Blink update
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Proceeeding Outbound
By comparing executive jet travel to the low cost airlines demonstates that you do not have the first clue about the economics of this industry. Of course you can create a market for £10 tickets because it did not exist before. The low costs manage this by achieving 5,000 hours per year utilisation and getting the crew to pay for their training (I am lucky to get 500 hours but I have NEVER asked a pilot to pay for a type rating). You cannot persuade many people to pay £10,000 to go to Malaga if they do not already do it. The market is stagnant for us and has even shrunk over the last 3 years. So tell me where do the start ups get their market?? Please tell me because I guess I have been doing something pretty stupid for the last 37 years.
Work this one one out The largest operator (Net Jets) cannot even make a profit and that is even with the clients paying for the cost of the aircraft. If it had not been for the largesse of Mr Buffett Net Jets would have folded years ago.
There is a market for start ups: find a small niche and do it well on a very very low cost base. That includes the armani suited mob cleaning out the aircraft loos at 3 o'clock in the morning ready for the next morning. Phil has had to do it and I certainly still have to.
Giving out all thse pearls of wisdom for free.... I must be going soft
By comparing executive jet travel to the low cost airlines demonstates that you do not have the first clue about the economics of this industry. Of course you can create a market for £10 tickets because it did not exist before. The low costs manage this by achieving 5,000 hours per year utilisation and getting the crew to pay for their training (I am lucky to get 500 hours but I have NEVER asked a pilot to pay for a type rating). You cannot persuade many people to pay £10,000 to go to Malaga if they do not already do it. The market is stagnant for us and has even shrunk over the last 3 years. So tell me where do the start ups get their market?? Please tell me because I guess I have been doing something pretty stupid for the last 37 years.
Work this one one out The largest operator (Net Jets) cannot even make a profit and that is even with the clients paying for the cost of the aircraft. If it had not been for the largesse of Mr Buffett Net Jets would have folded years ago.
There is a market for start ups: find a small niche and do it well on a very very low cost base. That includes the armani suited mob cleaning out the aircraft loos at 3 o'clock in the morning ready for the next morning. Phil has had to do it and I certainly still have to.
Giving out all thse pearls of wisdom for free.... I must be going soft
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Phil and hawker..
Bang on the money there guys.
Proceeding Outbound,
Along with the proliferation of past and potential fractional ownership schemes, many of which have collapsed, attempting to copy the netjets model within the US was never and never will be viable within Europe, or in fact many areas of the globe. It is simply due to the timing and placing of the enterprise that existed at the time within the economic structure available that allowed netjets to grow as it did.
Creating a market is both uneconomic and potentially similar to a illegitimate trading practises and can delve into realms of legality. Creating a market is a inherently dangerous to any form of industry as it is based on an illusion of a market that does not exist within the realms of viability within the market place. What does exist is the potential to exploit niche markets that are currently either undeserved or not serviced by current operators. There is a distinct difference there.
Both the Charter and management markets within the UK and the EU are distinctly different from those in other markets. To create a market as before is unviable and to a degree it is reinventing the wheel and simply as a business is not viable in the medium to long term, as has been shown.
Established businesses are exactly that established in the market and with the specific markets and customers defined and served, these may grow and evolve into new market niches that are established as undeserved or not served as they evolve, though essentially they exist as established businesses.
NB: this is shortened down into a couple of paragraphs to prevent a boring and lengthy précis of an industry sector.
Bang on the money there guys.
Proceeding Outbound,
Along with the proliferation of past and potential fractional ownership schemes, many of which have collapsed, attempting to copy the netjets model within the US was never and never will be viable within Europe, or in fact many areas of the globe. It is simply due to the timing and placing of the enterprise that existed at the time within the economic structure available that allowed netjets to grow as it did.
Creating a market is both uneconomic and potentially similar to a illegitimate trading practises and can delve into realms of legality. Creating a market is a inherently dangerous to any form of industry as it is based on an illusion of a market that does not exist within the realms of viability within the market place. What does exist is the potential to exploit niche markets that are currently either undeserved or not serviced by current operators. There is a distinct difference there.
Both the Charter and management markets within the UK and the EU are distinctly different from those in other markets. To create a market as before is unviable and to a degree it is reinventing the wheel and simply as a business is not viable in the medium to long term, as has been shown.
Established businesses are exactly that established in the market and with the specific markets and customers defined and served, these may grow and evolve into new market niches that are established as undeserved or not served as they evolve, though essentially they exist as established businesses.
NB: this is shortened down into a couple of paragraphs to prevent a boring and lengthy précis of an industry sector.
