small jet down in London
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I may have missed it, but has anyone answered the question posted pages back:
Did the aircraft depart runway 21 and then crash having flown almost a full circuit to return, or did it crash having departed 03 and attempted to turn back?
Sorry if it's a dumb question but I can't seem to find an answer here or on the TV.
As for not having houses under the approach to airports: That's most of West London for the bulldozer then!
Did the aircraft depart runway 21 and then crash having flown almost a full circuit to return, or did it crash having departed 03 and attempted to turn back?
Sorry if it's a dumb question but I can't seem to find an answer here or on the TV.
As for not having houses under the approach to airports: That's most of West London for the bulldozer then!
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Local report
As some one who saw the aircraft just prior to the crash, I can report the following.
The pilot was flying very low just 400 yards or so from my home flying 45 degrees to runway 21 (I think you call this base leg) and must have crashed just as he turned to line up for the runway. My home is about a mile from the crash site and 3 miles from runway 21.
What I saw was the aircraft dipping its wings, as if in salute. No doubt, this was the pilot trying to keep the aircraft in level flight. The sound from the aircraft engines was as if it was low on power, not a lot of nuts and bolts rattling as some people have said.
It also looked as if the pilot was trying to land on the football field near the crash site. Unfortunately the field was in use by local school children at the time. Some of the children were away from school today (Monday) due to the shock of seeing the crash.
As for the fire attendance, I understand from local people. Fire services from Orpington and Bromley were called out. Biggin Hill airport fire services also attended (yellow fire truck in BBC video). Search and rescue helicopters ZH-544 from the RAF and G-BIMU Coastguard where also in attendance (obtained from photographs taken by myself).
No doubt this crash will raise the question of a main hospital being on the approach to runway 21 which is located also about 400 yards from the crash site. Pressure will once again be brought on Biggin Hill to be restricted to the type of aircraft using the airport.
May those who were lost in the crash, rest in peace. We owe a lot to the skill of the crew.
The pilot was flying very low just 400 yards or so from my home flying 45 degrees to runway 21 (I think you call this base leg) and must have crashed just as he turned to line up for the runway. My home is about a mile from the crash site and 3 miles from runway 21.
What I saw was the aircraft dipping its wings, as if in salute. No doubt, this was the pilot trying to keep the aircraft in level flight. The sound from the aircraft engines was as if it was low on power, not a lot of nuts and bolts rattling as some people have said.
It also looked as if the pilot was trying to land on the football field near the crash site. Unfortunately the field was in use by local school children at the time. Some of the children were away from school today (Monday) due to the shock of seeing the crash.
As for the fire attendance, I understand from local people. Fire services from Orpington and Bromley were called out. Biggin Hill airport fire services also attended (yellow fire truck in BBC video). Search and rescue helicopters ZH-544 from the RAF and G-BIMU Coastguard where also in attendance (obtained from photographs taken by myself).
No doubt this crash will raise the question of a main hospital being on the approach to runway 21 which is located also about 400 yards from the crash site. Pressure will once again be brought on Biggin Hill to be restricted to the type of aircraft using the airport.
May those who were lost in the crash, rest in peace. We owe a lot to the skill of the crew.
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Firstly, my condolences to the families of all involved. May their loved ones rest in peace.
I have to say that, for the first time in many years, I had to switch off the Sky and BBC coverage of this appalling incident. So much unbelievably bad reporting, it was truly sickening. I've seen some bad coverage in the past, but this took the biscuit.
Five people lost their lives in this crash! Bearly a mention!
Mr and Mrs whoever lost their house. Sad ... but more than likely insured. Get a new one!
Local M.P came on ... usual hospital, school, playing field etc ... shouldn't be aircraft flying over blah blah blah. Get a life!
'Pilot was a hero for avoiding hospital, and playing fields'. Now, i'll admit, i'm not a pilot, but I have been aircrew in the past. I'm sure the pilots only objective was to get back to 21 at Biggin and i'll put money on it that he wouldn't have even known the hospital was there.
As for those 'experts' on the News, they should be ashamed of themselves. They should have the balls to say 'I'm sorry, i don't know the answer to that question' instead of making up wild theories and statements with no basis in fact. One was asked by the reporter on Sky, how high the aircraft would be two miles out from the runway and stated 7000 feet!! What IS the climb rate of a Citation, as good as a fighter jet obviously! ... come on now ... make an effort!
