crew: To cover our 2 aircraft, 8 (5 Cpt, 3 FO), 5 flight attendants (who have a much better roster as there are so many of them)

Base: varies. We all live in Europe and positioning provided to the two aircraft based in Paris and Tokyo

Type: Challenger 605

Rating: provided free of charge with a bond

Salary: 61800 (plus I get 3k for additional non-flying duties) captains on 103k I think. We usually get 3% annual pay rise. I suspect not everyone is on the same deal

Per diems: varies and claimed based on spending (you are not supposed to profit from this but some do) average 15 breakfast, 25 lunch, 35 dinner, 10 (this 10 you do claim automatically and is not based on spending)

Minimum hotel rating: its not specified but crew generally book their own and we generally go for 4-5 star

breakfast included: typically yes (but no specific rule) - and crew food is part of catering order for the passengers, we usually ask for what we like when the catering order is done

pension: just above the legally required minimum. I think the company matches your contribution up to 5%

health plan: You are included, your family are extra monthly costs

schooling: None - but we all live where we choose and free state schools where I live in the UK are good quality.

flight tickets: Economy or prem economy for longer (6+ hour flights). This is a sore point for some of us when positioning to Tokyo etc.

roster: A sore point for me. There is a notional roster supposed to be published by the 15th of the month for the following month. However it is frequently changed right up till the last day of the month concerned. (The last change for Jan 2019 roster was 28th Jan!!). The only days which are guaranteed off are booked leave days - you will be expected to work on rostered OFF days if they ask you - which happens several times a year.

transfer: All paid

recurrent: twice a year at CAE

extras: optional subsidised Loss Of Licence insurance. Internal freelance paid to operate other jets in the company (750-950 per day)

happy?: I resigned before Christmas due to unstable roster and lack of any upgrade (dead mans shoes with oldest current captain 6-7 years from retirement). There is ALOT of complaining down route among most (but not all) about the roster.

I think that that covers it
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 10:45
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 944
Hello!

Originally Posted by uberwang View Post
Have I missed anything big there?
Two things:

1. We are all different individuals with different needs. We may share the same profession but we do completely different jobs. We live in and work different countries/different parts of the world with a wide variety of social security legislation. Quite a few things that you ask for in your list don't apply to all of us.
One example: If I am given the choice of the "best four star hotel", usually close to the airport, or a cosy 3-star hotel at somewhere like Montmartre, with restaurants and museums in walking distance, I will always take the latter. Therefore I don't want that four-star requirement on my work contract. As it is now, we have an agreement with our management that we get 4-star standard where available but with some liberty of choice from both sides. Why would I want, on a short overnight stay, to take a 45 minute taxi ride (which in many places will cover no more than 5km distance...) to a four star hotel when I can walk to a three star just across the road from the FBO. I much prefer two extra hours of sleep over 2 more square meters of room size (or whatever the difference between 3 and 4 stars may be).

2. The current situation is not going to last. We all know that. If we ask too much from our employers, knowing that we are irreplaceable right now, they will perceive that as a kind of blackmail (at least mine would). And retaliate at the first opportunity. I've been in this business for nearly 30 years. The ups and downs come every five to eight years. With the tops and bottoms higher and deeper every time. Personally I will not ask anything extra from my employer now, only because I could. Because I know him as a man of honour and therefore I am confident that he will not replace me with a desperate unemployed 10.000hour airline captain in three or four years time when these become available again at 1/3 of my present salary. And they will, rest assured!

But you are completely right that the terrible entry conditions for new pilots that have been established over the last years must become a thing of the past. Like self-funded type-rating followed by years of being paid 1500 Euros gross a month with endless proceedings in one's own car and 20 nights away from home in the cheapest hotels. No more of that.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 12:11
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 288
The current situation is not going to last. We all know that. If we ask too much from our employers, knowing that we are irreplaceable right now, they will perceive that as a kind of blackmail (at least mine would). And retaliate at the first opportunity. I've been in this business for nearly 30 years. The ups and downs come every five to eight years. With the tops and bottoms higher and deeper every time. Personally I will not ask anything extra from my employer now, only because I could. Because I know him as a man of honour and therefore I am confident that he will not replace me with a desperate unemployed 10.000hour airline captain in three or four years time when these become available again at 1/3 of my present salary. And they will, rest assured!
Your right to a degree. But its not blackmail and while i cannot speak for your current employer i know for a fact that employers take full advantage of any suppressed demand for pilots, so business demands this and also that the employee should also take full advantage as well. You believe otherwise at your peril as they are in business to make money, as are you. Its a nice idea being a man of honour but trust me that your employer will drop you like a hot potato should the market place demand it whether or not you are loyal. Sad i know.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 08:39
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Far away from LA
Age: 100
Posts: 1,032
There is no loyalty among operators, they are all the same, from the largest to the smallest..
Netjets fired the top 153 captains because they could do it.
The operator that i am flying for now, just hired the person whom is going to replace me in about a year ( even if he is not going to admit it), and he will fire me, with no after thoughts; thing is that I know it ( or feel it rather);

There is no more long term relationship ( very rare); take what you can when you can; it is not going to last...
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 17:42
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 54
Posts: 2,370
There is no loyalty among operators,
Thats not strictly true, I know what nexts boss personally, have flown for him as well and I would say he IS loyal. Having said that, he is NOT making his money in aviation and just uses his airplane as a business tool. IF his main business would go down dramatically, the aircraft - and what next - would be gone. Same at my place, the aircraft wa sup for sale when the company was in financial trouble.