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I'm sure a lot of clever people would call that a lack of vision.
But enough said! You are not going to change your opinion and I am going to keep an open mind. Shall we move on now?
But enough said! You are not going to change your opinion and I am going to keep an open mind. Shall we move on now?
Last edited by proceeding outbound; 24th Apr 2011 at 20:49.
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The reason they have failed or failing is the recession, if they had had 2 to 3 years runup to the market we had in late 2006 / 2007. Then theres a chance just a chance that it might have worked.
Reflecting over 30 odd years in the industry doesn't deserve the kudos it sounds like it does unfortunately, aircraft change, industries change, with 30% of the corporation tax revenue coming from the financial sector, the advent of online searching for suppliers...
The lower cost end of the market will bring in new money and new business so in some ways by using mustangs, Blink were better equipped than anybody else including centreline to expand a market with new custom. People spouting off that the market will only ever be one size is showing no memory of recent pre recession times gone by. My old Excel sold for more in 2007 than we paid for it in 2001 - you telling me there was no new money about then??
Without sounding like a suited powerpoint presenter, in a better market guided by somebody with a straight bat and a bit of vision, they might have made it run true to the business plan in which case when they swapped to Phenom 100s added Excels and Phenom 300's to the fleet and expanded into Europe you traditional operators would have been in trouble without doubt.
The reason why I say this is your dependence on brokers, for its them in truth Im worried for. They'll no doubt argue about getting the right aircraft for the right price but there may be a couple of major broker players in 20 years but the rest will lack the will or financial resources to commit to technologies that havent been created yet, where will your business come from then?
Rather than sit back and sound off with a "told you so attitude", you might consider the recession your friend, Blinks management did traditional operators a huge favour....me.... I think you've had a narrow escape...
Reflecting over 30 odd years in the industry doesn't deserve the kudos it sounds like it does unfortunately, aircraft change, industries change, with 30% of the corporation tax revenue coming from the financial sector, the advent of online searching for suppliers...
The lower cost end of the market will bring in new money and new business so in some ways by using mustangs, Blink were better equipped than anybody else including centreline to expand a market with new custom. People spouting off that the market will only ever be one size is showing no memory of recent pre recession times gone by. My old Excel sold for more in 2007 than we paid for it in 2001 - you telling me there was no new money about then??
Without sounding like a suited powerpoint presenter, in a better market guided by somebody with a straight bat and a bit of vision, they might have made it run true to the business plan in which case when they swapped to Phenom 100s added Excels and Phenom 300's to the fleet and expanded into Europe you traditional operators would have been in trouble without doubt.
The reason why I say this is your dependence on brokers, for its them in truth Im worried for. They'll no doubt argue about getting the right aircraft for the right price but there may be a couple of major broker players in 20 years but the rest will lack the will or financial resources to commit to technologies that havent been created yet, where will your business come from then?
Rather than sit back and sound off with a "told you so attitude", you might consider the recession your friend, Blinks management did traditional operators a huge favour....me.... I think you've had a narrow escape...
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CJ Boy
Anything but a cartel
We had to fight for every job with other operators it was not handed to us o plate.
The Brokers made sure of that so you are talking rubbish when you mention the word Cartel
We were operating contracts for some big companies which included some Goverment ran contracts and believe me they wanted to know where every penny went.
your tital says it all CJBoy Newish A/C Newish Poster
And before you say yes I Know i cant spell
Back to me chickens
We had to fight for every job with other operators it was not handed to us o plate.
The Brokers made sure of that so you are talking rubbish when you mention the word Cartel
We were operating contracts for some big companies which included some Goverment ran contracts and believe me they wanted to know where every penny went.
your tital says it all CJBoy Newish A/C Newish Poster
And before you say yes I Know i cant spell
Back to me chickens
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The bottom line is that Blinks strategy from the outset was based on bucking the market by cutting out brokers. They made claims of being Europes first A to B air taxi company and complete b&llocks like that and thought they would take over the world. By doing that, they set themselves up for a very hard fall as and when it doesn't quite got to plan.
Brokers don't feel inclined to support them in their hour of need (why should they?), nor do other operators (why should they?). They seem to have alienated themselves from the rest of the market and this, coupled with the luke warm response to the Mustang as a product will probably sound the death knell ultimately.
Those who seem to support their cause based on the jobs they create should perhaps think about the effect, both long and short term, and what the impact on the market has actual been. By funding their low rates with start up capital (and rather a lot of it), they have effectively lowered the bar. If everyone else has to lower rates to compete, then ultimately this drives down salaries and reduces investment in infrastructure improvements in more established operators.