What it all boils down to is this - rolling news programmes have to fill for time. They have journos who know sod all, questioning Mr and Mrs Chav and sonny chav who know less than sod all, often by telephone from 'their home which was almost hit by the crashing plane'. It's a sad indictment on news 'services' today ... and frankly should be banned from our lives, long before any flight paths over residential areas. Maybe we should just close all the inland airports and build new ones at the coast, so that aircraft only approach and depart over the sea!!
I wonder how long that idea will take to come up on Sky????
Watch this space!
I have to say that, for the first time in many years, I had to switch off the Sky and BBC coverage of this appalling incident. So much unbelievably bad reporting, it was truly sickening. I've seen some bad coverage in the past, but this took the biscuit.
Five people lost their lives in this crash! Bearly a mention!
Mr and Mrs whoever lost their house. Sad ... but more than likely insured. Get a new one!
Local M.P came on ... usual hospital, school, playing field etc ... shouldn't be aircraft flying over blah blah blah. Get a life!
'Pilot was a hero for avoiding hospital, and playing fields'. Now, i'll admit, i'm not a pilot, but I have been aircrew in the past. I'm sure the pilots only objective was to get back to 21 at Biggin and i'll put money on it that he wouldn't have even known the hospital was there.
As for those 'experts' on the News, they should be ashamed of themselves. They should have the balls to say 'I'm sorry, i don't know the answer to that question' instead of making up wild theories and statements with no basis in fact. One was asked by the reporter on Sky, how high the aircraft would be two miles out from the runway and stated 7000 feet!! What IS the climb rate of a Citation, as good as a fighter jet obviously! ... come on now ... make an effort!
What it all boils down to is this - rolling news programmes have to fill for time. They have journos who know sod all, questioning Mr and Mrs Chav and sonny chav who know less than sod all, often by telephone from 'their home which was almost hit by the crashing plane'. It's a sad indictment on news 'services' today ... and frankly should be banned from our lives, long before any flight paths over residential areas. Maybe we should just close all the inland airports and build new ones at the coast, so that aircraft only approach and depart over the sea!!
I wonder how long that idea will take to come up on Sky????
Watch this space!
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I had flown an hour earlier and 21 was in use; 21 is the preferred runway; I would assume a 21 departure right turn all the way back to the overhead then set course for DET, followed at some point with the problem leading to a wide left turn back for 21.
Only assumption but based on normal ops at Biggin and my experience a little earlier.
Only assumption but based on normal ops at Biggin and my experience a little earlier.
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options when faced with a dead stick
sad for all, I knew MR many years ago, but sat here with the usual 20/20, why not attempt a return to 03, it would have saved a lot of time, I think eyeinthesky mentioned this as background, but was it an option? real emers are a little bit different to those in the sim. rip and condolences to the families
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#171,
The "off" switch is your choice with rolling news programmes.
More on David Leslie and Richard Lloyd:
http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews...cca82207507dd0
The "off" switch is your choice with rolling news programmes.
More on David Leslie and Richard Lloyd:
http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews...cca82207507dd0
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verticalmach
I have just spent the last hour or so going through the posts for this thread.
1) Westlake- I don't know in what capacity you have attended "other fires" but from my seven years as a full timer with the fire service you can rest assured that the officers at the scene did not go blasting water around willy nilly without regard for the evidence or structual integrity of buildings. Which, on reading your post, seems to be what you were inferring.
The need to preserve evidence is crucial but this has to be weighed against the need to preserve life and minimise further damage. Fire fighters are not magicians. To do the job they need to do with the mediums they have at thier disposal sometimes water damage to evidence/crash parts, sadly, is inevitable.
2) As a biz-jet jock myself it pains me to hear the dross that comes out of the mouths of people I would normally consider educated. The sensationalism circulated by the media is a part of our lives that we unfortunately have to live with. It never fails to amaze me what people are prepared to say for their five mins of fame. I take comfort from the fact that the majority (I believe) listening to the garbage coming out of the TV treat it with the contempt it deserves.
3) FDR/CVR- I have been doing this job coming up 10yrs and it is a shame that the above is not mandatory, I don't care if it is a "PRIVATE FLIGHT". The above should be fitted. I don't think the end result would have been any different, it would not have saved them, but at least there would be hard physical evidence.
4) airports/houses- As loads of you have mentioned. Why buy a house next to an airport if you think you are going to be a statistic. In fact I have a better idea, just don't get out of bed in the morning. Oooops, sorry don't do that. An aircraft might crash on you. Jeeeeesssuuss............. give me strength.
My thoughts are with the crew and their families. All the best to all you PP posters and safe flying.
