Low Hour FO positions...
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@Cerro
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you are wrong, we simply differ in this one area. My perspective as an aircraft owner may well be quite different than yours, as a pilot.
We wanted the best that was available at the time we hired, and we wanted a flight deck crew of near equal skills who could interact well together. We were lucky to get the guys we have. I would never disparage a pilot's choice of copilot.
We wanted the best that was available at the time we hired, and we wanted a flight deck crew of near equal skills who could interact well together. We were lucky to get the guys we have. I would never disparage a pilot's choice of copilot.
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Thank for the input.
I do have connections with the company I fly 'safety pilot' on the kingair with but as it's a single pilot operation a min of 1500 hrs is required. I love the flying, really love it, however none of the hours can be logged so it won't really help me become eligible for employment hours wise.
I instruct which I also enjoy but as we all know it's not enough to pay the mortgage. I do it part time so I can afford to live.
I see the point of experience and don't take that for granted but I do think a type rating would be a big leap either now or after another 1000hrs of teaching straight and level.....
I will persevere in my mission to secure a job on a corporate a/c....One day it will come good!!
I do have connections with the company I fly 'safety pilot' on the kingair with but as it's a single pilot operation a min of 1500 hrs is required. I love the flying, really love it, however none of the hours can be logged so it won't really help me become eligible for employment hours wise.
I instruct which I also enjoy but as we all know it's not enough to pay the mortgage. I do it part time so I can afford to live.
I see the point of experience and don't take that for granted but I do think a type rating would be a big leap either now or after another 1000hrs of teaching straight and level.....
I will persevere in my mission to secure a job on a corporate a/c....One day it will come good!!
however none of the hours can be logged so it won't really help me become eligible for employment hours wise.
Almost anything could spark my interest, but maybe an entrepreneurial past, military derring-do, top chef, Eton-Oxford, scumbag school-Oxford, former 1st class cabin crew etc etc. I would certainly value sitting next to a former eng. In all cases I wanted people who naturally relate appropriately with the client/boss, and had something between their ears. That tends to come with a high quality education (I would include military training in that), or if not, then a lot of life experience.
That is not correct. Keep a log of your "unloggable" hours in a separate logbook. I would much prefer to employ an FO who had 1000 "unloggable" hours on a King Air, than some rich kid who had a daddy-paid type rating and the regulatory minimum "loggable" sim-hours on type.
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I am on my 5th flying job. My career was instructing, airtaxi, commuter airline, corporate, and now specialty ops (fire bombing). Every job I got was through word of mouth contacts and the last three were out of the blue calls from persons I knew who gave me an inside steer to an unadvertised job opening.
I predict your first corporate job will have its origin in a casual un-planned conversation that at the time did not seem that important. Work hard, don't complain and keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. When an outfit is looking for a "good guy" you want to be the one they think about.
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Good thread
This has to be one of the best threads I have read in a long time! A lot of true words said from a lot of wise people! I personally worked my butt off to get that first job 24/7 ops and sales for 2 years to eventually get that first type rating!! It takes hard work and persistence!!!!
Only problem for me was my company went bust!! I now sit with two type ratings and just not enough hours (too much time spent in the office trying to get there)! Its not a good place to be! 50 resumes and about 100 phone calls later I can't even get a job sweeping the hangar floor :-( that won't stop me though!! You just have to keep plugging on, making connections, speaking to as many people as possible and something is bound to come round..
Only problem for me was my company went bust!! I now sit with two type ratings and just not enough hours (too much time spent in the office trying to get there)! Its not a good place to be! 50 resumes and about 100 phone calls later I can't even get a job sweeping the hangar floor :-( that won't stop me though!! You just have to keep plugging on, making connections, speaking to as many people as possible and something is bound to come round..
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I can only stress to get a job in OPS, such as being a dispatcher or working in crew control. If you have business background, try getting into sales.
I am now 1 year in dispatch, and if you do everyday work and make the crew's and operator's life easier, you'll be right there ready to jump when a man is needed. I have a final airline intervirw soon, which I hope to pass, otherwise I am sure there will be a non-airline job waiting eventually. (That's not to say I'd Not appreciate corporate, but if the airline wants me, it's obviously bye bye bizjets).
While you may not get to fly, the planning and OPS experience is worth a lot aswell if you set foot into your first jet - at least you've already seen a flight log and briefing package before.
Plus, you'll know all the ICAO airport codes of the world by hard (sad really), know which are good handling agents and have a lot of airport / FBO opening hrs memorized - that's good info to have downroute.
Hang in there!
I am now 1 year in dispatch, and if you do everyday work and make the crew's and operator's life easier, you'll be right there ready to jump when a man is needed. I have a final airline intervirw soon, which I hope to pass, otherwise I am sure there will be a non-airline job waiting eventually. (That's not to say I'd Not appreciate corporate, but if the airline wants me, it's obviously bye bye bizjets).
While you may not get to fly, the planning and OPS experience is worth a lot aswell if you set foot into your first jet - at least you've already seen a flight log and briefing package before.
