Duty hours? weight and balance? you're avin a larf!
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Duty hours? weight and balance? you're avin a larf!
My company frequently ask (expect!) me to.........................
Fiddle duty hours
Fly overweight
leave out defects in the tech log
give up days off
work bank hols with no substitute
take off when the destination forecast is well below minima
...............the list goes on..............
If I complain then I am reminded of the fact that 'there are plenty of pilots out willing to take your job' !
Am I the only one?
Am I just being too naieve?
MM
Fiddle duty hours
Fly overweight
leave out defects in the tech log
give up days off
work bank hols with no substitute
take off when the destination forecast is well below minima
...............the list goes on..............
If I complain then I am reminded of the fact that 'there are plenty of pilots out willing to take your job' !
Am I the only one?
Am I just being too naieve?
MM
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welcome to the real world
I can not vouch for the airlines, but 90% of all corportate and charter fligths are illegal in one way or another.
The tech log is only filled in on delivery to mtce.
Overweight, is a regular situation.
Duty times are normally completed after the days work, even mult sectors, as is the journey log, (seperate).
Take off, with dest minina low......well it can only get better.
The tech log is only filled in on delivery to mtce.
Overweight, is a regular situation.
Duty times are normally completed after the days work, even mult sectors, as is the journey log, (seperate).
Take off, with dest minina low......well it can only get better.
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martiniman
I strongly disagree with bumzrushs' casual acceptance of such practices but I'm not at all surprised.
Just proves all those 'important' people think they are in safe hands paying all that money for a bizjet when in reality it is often as GASH as GASH can be!
From personal experience I can assure you that although some of the things you mention are not unheard of, they are not accepted as 'the norm' in the better airlines.
Don't forget that although you may be legal you won't be a 'real' pilot in many corporate guys opinion.
Get another job or just say no - it's your licence!
I strongly disagree with bumzrushs' casual acceptance of such practices but I'm not at all surprised.
Just proves all those 'important' people think they are in safe hands paying all that money for a bizjet when in reality it is often as GASH as GASH can be!
From personal experience I can assure you that although some of the things you mention are not unheard of, they are not accepted as 'the norm' in the better airlines.
Don't forget that although you may be legal you won't be a 'real' pilot in many corporate guys opinion.
Get another job or just say no - it's your licence!
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You're the pilot and it's your decision!
there's is no point in dieing over the job!
If you say no, and they say they are gonna get a new pilot just make sure that that pilot knows the score, and you'll probably find the job is still yours.
May be an optimistic view from and un-employed pilot but don't forget that you are endangering others around you aswell, not just you and your plane.
Be strong mate!!
Good luck.
there's is no point in dieing over the job!
If you say no, and they say they are gonna get a new pilot just make sure that that pilot knows the score, and you'll probably find the job is still yours.
May be an optimistic view from and un-employed pilot but don't forget that you are endangering others around you aswell, not just you and your plane.
Be strong mate!!
Good luck.
MiM
There are everal issues in your post, some are more valid than others. Most companies play it straight.
We work very stricktly to duty hours and do not take jobs which can not be done legally. However I do expect the team to log their hours accurately and if they hang around using the office for personal admin etc they must log off duty first.
It is important to do accurate load sheets. If you dont one day you will find out why the hard way.
As regards to days off, this depends on your contract. You have to help the company make the business work. I expect the chaps to fly on what were scheduled days off when we need to. No one can afford to turn away the customers. We just make sure they stay within the legal number of days off for FTL. If you are going to complain about rosta changes in the corporate world you are in the wrong job.
Crews have to take off with the destinations out of limits sometimes or the job will not get done. The Captain must make a sensible decision based on the forecast, trend, diversions etc.
You must have a stake in makings things work while staying legal and safe. If the business does not work then you will be out of a job anyway.
There are everal issues in your post, some are more valid than others. Most companies play it straight.
We work very stricktly to duty hours and do not take jobs which can not be done legally. However I do expect the team to log their hours accurately and if they hang around using the office for personal admin etc they must log off duty first.
It is important to do accurate load sheets. If you dont one day you will find out why the hard way.
As regards to days off, this depends on your contract. You have to help the company make the business work. I expect the chaps to fly on what were scheduled days off when we need to. No one can afford to turn away the customers. We just make sure they stay within the legal number of days off for FTL. If you are going to complain about rosta changes in the corporate world you are in the wrong job.
Crews have to take off with the destinations out of limits sometimes or the job will not get done. The Captain must make a sensible decision based on the forecast, trend, diversions etc.
You must have a stake in makings things work while staying legal and safe. If the business does not work then you will be out of a job anyway.
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Telling it as it is
You might not like it, I do not like it, but it happens.
MM is talking about management, and perhaps charter.
I would argue that an accurate load sheet is vital to the paper work chain, but after a while, becomes rather repetitive.
I have seen an entire journey log been recreated to eliminate "errors".
Stan: As mentioned above I have been in corporate and executive charter all my life....long and distinguished, and only ONE company (a charter) actually complied with 99.9% of all CAA AOC requirements.
The one that often escaped was the leaving of a copy of the load sheet with a competent person on the ground. There are stories of these being removed from the port tail surface upon completion of the post flight inspection. Never on my watch you understand.
Whenever deviation from the AOC were reported to the CAA they response was always ..........
MM is talking about management, and perhaps charter.
I would argue that an accurate load sheet is vital to the paper work chain, but after a while, becomes rather repetitive.
