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Low Hour FO positions...

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Low Hour FO positions...

Old 17th Nov 2011, 14:51
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Low Hour FO positions...

Any people in the Biz jet world know of any previous recruiters of low hour FO's into the biz jet world?

I've written, emailed and pleaded for a break with all the uk operators I can think of/ find but the general response in 1000 hrs plus.

I'm an FI (350TT)and safety pilot on Kingair's and really want to get into the biz jet world rather than FR etc etc

PM's welcomed!!!
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 16:41
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In my little experience in bizjet world what really matters, at least for FOs, is not the experience, but the contacts you have.
You might also have 5000 hours on the space shuttle, but be sure that the 200 hrs guy will take the job if with the right contacts with the owner, management or captains in the company.

Different story if we are talking of operators like Netjets or similar.

Sad but true.

Networking, networking and networking, that's the way if you want to make it in this world.

Good luck!
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 19:20
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We only recently closed for applicants and we were looking for a FO and Captains. Previous FO's started with 250 hours so the jobs do exist.

I doubt the boss would appreciate me giving our name out and him receiving a flood of late cv's. I know some who applied had been "networking", seems to be the way Corporate works.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 19:56
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How do you biz jet folk suggest networking?

I don't know any biz jet pilots which is a non starter from the word go!
I've considered visiting some companies to hand my CV in by hand but knowing how busy these ops departments get figured it would be more of a nuisance that anything......

Do any of you want to be my friend? (Lol) I'll buy you a beer
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 21:17
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Our requirements for F/O were 2500 hours total 1000 turbine, 50 in type and PIC type rating. Captain (I think) was 4000 hours total, 1000 jet, 500 in type. We don't expect to hire again for a very, very long time.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 22:56
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That's typical requirements from what I've seen.

Experienced pilots have to start running thin on the ground one day don't they? If no companies give low hour FO's a shot then surely there will be a shortage of experience out there....

It's the same in the airline world. Things must change soon! After all, someone gave these experienced guys a start when they started out.

I'll get there in the end
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 05:10
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I'm currently reading a book on Human Factors in the flight deck and surprisingly it appears that quite often the best performing team is not the one with two very experienced pilots up front, having someone in the right hand seat with what we consider "low hours" can have surprising benefits.

Now I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure there are many many factors to consider and you could probably make statistics fit the other way around but it did make for an interesting read.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 08:18
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@Marcus550

Your requirements for FOs are harsh...what aircraft are you operating???
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 08:48
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Cecco

How much experience do you think someone should have to get into the right seat of a Gulfstream 550 operated by a corporation?

Mutt
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 09:18
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To attract a type rated Global or G550 pilot, the terms would have to be absolutely exceptional - they simply arent on the market. Probably cheaper to offer the rating.

Hours aren't important to me for an F/O, although some air-taxi time is great. Background and attitude is the number one for me. And some demonstrable stick skills (eg an airsport, or even a motorsport). I didn't used to take a whole lot of notice of personal recommendations/networking - instead, some CVs are so interesting, I just want to meet them (and find out if they are bullshitting)
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 09:47
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I'm an FI (350TT)and safety pilot on Kingair's
If you are safety pilot on King Airs, it sounds to me as though you already have your 'in', no?

Contrary to how it might feel, 350 hours in the whole scheme of things is really NOT that many and unless you are exceptionally gifted, if you go on a type rating course for most biz jets - you'll probably struggle.

In your position I would sweat your nuts off to get some more hours somehow (para dropping, glider towing, take your friends on some adventures and cost share) meanwhile cultivating your King Air connection.

Impress the King Air guys with your attitude, reliability and enthusiasm and see where that goes? Could you afford to get a King Air type rating? Would the King Air guys let you fly as PIC on empty legs if you got rated?
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 09:52
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@mutt

1500 TT and 500 turbine hours are sufficient for a FO on a G550! Anybody disagrees?
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 09:58
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I'm with JS - somebody with only 350 hours is not really that useful in RHS, sometimes the lack of experience just causes more work for the Captain. Best stay on the KA until you have about 1000 hours. Even if you are not TRd on the KA, keep a separate log of the hours you have flown on it - they do count to employers (in GA, at least).
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 10:02
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@Vone Rotate

Your networking question...you don´t have to be necessarily good friends
with the owner/flight ops manager etc. BUT if they see something in your CV what they like, they might also invite you for an interview e.g for corporate aviation, if you are/were in the same field like your prospective employer or any other common ground "creating" familiarity. As some posters have pointed out, in smaller companies, the recruitment criteria can be highly subjective whereas bigger companies like Netjets have their established standard recruitment procedure.

Cecco
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 10:07
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I'm with you Cecco - Ample. I had a command on a jet heavier than a G550 with little more hours than that.

Of course you have to watch them like a hawk when they start with 200h in their book, but by 500h, they are well up to speed. Much better than hiring some oik who makes the bosses eyes roll, or some guy with loads of low quality hours, who reckons he's ace of the base.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 10:33
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Just browsed 6 months of climbto350.com, not many Gulfstream F/O jobs advertised, these are the requirements....

[1] Typed on 450/550, 2000 total hours, 500 on type.

[2] GIV type rating with 1000 hrs on type.

[3] GIV SIC, 3000 hrs, 1500 jet, 300 on type.

[4] 3500 hrs, GIV type preferred.

[5] G450, type rated.

[6] GII/III, 1500 TT, 500 ME, 250 JET, Typed.

Your suggested requirements appear lower than what the market is expecting. It also happens to be an extremely expensive type rating to get without a guaranteed job to fly the aircraft.

Mutt
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 11:11
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Hi Joe

It’s refreshing to hear that someone in recruitment will look beyond total hours, which FTO a candidate studied at or who the candidate/ their family are friendly with. Excuse my naivety but it would almost sound like an outbreak of common sense, it’s a shame that it is not more widespread.

Looking in from the outside it appears that there are people involved in pilot recruitment who have never flown and slavishly obey stated minimums for all applicants with no application of common sense or judgement or senior pilots involved have forgotten that they were once low hours, inexperienced pilots looking for a break.

I came into the piloting world as a ‘career changer’ after having served as an Avionics Engineer in the military and saving sufficient funds to finance my own training without the scary loans that the younger candidates are forced to endure. As a consequence I don’t have ‘experience commensurate with age’ as I see mentioned a lot in recruitment ads and I am not on friendly terms with senior pilots.

So it does my morale good to note that recruitment is not a totally closed shop to older modular students who are not well connected.

You mention having called applicants who had CVs which interested you, as an insight what sort of content constitutes ‘interesting’ and sets one CV apart from a bunch of others?
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 11:41
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@Cecco

We operate a G550, the experience requirements we used in seeking candidates were recommended by a consulting firm, and in fact both of our initial hires, captain and f/o exceeded those numbers substantially.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 12:10
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@marcus550 @mutt

Ok, fair enough, you are right, I was wrong!

Cecco
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 14:22
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@Cecco - usually US based operators look for more hours than us. Sometimes insurances play a vital role in the scenario as well.

I had sort of to little hours no matter how much I had until I had too much !

I started on a little Turboprop, tried to get to a bigger one: no, not enough TP hours. When I had the hours, there was too little EFIS time. Got eventually there, then I had to little Jet experience. Made some Jet time - then I all of a sudden was having too much command time, to get into an airline...

In fact a friend of mine just 'adjusted' his hours down close to the maximum allowable and joined said airline with roughly 3000hrs more than they knew.

If the market ever (I doubt it) turns back, then all the barriers now in force will be gone. That has been the game in Aviation for a long, long time.
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