Plus, you'll know all the ICAO airport codes of the world by hard (sad really), know which are good handling agents and have a lot of airport / FBO opening hrs memorized - that's good info to have downroute.
Hang in there!
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The captain drops over in the middle of the night, IFR, needing an approach to minimums.
The gall of considering transporting of millionaire around with 350 hrs of flight time as being anything close to enough is incredible.
The gall of considering transporting of millionaire around with 350 hrs of flight time as being anything close to enough is incredible.
You are have obviously never experienced the reality of airline ops today. No modern airline gig will ever be able to beat a really good corporate job, and I will admit they are the minority, but the with right boss, flying corporate big iron will be as close as you can get to aviation Nirvana.
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Thanks for the input guys....
I agree with all the points raised and will get involved with a separate logbook for my 'unloggable' kingair time.
I see the point about the type rating being a big jump but I do feel when operating the nav kit, talking to atc, setting up approach instruments etc I could be doing it all in something a bit quicker and getting paid for the privlage too!
Completely agree on the ops job, my issue is that I'm in a emergency service that I've been in for 12 years so I would be reluctant to leave my career for anything less than a full time flying job. Might sound short sighted but I love my job, just love flying that bit more. I couldn't do an office job...
My life experience has been at a good level after seeing/ dealing with hundreds of stressful situations. I can also talk *********** for hours so stop overs are never a problem!!
I agree with all the points raised and will get involved with a separate logbook for my 'unloggable' kingair time.
I see the point about the type rating being a big jump but I do feel when operating the nav kit, talking to atc, setting up approach instruments etc I could be doing it all in something a bit quicker and getting paid for the privlage too!
Completely agree on the ops job, my issue is that I'm in a emergency service that I've been in for 12 years so I would be reluctant to leave my career for anything less than a full time flying job. Might sound short sighted but I love my job, just love flying that bit more. I couldn't do an office job...
My life experience has been at a good level after seeing/ dealing with hundreds of stressful situations. I can also talk *********** for hours so stop overs are never a problem!!
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You are have obviously never experienced the reality of airline ops today. No modern airline gig will ever be able to beat a really good corporate job, and I will admit they are the minority, but the with right boss, flying corporate big iron will be as close as you can get to aviation Nirvana.
Again that's not to say I wouldn't appreciate a corporate job. I love business aviation and it's up- and downsides and run a small business myself working with people inthe bizav world.
It's simply a choice (and again that's only really an issue if I pass that final interview) based on my current life situation and where I hope to go within the next few years.
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I'd rather fly 900hrs a year for a while
Be careful what you wish for.
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I really dislike the narrowvision of most companies. Nowadays it is all about typerating typerating typerating and typerating. If you apply and you say i have this and this experience, the company replies 'wow, very interesting and do you have this typerating??" "euh no". "sorry we dont need you then, bye".
Sometime i read job adverts with the most stupid requirements: typerated and 50h on type!! 50h ontype!!!! Come on, just say we offer you a job and you pay the typerating.
Makes me all really sick.
Sometime i read job adverts with the most stupid requirements: typerated and 50h on type!! 50h ontype!!!! Come on, just say we offer you a job and you pay the typerating.
Makes me all really sick.
Loads of airline hours don't necessarily mean much on bizjets. We recently had two FOs join about the same time - one had 4500 hours on regional airlines, the other had about 1000, mostly on MEPs single-pilot, and on gliders before that.
The ex-airline guy was hired because he had enough hours to satisfy the insurance requirements for captain, and was expected to make LHS in six months. However, it quickly became apparent that he had no operational savvy, having done all his hours P2 without taking any responsibility, and with an ops department doing all the backup, flying a few fixed routes. He was a flying robot, good at rigid adherence to checklists and SOPs, but unable to think on his feet when faced with the unexpected. In the end, the company didn't renew his contract.
On the other hand, the MEP guy was used to running ops himself, knew how to flight plan himself, how to deal with CFMU, how to save fuel, how to fly visual approaches, when to go VFR if necessary, wasn't the slightest fazed by going into an unfamiliar airport, and was happy to do the menial jobs like cleaning the aircraft and updating the jepps. He's ready to go LHS already, and just waiting for enough hours to satisfy the insurance. His fewer P1 hours on a MEP were far more valuable than loads of P2 on an airline.
The ex-airline guy was hired because he had enough hours to satisfy the insurance requirements for captain, and was expected to make LHS in six months. However, it quickly became apparent that he had no operational savvy, having done all his hours P2 without taking any responsibility, and with an ops department doing all the backup, flying a few fixed routes. He was a flying robot, good at rigid adherence to checklists and SOPs, but unable to think on his feet when faced with the unexpected. In the end, the company didn't renew his contract.
On the other hand, the MEP guy was used to running ops himself, knew how to flight plan himself, how to deal with CFMU, how to save fuel, how to fly visual approaches, when to go VFR if necessary, wasn't the slightest fazed by going into an unfamiliar airport, and was happy to do the menial jobs like cleaning the aircraft and updating the jepps. He's ready to go LHS already, and just waiting for enough hours to satisfy the insurance. His fewer P1 hours on a MEP were far more valuable than loads of P2 on an airline.