Many operators are living hand-to-mouth, there is always the sword of damocles over ones head working for them. Wasnt Netjets and the top 153 more a tax/regulations issue ?
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 20:48
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Far away from LA
Age: 100
Posts: 1,032
Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Wasnt Netjets and the top 153 more a tax/regulations issue ?
Indeed they did not want to pay social charges 6 years down the road in France or in Belgium; therefore they took the seniority list from the top down and fired the first 153 captains without giving them the choice to relocate to a non-affected gateway.

Today, there is no more gateways in these countries for captains, some french ( F/O) are still there I believe, Quid when they will move to the left seat...
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 10:13
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Utopia
Posts: 591
Originally Posted by OutsideCAS View Post
Your right to a degree. But its not blackmail and while i cannot speak for your current employer i know for a fact that employers take full advantage of any suppressed demand for pilots, so business demands this and also that the employee should also take full advantage as well. You believe otherwise at your peril as they are in business to make money, as are you. Its a nice idea being a man of honour but trust me that your employer will drop you like a hot potato should the market place demand it whether or not you are loyal. Sad i know.
This is my view as well. Some management companies and operators are obviously more honorable than others, but the sad fact is that the sales team seems to look short term rather than long term and will accept degraded employment terms for the crew, which in turn results in degraded crew loyalty when it comes to the next better opportunity. I'm right there and see no reason in not admitting it. Your employment contract is basically defined by your notice period and that's a two way street.

Type: GVI Cpt.
Salary: (perhaps this is a little private). not to me. 144K Euro year
Per diems: 120-100 Euro day
Minimum hotel rating: 4 star or more
breakfast included: yes and no (deducted from per diem if yes)
health plan: On duty only and then note even 100% (you'll have to add (pay) extra yourself)
schooling: No (pilot home based in Europe)
flight tickets: yes in monkey class for any duration of time ( as I say; it was when I joined and it will be when I leave).
roster: 4wks on/4wks off
transfer:?
extras: FSI full service training contract (Excellent)

Have I missed anything big there? Private Ops / no charters / aircraft "shitty" home base / freelancing allowed on time off / 35 (42) days annual leave (to be taken during time off/aircraft maintenance) / 4 pilot ops / large management company / Good operational support.

EDIT: Q: What would make me leave. A: Shorter rotation ( think 21/17ish is ideal - 4wks is too long time away from family!). More attractive aircraft homebase. Positioning in other than monkey class. Any combination of the above - though not for any suspicious operator or client.

Last edited by Klimax; 31st Jan 2019 at 20:26.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 11:42
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 54
Posts: 2,370
Type: C680 / Capt / Nominated person flight ops
Salary: Not as much as Klimax, but not too far away - I`m fine with it. (not fine with the German taxes, but...thats another topic)
Per diems: as per German tax office allowance, varying from country to country
Minimum hotel rating: 4 star or more
breakfast included: yes and no (deducted from per diem if yes)
health plan: german state health insurance or private insurance paid half for by employer
schooling: No and N/A
LOL: no, but a scheme to provide employment within the company if medical lost for good.
flight tickets: yes in monkey class for any duration of time - but we only go to FSI via London, so its an hours flight and thats okay with me, no positioning. Used to be business when traveling to the US.
roster: hmmm, tricky one. We always have more than 8 days at home (usually around 14) and the flight plan is usually fixed 2-6 weeks beforehand, but changes do occur. Now we are 3 pilots and thus this is no problem whatsoever
extras: FSI once a year

Private (NCC) Ops / no charters / home base tricky / destinations often remote places / freelancing allowed on time off / 35 (42) days annual leave (partly to be taken during aircraft maintenance, on a gentlemen's agreement) / 3 pilot ops / flight planning done by me / operational support by third party when and if required / aircraft mx with nothing to be left to desire / safety first approach, with no pressure on operational personnel whatsoever
His dudeness is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2019, 13:50
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 944
Type: C560 / Capt
Salary: Not at liberty to reveal that to anyone. 50% part time employment, payment high enough to allow for german private health insurance. I am actually paid a little more than my wife who is a public servant in Germany with a university degree working full time during the week and often has to take stuff home over the weekend...
Per diems: as per German tax office allowance, varying from country to country
Minimum hotel rating: 4 star or more (don't care too much as most of my flights are day-return. On average one night away per week)
breakfast included: yes and no (inside Germany: no because of weird taxation, outside Germany: yes)
health plan: german private insurance paid half for by employer
pension: standard german social security
schooling: No (free of charge in Germany anyway including university where our son currently studies)
LOL: no and not necessary because of my other profession
flight tickets: yes in monkey class for any duration of time - but we only go to FSI via London, so its an hours flight and thats okay with me, almost no positioning.
roster: hmmm, tricky one. The flights for the aircraft owner (my employer) are known weeks in advance but the aircraft is operated by an AOC company who use it for charters which sometimes come at short notice. Charters are mainly for loog term customers who are well known, hardly any sh*tty broker flying. No standby duty.
extras: FSI twice per year
Company car: No need to go anywhere by car so none required. Would be a taxation nightmare anyway here in Germany...

Instructing and freelance work in my other profession are allowed on time off / annual leave partly to be taken during aircraft maintenance, on a gentlemen's agreement (which in some years can be four weeks in a row and we always schedule the large maintenance events in summer when the owner goes on holiday as well :-)
Full operational support, training, line maintenance, cleaning, caterting, etc. and second pilot provided by our AOC partner / aircraft maintenance with nothing to be left to desire / safety first approach, with no pressure on operational personnel whatsoever (flight ops manager of AOC is ex-airline guy)

Last edited by what next; 31st Jan 2019 at 14:02.
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