small jet down in London
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Hi I have read these threads and avoided posting as not only have I flown the aircraft that crashed but flew with the Pilot who was killed.
The pilot was a cool character who came to flying after pressure deep diving for the oil companies. He had a lot of experience on type, was single pilot rated.
The aircraft before it was sold was always well maintained and when I flew her she flew like a dream.
I hope the accident investigators find a cause other than an engine failure as that alone should not bring a citation down.
My concern is that there isnt enough left of the wreckage to 100% determine a cause and only the pilots might know when the plot was lost.
Guesswork here isnt going to add anything as we all try to imagine scenarios where such a situation may occur.
Yes we hope some reason is found because otherwise its a case of there for the grace of god go I and we all need the reasons avoidable or unavoidable.
Pace
The pilot was a cool character who came to flying after pressure deep diving for the oil companies. He had a lot of experience on type, was single pilot rated.
The aircraft before it was sold was always well maintained and when I flew her she flew like a dream.
I hope the accident investigators find a cause other than an engine failure as that alone should not bring a citation down.
My concern is that there isnt enough left of the wreckage to 100% determine a cause and only the pilots might know when the plot was lost.
Guesswork here isnt going to add anything as we all try to imagine scenarios where such a situation may occur.
Yes we hope some reason is found because otherwise its a case of there for the grace of god go I and we all need the reasons avoidable or unavoidable.
Pace
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pilotbear:
Why people should feel it necessary to criticise someone else's reasoning is beyond me, Oh wait, we are on pprune! any excuse for loud mouth 'holier than thou' thought police to get their word in and dictate the way things should be done.
Why people should feel it necessary to criticise someone else's reasoning is beyond me, Oh wait, we are on pprune! any excuse for loud mouth 'holier than thou' thought police to get their word in and dictate the way things should be done.
but...
pilotbear:
Especially the cowardly anonymous ones
Especially the cowardly anonymous ones
...relax, I'm joking! would you want everybody to leave his phonenumber?
But also I know what you're coming from, people feel brave when their name isn't public.
pace:
My concern is that there isnt enough left of the wreckage to 100% determine a cause and only the pilots might know when the plot was lost.
My concern is that there isnt enough left of the wreckage to 100% determine a cause and only the pilots might know when the plot was lost.
Guesswork here isnt going to add anything as we all try to imagine scenarios where such a situation may occur.
So because there's nothing left, we all should shut up, mind our own business and (besides condolences) never discuss what might have led to the accident?
People who have known a person involved might not like the outcome or the discussion itself, which is understandeable, but maybe "they" should not take a personal offense (I stress: from a professional discussion).
Only my two cents
(and unfortunately nothing that has really to do with the topic)
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>If its valid and professional "guesswork" I don't see a problem with it!?
So because there's nothing left, we all should shut up, mind our own business and (besides condolences) never discuss what might have led to the accident?
People who have known a person involved might not like the outcome or the discussion itself, which is understandeable, but maybe "they" should not take a personal offense (I stress: from a professional discussion).<
Phil
The problem with guesswork is that not only are there much greater implications ie insurance claims but there is the reputation of the pilot at stake who is no longer here to defend himself.
There have been a number of fatal crashes where the outcome of why has been inconclusive.
The investigators may only have radio transmissions and radar traces to go on and saying that the pilot may have done this or that without hard evidence has broader implications.
As pilots we need to know so that we can avoid a recurrence. I did not know Mike as a close friend but had flown with him and had flown the aircraft myself at a later date.
Hence it comes closer to home for me than most in this forum. I only hope the conclusion is some act of God like birds through both engines.
But I have a horrible feeling that this will be one of those inconclusive investigations which leaves us all with vivid imaginations as to what may have gone wrong.
Pace
So because there's nothing left, we all should shut up, mind our own business and (besides condolences) never discuss what might have led to the accident?
People who have known a person involved might not like the outcome or the discussion itself, which is understandeable, but maybe "they" should not take a personal offense (I stress: from a professional discussion).<
Phil
The problem with guesswork is that not only are there much greater implications ie insurance claims but there is the reputation of the pilot at stake who is no longer here to defend himself.
There have been a number of fatal crashes where the outcome of why has been inconclusive.
The investigators may only have radio transmissions and radar traces to go on and saying that the pilot may have done this or that without hard evidence has broader implications.
As pilots we need to know so that we can avoid a recurrence. I did not know Mike as a close friend but had flown with him and had flown the aircraft myself at a later date.