Last edited by Trim Stab; 21st Nov 2011 at 10:35.
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I have a final airline intervirw soon, which I hope to pass
Loads of airline hours don't necessarily mean much on bizjets. We recently had two FOs join about the same time - one had 4500 hours on regional airlines, the other had about 1000, mostly on MEPs single-pilot, and on gliders before that.
The ex-airline guy was hired because he had enough hours to satisfy the insurance requirements for captain, and was expected to make LHS in six months. However, it quickly became apparent that he had no operational savvy, having done all his hours P2 without taking any responsibility, and with an ops department doing all the backup, flying a few fixed routes. He was a flying robot, good at rigid adherence to checklists and SOPs, but unable to think on his feet when faced with the unexpected. In the end, the company didn't renew his contract.
On the other hand, the MEP guy was used to running ops himself, knew how to flight plan himself, how to deal with CFMU, how to save fuel, how to fly visual approaches, when to go VFR if necessary, wasn't the slightest fazed by going into an unfamiliar airport, and was happy to do the menial jobs like cleaning the aircraft and updating the jepps. He's ready to go LHS already, and just waiting for enough hours to satisfy the insurance. His fewer P1 hours on a MEP were far more valuable than loads of P2 on an airline.
The ex-airline guy was hired because he had enough hours to satisfy the insurance requirements for captain, and was expected to make LHS in six months. However, it quickly became apparent that he had no operational savvy, having done all his hours P2 without taking any responsibility, and with an ops department doing all the backup, flying a few fixed routes. He was a flying robot, good at rigid adherence to checklists and SOPs, but unable to think on his feet when faced with the unexpected. In the end, the company didn't renew his contract.
On the other hand, the MEP guy was used to running ops himself, knew how to flight plan himself, how to deal with CFMU, how to save fuel, how to fly visual approaches, when to go VFR if necessary, wasn't the slightest fazed by going into an unfamiliar airport, and was happy to do the menial jobs like cleaning the aircraft and updating the jepps. He's ready to go LHS already, and just waiting for enough hours to satisfy the insurance. His fewer P1 hours on a MEP were far more valuable than loads of P2 on an airline.
The visual appr. etc. are a different beast...you have got to learn these things by watching (IMO) no sim will get you there. Plenty of airliners do loads of visuals - e.g. the guys flying to greek islands etc.
Now, OTOH hand I had a colleague who was a captain for a long time in an executive charter operation that went into smaller/VFR airfields a lot and he was so uncertain of himself that he never gave such approaches to his F/O.
There was one airfield with a 1500m runway that we went practically 3 times a week and his 2 year long almost exclusive F/O was not allowed to land there a single time. I upgraded to the aircraft type and thaught: wow this F/O has like a 1000hrs, on this type, good thing he is here to hold my hand, he surely can show you how to fly this thingy etcetc. (I had enjoyed 'minimal' supervision...) How wrong I was.
He never learned the REAL important things. He was/is a better checklist handler/SOP knight than I ever will be...
My point is: we can´t generalize things like that...
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Hello everyone.
I’m a new guy on the forum even I have been a follower for a few years. Hopefully I will participate from now on.
I just want to share that if you wish to get a flying job it is really difficult to get it through a operations department. I have been working in Ops for over 6 years. My company doesn’t give me a chance do to my low hours (500) and the other operators do not take in to consideration my experience in Ops, they refer as well to my low hous as well.
FR
I’m a new guy on the forum even I have been a follower for a few years. Hopefully I will participate from now on.
I just want to share that if you wish to get a flying job it is really difficult to get it through a operations department. I have been working in Ops for over 6 years. My company doesn’t give me a chance do to my low hours (500) and the other operators do not take in to consideration my experience in Ops, they refer as well to my low hous as well.
FR
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Experience in ops does not necessarily count very much towards a job as a pilot, BUT, you meet the pilots who may one day be able to get you in. This will not happen if you are stacking shelves in Tesco's . The future aint for the faint hearted, stick with it, you will get there.
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One of the pitfalls of corporate flying is a lack of flying, so a low time pilot remains a low time pilot for a long time, are you going to be happy in 5-10 years time to discover that you dont have the hours to move to the left seat or to different equipment?
I have colleagues who have flown less than 200 hrs in 3 years, are they any more employable then the day they joined? Apart from a steady salary, what exactly have they achieved?
Mutt
I have colleagues who have flown less than 200 hrs in 3 years, are they any more employable then the day they joined? Apart from a steady salary, what exactly have they achieved?
Mutt
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Joe - Thanks for being frank! I will now add to my 'hobbies, interests, clubs, associations' section of my resume...of course to make room I will have to cut back the section where I detail hours, ratings, work experience, flight schools attended etc.
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I'm doing over 500 hours a year, get paid well, and am treated nicely.
I also know folks who do a lot less so Mutt isn't wrong, but there are corporate jobs where you do get to gain hours and experience at a rate usually associated with regional airline stuff.
I also know folks who do a lot less so Mutt isn't wrong, but there are corporate jobs where you do get to gain hours and experience at a rate usually associated with regional airline stuff.