The same punters will be there, and will still book charters, but at realisitc rates. That might just mean that operator paying decent salaries, aiding pilots for type ratings and generally raising the bar for both employee and client alike.
I'm sure that the whole blink story will make a great dissertation for future business studies graduates at Harvard one day. Apply the swiss cheese model to Blink and you'll see plenty of holes lining up.
FNPL
Brokers don't feel inclined to support them in their hour of need (why should they?), nor do other operators (why should they?). They seem to have alienated themselves from the rest of the market and this, coupled with the luke warm response to the Mustang as a product will probably sound the death knell ultimately.
Those who seem to support their cause based on the jobs they create should perhaps think about the effect, both long and short term, and what the impact on the market has actual been. By funding their low rates with start up capital (and rather a lot of it), they have effectively lowered the bar. If everyone else has to lower rates to compete, then ultimately this drives down salaries and reduces investment in infrastructure improvements in more established operators.
The same punters will be there, and will still book charters, but at realisitc rates. That might just mean that operator paying decent salaries, aiding pilots for type ratings and generally raising the bar for both employee and client alike.
I'm sure that the whole blink story will make a great dissertation for future business studies graduates at Harvard one day. Apply the swiss cheese model to Blink and you'll see plenty of holes lining up.
FNPL
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Hi Guys,
Been following this thread for the last couple of weeks (I'm low hours trying to get my first job and applied to Blink when they were advertising (albeit briefly) earlier this year).
Obviously the main topic of conversation recently centres around Blink's demise. However I was just wondering if this has actually happened or is it all speculation? I've googled it, as well as looking on Blink's website and there's absolutely no mention of it.
Just curious.
Been following this thread for the last couple of weeks (I'm low hours trying to get my first job and applied to Blink when they were advertising (albeit briefly) earlier this year).
Obviously the main topic of conversation recently centres around Blink's demise. However I was just wondering if this has actually happened or is it all speculation? I've googled it, as well as looking on Blink's website and there's absolutely no mention of it.
Just curious.
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hawker750
Yes I am. As are you telling me "I have no clue" just because my opinion is different to yours!
I honestly believe you can create new markets or expand existing ones. Just because Blink didnt get it right doesnt mean it cant be done. The current market will never expand as long as we sit and wait for the phone to ring (broker). Just because you have done that for the last 30 years doesnt mean its the best way to do it.
If you look back at aviation history it is noticeable that aviation was only for the elite in the early years but over time the market was expanded (something you and Phil claim cant be done). Maybe Blink are just trying to do it too quickly.
And yes, the Air Taxi model is not genius, just a variation on a standard charter company but maybe the variation required to expand the market.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings but it was obvious you would not consider alternate ideas and I was therefore wasting my time with sensible replies.
I honestly believe you can create new markets or expand existing ones. Just because Blink didnt get it right doesnt mean it cant be done. The current market will never expand as long as we sit and wait for the phone to ring (broker). Just because you have done that for the last 30 years doesnt mean its the best way to do it.
If you look back at aviation history it is noticeable that aviation was only for the elite in the early years but over time the market was expanded (something you and Phil claim cant be done). Maybe Blink are just trying to do it too quickly.
And yes, the Air Taxi model is not genius, just a variation on a standard charter company but maybe the variation required to expand the market.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings but it was obvious you would not consider alternate ideas and I was therefore wasting my time with sensible replies.
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This is turning into an interesting thread in which I feel the brokers are being cast as the bad guys,
This business needs brokers, as the cost of a strong presence on the internet and click through costs cannot be justified by a company offering just a one type product such as the C510 or indeed a fleet of CJs !!
our company has a small percentage of direct customers but by far our best customers are the brokers who are working hard to deliver the best solution for their customers on a trip by trip basis in the face of strong competition.
In addition they carry the credit risk and monitor the performance of the operator to ensure the quality delivered meets customer expectations.
a typical clients travel needs may require a king air, CJ2 or a G5 dependant on the distance and load of the the day.
We will take no pleasure in BLINKS possible demise and anyway the other very good C510 operators like LEA will fill the gap.
Rest assured if the Blink dream goes south we will have a new kid on the block within days to take their place,
With respect to my old friend Jerry, the business has changed beyond recognition since you where a player buddy, it was indeed a gentle business in the day, but never the less it gets more exiting as the years roll by.
Our company has been the starting point for hundreds of pilot careers, which is one of the major joys of my time is this business.
So guys be nice to each other and stop talking a load of tosh.
I do not post under a stupid alias so you know who I am.