Hence it comes closer to home for me than most in this forum. I only hope the conclusion is some act of God like birds through both engines.
But I have a horrible feeling that this will be one of those inconclusive investigations which leaves us all with vivid imaginations as to what may have gone wrong.
Pace
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The problem with guesswork is that not only are there much greater implications ie insurance claims but there is the reputation of the pilot at stake who is no longer here to defend himself
yeah sure, insurance won´t pay because user his dudeness at pprune.org said it might have been a pilot error. Give me a break, man...
And if he´d survived it, it would be different because 'he could defense himself' ??? - What if he would not bother to look at pprune?
Dude, you can´t hide ANYTHING in Aviation any more, like it or not. Spotters, internet flight paln tracking etcetc.
So, if WE, all pilots, would stop speculating, there would be still at least hundreds of other doing that.
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Pace:
I think I would probably argue the same way myself if it would come "this close to home" like you said (like that term).
However, I think the benefit outway's the issues a (naturally) small affected minority has with questioning the pilots actions. Again, I do not intend to badmouth anybody, but if there is a chance he in fact did something horribly wrong (and that could even have been commonly thought in the SOP), then discussing it could rise the awareness of other pilots flying the same type (like me!).
Please don't take offense by me calling you a minority.
You might talked in the past with others about accidents too, when you or your friends were not involved? Did you honestly care at that point who's feelings might have been hurt? I know a public forum is a different story, but believe me, I do not intend to destroy somebody's reputation (not even postmortem) but we are not fail-safe and we will never be.
All I want to do is discuss the options openly without being punished for even considering that human factors might be involved.
Please understand my point of view...
I tend to concur with "his dudeness" that just because somebody mentioned it might have been p*** e****, the reputation of the pilot will not be hurt.
I think I would probably argue the same way myself if it would come "this close to home" like you said (like that term).
However, I think the benefit outway's the issues a (naturally) small affected minority has with questioning the pilots actions. Again, I do not intend to badmouth anybody, but if there is a chance he in fact did something horribly wrong (and that could even have been commonly thought in the SOP), then discussing it could rise the awareness of other pilots flying the same type (like me!).
Please don't take offense by me calling you a minority.
You might talked in the past with others about accidents too, when you or your friends were not involved? Did you honestly care at that point who's feelings might have been hurt? I know a public forum is a different story, but believe me, I do not intend to destroy somebody's reputation (not even postmortem) but we are not fail-safe and we will never be.
All I want to do is discuss the options openly without being punished for even considering that human factors might be involved.
Please understand my point of view...
I tend to concur with "his dudeness" that just because somebody mentioned it might have been p*** e****, the reputation of the pilot will not be hurt.
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Phil
In all likelyhood it probably was P**** E**** most accidents are. I know the aircraft was very well maintained until its sale last october so certainly no bag of nails. That doesnt preclude some failure because even well maintained aircraft fail.
A citation doesnt go down on a simple one engine out so there has to be some other factor mechanical or human which added to this.
The important thing is that whatever the cause the findings are conclusive so that we other pilots can avoid a simular situation.
pace
In all likelyhood it probably was P**** E**** most accidents are. I know the aircraft was very well maintained until its sale last october so certainly no bag of nails. That doesnt preclude some failure because even well maintained aircraft fail.
A citation doesnt go down on a simple one engine out so there has to be some other factor mechanical or human which added to this.
The important thing is that whatever the cause the findings are conclusive so that we other pilots can avoid a simular situation.
pace
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Thanks Pace for not getting it the wrong way! 
"A citation doesnt go down on a simple one engine out"
...and since that's exactly my understanding I'd like to discuss something like that with my fellow busdrivers without getting chastised!
Everything said, whoever wants to get back on topic...
"A citation doesnt go down on a simple one engine out"
...and since that's exactly my understanding I'd like to discuss something like that with my fellow busdrivers without getting chastised!
Everything said, whoever wants to get back on topic...
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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I am not rated on the cessna types, so could someone give me an answer on a couple of things, how much of a margin were they likely to have on mtom structural/ MTOM performance limits for the flight they had planned, and how awkward/unforgiving is the cessna if you are up near the performance limits in the event of a single engine failure, I know some aircraft can be very unforgiving in this regime.
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Hi well put it this way on a recurrent test I have gone around in the flare with full flap and gear down at fairly light weight.
In such a situation and low speed there is a fair amount of yaw but that diminishes as the aircraft is cleaned up and speed builds.