1) Westlake- I don't know in what capacity you have attended "other fires" but from my seven years as a full timer with the fire service you can rest assured that the officers at the scene did not go blasting water around willy nilly without regard for the evidence or structual integrity of buildings. Which, on reading your post, seems to be what you were inferring.
The need to preserve evidence is crucial but this has to be weighed against the need to preserve life and minimise further damage. Fire fighters are not magicians. To do the job they need to do with the mediums they have at thier disposal sometimes water damage to evidence/crash parts, sadly, is inevitable.2) As a biz-jet jock myself it pains me to hear the dross that comes out of the mouths of people I would normally consider educated. The sensationalism circulated by the media is a part of our lives that we unfortunately have to live with. It never fails to amaze me what people are prepared to say for their five mins of fame. I take comfort from the fact that the majority (I believe) listening to the garbage coming out of the TV treat it with the contempt it deserves.
3) FDR/CVR- I have been doing this job coming up 10yrs and it is a shame that the above is not mandatory, I don't care if it is a "PRIVATE FLIGHT". The above should be fitted. I don't think the end result would have been any different, it would not have saved them, but at least there would be hard physical evidence.
4) airports/houses- As loads of you have mentioned. Why buy a house next to an airport if you think you are going to be a statistic. In fact I have a better idea, just don't get out of bed in the morning. Oooops, sorry don't do that. An aircraft might crash on you. Jeeeeesssuuss.............
give me strength.My thoughts are with the crew and their families. All the best to all you PP posters and safe flying.
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Questionable quote from Sky News
Quote:
Steven and Peter Hale told reporters their mother Pat is "bearing up very well" and her husband, Ed Harmond, is on his way back from a trip abroad.
This is reference to the damage to her house. Am glad the old girl is bearing up well. End of the day she will be insured and the hubby decided that it was better to finish up his golf holiday and then return home. I really hope the family, friends and beloved of the tragically killed dont see the terrible heartbreak of this couple. I am not devaluing major damage to your house for one moment but have a heart, material posessions can be replaced, figureheads of households, fathers to children, husbands to wives and in some cases sons can never be replaced.
I did not want to get drawn in to this thread but the callous and frankly appalling reporting shoved down my throat for the last 36 hours has been too much now.
My heart and condolences goes out to all concerned and those 2 guys in LH & RH seat are held in the highest of esteem for their actions surely saved the lives of many others and showed what true professionals are made of, not some idiotic eye witnesses looking for their five minutes of limelight. RIP
Steven and Peter Hale told reporters their mother Pat is "bearing up very well" and her husband, Ed Harmond, is on his way back from a trip abroad.
This is reference to the damage to her house. Am glad the old girl is bearing up well. End of the day she will be insured and the hubby decided that it was better to finish up his golf holiday and then return home. I really hope the family, friends and beloved of the tragically killed dont see the terrible heartbreak of this couple. I am not devaluing major damage to your house for one moment but have a heart, material posessions can be replaced, figureheads of households, fathers to children, husbands to wives and in some cases sons can never be replaced.
I did not want to get drawn in to this thread but the callous and frankly appalling reporting shoved down my throat for the last 36 hours has been too much now.
My heart and condolences goes out to all concerned and those 2 guys in LH & RH seat are held in the highest of esteem for their actions surely saved the lives of many others and showed what true professionals are made of, not some idiotic eye witnesses looking for their five minutes of limelight. RIP
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verticalmach
Hi,
As in all things in life, cost is the driver. A Citation 501 would not be worth the millions that some people believe it would. To purchase and fit the below mentioned equipment would represent an unrealistic percentage of the hull value and this is in part caused by outrageously expensive certification charges levied by the state aviation organisations that primarily have the control of safety regulations. This applies in the manufacture and return to service phases. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, its just too expensive for the small operators.
"3) FDR/CVR- I have been doing this job coming up 10yrs and it is a shame that the above is not mandatory, I don't care if it is a "PRIVATE FLIGHT". The above should be fitted. I don't think the end result would have been any different, it would not have saved them, but at least there would be hard physical evidence."
Hi,
As in all things in life, cost is the driver. A Citation 501 would not be worth the millions that some people believe it would. To purchase and fit the below mentioned equipment would represent an unrealistic percentage of the hull value and this is in part caused by outrageously expensive certification charges levied by the state aviation organisations that primarily have the control of safety regulations. This applies in the manufacture and return to service phases. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, its just too expensive for the small operators.