This business needs brokers, as the cost of a strong presence on the internet and click through costs cannot be justified by a company offering just a one type product such as the C510 or indeed a fleet of CJs !!
our company has a small percentage of direct customers but by far our best customers are the brokers who are working hard to deliver the best solution for their customers on a trip by trip basis in the face of strong competition.
In addition they carry the credit risk and monitor the performance of the operator to ensure the quality delivered meets customer expectations.
a typical clients travel needs may require a king air, CJ2 or a G5 dependant on the distance and load of the the day.
We will take no pleasure in BLINKS possible demise and anyway the other very good C510 operators like LEA will fill the gap.
Rest assured if the Blink dream goes south we will have a new kid on the block within days to take their place,
With respect to my old friend Jerry, the business has changed beyond recognition since you where a player buddy, it was indeed a gentle business in the day, but never the less it gets more exiting as the years roll by.
Our company has been the starting point for hundreds of pilot careers, which is one of the major joys of my time is this business.
So guys be nice to each other and stop talking a load of tosh.
I do not post under a stupid alias so you know who I am.
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I dont think anybody here is accusing brokers of being bad guys. Just like low cost airlines have bypassed travel agents, in this modern day of communications business jet travelers will no doubt slowly move to self booking, especially in these economic times. All it needs is for someone to write a good smartphone APP.
If I were to point out an industry bad guy I could point at many of the handling agents who's charges are astronomical. Then maybe catering companies!
If I were to point out an industry bad guy I could point at many of the handling agents who's charges are astronomical. Then maybe catering companies!
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Is there an assumption that existing Brokers are not creating / cashing in on / chasing new markets - how many times a month do we fly passengers on their first flight only to see them regularly thereafter?
Proceding outbound - People have tried with the website / smartphone app. The problem there is that (apart from Blink) the operators don't want it, and the brokers don't want it. Without the support of one, if not both, it won't work. Privatefly are giving it a bloody good go, and whilst their business is greatly appreciated, the level of enquiries is still really quite low, and the fix rates lower.
Guys, we work in a highly skilled Industry - I wouldn't try and run a company in an industry that I had no experience in, we are not in the asset management business, we are in the compliance / customer service / asset management and logistics business - and you can't learn that lot at harvard!
Proceding outbound - People have tried with the website / smartphone app. The problem there is that (apart from Blink) the operators don't want it, and the brokers don't want it. Without the support of one, if not both, it won't work. Privatefly are giving it a bloody good go, and whilst their business is greatly appreciated, the level of enquiries is still really quite low, and the fix rates lower.
Guys, we work in a highly skilled Industry - I wouldn't try and run a company in an industry that I had no experience in, we are not in the asset management business, we are in the compliance / customer service / asset management and logistics business - and you can't learn that lot at harvard!
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Flynow,
I think they will, the busy months are starting now, more positive cashflow transactions, and more hours to be had. Certainly they have direct market penetration in The City, that market seems to be bubbling away, and whilst by no means bouyant, it's far better than last year and suited quite well to the airframe they are operating. If your question was 12 months I'd be more reserved in my opinion.
PB
I think they will, the busy months are starting now, more positive cashflow transactions, and more hours to be had. Certainly they have direct market penetration in The City, that market seems to be bubbling away, and whilst by no means bouyant, it's far better than last year and suited quite well to the airframe they are operating. If your question was 12 months I'd be more reserved in my opinion.
PB
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Lost the ability to bring in revenue
Been following the posts and some very interesting points been made, but the one really bizarre thing that Blink seem to have done is get rid of staff, including pilots just before the busy period. In anyone's book that restricts your ability to make money. So then comes the question why would a company do such a bizarre thing? Is it very poor management or is there another reason? Time will tell.
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Topjetgeezer -
Crew and staff are bloody expensive - if margins are going to remain this tight for a while, sweat the asset for as little overhead as you can whilst retaining quality - Blink have lost some of the Brokers faith, so will have a relatively high marketing and customer services overhead (much higher than just looking after the brokers who do this for you).
Poor management? It could be the complete opposite - revenues and speed of growth will be fairly well documented withing those in the know at Blink - adjusting your overhead to generate break even / profit from what is on the table shows good management to me.
PB
Crew and staff are bloody expensive - if margins are going to remain this tight for a while, sweat the asset for as little overhead as you can whilst retaining quality - Blink have lost some of the Brokers faith, so will have a relatively high marketing and customer services overhead (much higher than just looking after the brokers who do this for you).
Poor management? It could be the complete opposite - revenues and speed of growth will be fairly well documented withing those in the know at Blink - adjusting your overhead to generate break even / profit from what is on the table shows good management to me.
PB