At around 140 kts the aircraft is perfectly manageable in the climb.
In level flight with the aircraft clean there is little yaw.
A climb rate of 900 fpm is not difficult on one engine as long as temps and weight are ok.
That is why I say there has to be some other factor involved human or mechanical.
The citation 500 is not a seneca or light twin in that respect struggling to get a couple of hundred feet for minute.
pace
In such a situation and low speed there is a fair amount of yaw but that diminishes as the aircraft is cleaned up and speed builds.
At around 140 kts the aircraft is perfectly manageable in the climb.
In level flight with the aircraft clean there is little yaw.
A climb rate of 900 fpm is not difficult on one engine as long as temps and weight are ok.
That is why I say there has to be some other factor involved human or mechanical.
The citation 500 is not a seneca or light twin in that respect struggling to get a couple of hundred feet for minute.
pace
Last edited by Pace; 17th Apr 2008 at 22:31.
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I heard today that there is an article in one of the sunday papers today that the owner of the plane had been arrested over the alleged illegal charter of the ill fated flight.. Is this true?
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There is a small article on Kent Online about this http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kol08/ar...ticle_id=40532
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AAIB Special Bulletin issued: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...00__vp_bge.cfm
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flightglobal update;
Flightglobal update in response to the previous threads contents from AAIB; http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...at-biggin.html
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This is a very upsetting report as it maybe one of those accidents which has no clear reason.
Most of the aircraft was detroyed so not a lot to go on.
Witnesses who contradict each other. ie some said the gear was up, some down. Some said the engines were running at high power some said the engines were not running.
Now with what they do have left of the engines No double bird strike, no major engine failure.
So what would cause a citation which is a doddle to fly engine out to crash when in level flight and not just after takeoff.
For those of us who Fly citations and especially a 500 as I do I know that I would really like to know a conclusive reason especially as both pilots were experienced and competant.
pace
Most of the aircraft was detroyed so not a lot to go on.
Witnesses who contradict each other. ie some said the gear was up, some down. Some said the engines were running at high power some said the engines were not running.
Now with what they do have left of the engines No double bird strike, no major engine failure.
So what would cause a citation which is a doddle to fly engine out to crash when in level flight and not just after takeoff.
For those of us who Fly citations and especially a 500 as I do I know that I would really like to know a conclusive reason especially as both pilots were experienced and competant.
pace
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As someone that saw the plane, prior to the crash I can inform you that I could hear it coming towards my house. As a result I looked upwards to see the type as it was quite loud, but not sounding as if anything was wrong.
To my surprise the plane was almost at rooftop height to the left of my house (I am 300 ASL) passing along the line of Ashbourne Rise (BR6 9PZ) and then over playing fields to the crash site.
I only got a quick glimpse of the plane, due to a tree in the way. The thrust plume from the engines was smaller than I expected and the pilot was trying to keep the plane level, the wings were dipping up and down as if in salute.
If the tree had not interrupted my view of the plane, I could have probably seen it all the way to the crash site about a mile away and therefore give more information than I can.
One jet, a light plane and a helicopter crashing in the local area in the past three years or so, is making people a little jumpy around here. Personally I think that I have more chance of a bad car crash than being hit by a plane and yes I will be at the air display in June.
What still gives me a cold shudder from some 17 years ago, is seeing a 747 pull up over the tail of what looked like a DC9 (rear engine job). The 747 was in the Biggin stack and I think the DC9 was out of Heathrow, I have never told the wife.
To my surprise the plane was almost at rooftop height to the left of my house (I am 300 ASL) passing along the line of Ashbourne Rise (BR6 9PZ) and then over playing fields to the crash site.
I only got a quick glimpse of the plane, due to a tree in the way. The thrust plume from the engines was smaller than I expected and the pilot was trying to keep the plane level, the wings were dipping up and down as if in salute.
If the tree had not interrupted my view of the plane, I could have probably seen it all the way to the crash site about a mile away and therefore give more information than I can.
One jet, a light plane and a helicopter crashing in the local area in the past three years or so, is making people a little jumpy around here. Personally I think that I have more chance of a bad car crash than being hit by a plane and yes I will be at the air display in June.
What still gives me a cold shudder from some 17 years ago, is seeing a 747 pull up over the tail of what looked like a DC9 (rear engine job). The 747 was in the Biggin stack and I think the DC9 was out of Heathrow, I have never told the wife.