"3) FDR/CVR- I have been doing this job coming up 10yrs and it is a shame that the above is not mandatory, I don't care if it is a "PRIVATE FLIGHT". The above should be fitted. I don't think the end result would have been any different, it would not have saved them, but at least there would be hard physical evidence."
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sat here with the usual 20/20, why not attempt a return to 03, it would have saved a lot of time, I think eyeinthesky mentioned this as background, but was it an option? real emers are a little bit different to those in the sim. rip and condolences to the families
Having said that, if, as I suspect, they took a decision a mile or two East of BIG, heading East at 2400' QNH, 1800' AGL, it would not have made a huge difference which way they turned, but the turn onto 210 is actually less than onto 030 and 21 was more "obvious" as it has an ILS and all the lighting, and was the active runway.
I would have turned left under all the circs.
Last edited by Timothy; 1st Apr 2008 at 15:56.
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Cvr/fdr
Concur on fact that although CVR/FDR is always desirable, on an aircraft of this age, worth around £400,000 or so, this would be prohibitively expensive, especially the FDR. One wouldn’t expect to fit them on a new piston single or twin of a similar value
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Fdr/cvr
To purchase and fit the below mentioned equipment would represent an unrealistic percentage of the hull value and this is in part caused by outrageously expensive certification charges levied by the state aviation organisations that primarily have the control of safety regulations
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EASA certainly is. One wonders if they get percentage from what they take for fees & stuff. Money is valuable to one, if it is his/hers, throwing money out of the window that does not belong to you is easy - and thats what EASA etc. are really good at.
However I´m pretty positive that the AAIB will have enough evidence to get a clue on what happened why.
BTW, we operate privately and we have CVR/DFDR. But on such an old dog?
However I´m pretty positive that the AAIB will have enough evidence to get a clue on what happened why.
BTW, we operate privately and we have CVR/DFDR. But on such an old dog?
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People have mentioned about the wisdom of buying/building houses near airports in this thread. People have also mentioned about the proximity of a school and hospital to Biggin. Presumably both of these were also built after WW1 or whenever it was that biggin opened?
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Government to ban birds at airports!
IF and it is a BIG IF it turns out that the cause of the crash was due to bird strike in both engines (rare but possible) can you image the above headline from another so called BBC (read all news media) expert. Being April 1st perhaps we should start a rumour after all the BBC are trying to convince us that Pengiuns (sic) can fly!!
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They must have been told light aircraft has crashed and maybe never thought it was a jet. To my knowledge a Citation uses A1 Jet Fuel and not LPG. Considering it's surrounding's it could have been much worse.
Have you not considered what may be under and around the accident site? The garage containing several patio heater gas cylinders, the various paints and solvents stored in garages, the gas supply to the affected house etc etc? LPG cylinders go BANG in a big way, and Jet A1 (not A1 Jet) is a pussycat in comparison.. A Fire officer will need to weigh up the risks before comitting men to the scene. It would have been fairly obvious that there was no immediate threat to life, so the next stage would have been to secure the accident scene, no matter how long it takes....
Think before you write.....
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"People have mentioned about the wisdom of buying/building houses near airports in this thread. People have also mentioned about the proximity of a school and hospital to Biggin. Presumably both of these were also built after WW1 or whenever it was that biggin opened?"
"We were here first" is not enshrined as a principle of settling such things, though. If having an airport nearby was shown to be dangerous to nearby houses (of course it isn't) then moving the airport or changing the way it operates would be the less disruptive option. The same goes for chemical plants and other such things. When you do a risk assessment you don't take into account when the various parties arrived relative to the risk.
In no rational world is a nearby airport a significant threat against the background danger level we all experience just by being alive. Win the argument that way. "These people chose to be near the risk" won't... fly.
"We were here first" is not enshrined as a principle of settling such things, though. If having an airport nearby was shown to be dangerous to nearby houses (of course it isn't) then moving the airport or changing the way it operates would be the less disruptive option. The same goes for chemical plants and other such things. When you do a risk assessment you don't take into account when the various parties arrived relative to the risk.
In no rational world is a nearby airport a significant threat against the background danger level we all experience just by being alive. Win the argument that way. "These people chose to be near the risk" won't... fly.
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I don't think so:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/about_us/...cfm?view=print&
I am not doubting that they are very capable, but there are contributors on here with very type specific knowledge.
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/about_us/...cfm?view=print&
I am not doubting that they are very capable, but there are contributors on here with very type specific knowledge.
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I'm not sure my timing is appropriate, but is anyone else wondering about the whole public transport / AOC question over this one, I've not seen anywhere if the passengers were the owners of the airframe?
Phil
Phil