I have seen an entire journey log been recreated to eliminate "errors".
Stan: As mentioned above I have been in corporate and executive charter all my life....long and distinguished, and only ONE company (a charter) actually complied with 99.9% of all CAA AOC requirements.
The one that often escaped was the leaving of a copy of the load sheet with a competent person on the ground. There are stories of these being removed from the port tail surface upon completion of the post flight inspection. Never on my watch you understand.
Whenever deviation from the AOC were reported to the CAA they response was always ..........
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A few diverse replies.............thank you.
You will see from my post that I am a 'recent' user. Well under the name 'martiniman' yes, but I have been on PPRUNE under other names since 1998.
The problem of course is that I can not be too specific about details for the fear of being traced by my company.
I am all for the company being successful and staying in business (no company..........no job!) but the way that we (me and the other pilots) are being treated beggars belief.
My final sanction of course will be to spill the beans bigtime to the CAA if or when I do get the ultimate threat of being sacked.
It is true to say that I could leave, but what also worries me is that if I did get another job elsewhere it is likely to be 'same sh*t, different bucket'!
I believe that jobs are still as rare as hens teeth, and the type that I fly are only operated by a (very) small number of operators.
This is not a satisfactory situation, I am just curious to know if there are other pilots out there feeling the same.
Oh well, must go, I have to 'lose' 200 kg's to make the next flight 'legal'
MM
You will see from my post that I am a 'recent' user. Well under the name 'martiniman' yes, but I have been on PPRUNE under other names since 1998.
The problem of course is that I can not be too specific about details for the fear of being traced by my company.
I am all for the company being successful and staying in business (no company..........no job!) but the way that we (me and the other pilots) are being treated beggars belief.
My final sanction of course will be to spill the beans bigtime to the CAA if or when I do get the ultimate threat of being sacked.
It is true to say that I could leave, but what also worries me is that if I did get another job elsewhere it is likely to be 'same sh*t, different bucket'!
I believe that jobs are still as rare as hens teeth, and the type that I fly are only operated by a (very) small number of operators.
This is not a satisfactory situation, I am just curious to know if there are other pilots out there feeling the same.
Oh well, must go, I have to 'lose' 200 kg's to make the next flight 'legal'
MM
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Bumz,
"90% of all corporate and charter is illegal".
Utter balls. I've been in corporate for the last 15 years and I agree that there is some bending of rules occasionally but never 90% of the time................
Where I'm now working we are suffering more rules, regulation and paperwork than most airlines AND we're on an offshore registry!!!!!!!! We cannot move without checking compliance with the rules as any deviation is quickly discovered and letters soon follow. The days of being able to do what you like in corporate are over.
"90% of all corporate and charter is illegal".
Utter balls. I've been in corporate for the last 15 years and I agree that there is some bending of rules occasionally but never 90% of the time................
Where I'm now working we are suffering more rules, regulation and paperwork than most airlines AND we're on an offshore registry!!!!!!!! We cannot move without checking compliance with the rules as any deviation is quickly discovered and letters soon follow. The days of being able to do what you like in corporate are over.
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I have to agree with MM. I have only ever worked in GA but see the 'rules' bent constantly. Can't see me still having a job if every single flight I did was 100% legit so I guess for now, at least, its back to work and carry on fiddeling!!!!
Last edited by Blu2; 17th Jun 2004 at 20:50.
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Christopher Columbus
1451 Born in Genoa, the son of a wool merchant and weaver.
1476 Swims ashore when his ship is sunk in a battle off Portugal.
1476 Joins his brother Bartholomew, a cartographer, in Lisbon.
Amazing how some people arrive in Lisbon.............
and even more amazing how some people leave..........
1476 Swims ashore when his ship is sunk in a battle off Portugal.
1476 Joins his brother Bartholomew, a cartographer, in Lisbon.
Amazing how some people arrive in Lisbon.............
and even more amazing how some people leave..........
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Keep your heads in the sand guys.
I repeat a vast mumber of all "corporate" flights are not operated in compliance with the JAA / FAA regulations. Many crews are not in compliance with FCL. Many aircraft are not in compliance with the M/MEL.
Perhaps I can put it another way. I last operated a fully legal, (IMHO), with a UK charter company on a PA31. over 5000 hrs ago.
Please don't tell me to phone the CAA/FAA/BBC.
A total waste of time.
Been there done that. even got the T shirt.
I know many of the "ppruners" on this thread, and they would all agree with me, we have flown together at various times....
Back to my sand pit.....
Perhaps I can put it another way. I last operated a fully legal, (IMHO), with a UK charter company on a PA31. over 5000 hrs ago.
Please don't tell me to phone the CAA/FAA/BBC.
A total waste of time.
Been there done that. even got the T shirt.
I know many of the "ppruners" on this thread, and they would all agree with me, we have flown together at various times....
Back to my sand pit.....
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I know that in Corporate there are real pressures to 'keep the show on the road'...weather / technical / knackered crew - none of these sufficient to stop the trip (I've arrived in my hotel too tired to fall asleep in the soup! - some years ago thankfully).
Things are changing - Pilots are having some success in utilising the M/MEL newly fitted to some aircraft, and we certainly plan our trips in accordance with FTL.
But, BR has a point - it's not all of us who can relax when the 'Man from The Ministry' shows up on the ramp.
BBC BR? Thought it was The Shopping Channel...
Sorry - an afterthought. Not sure that I've met anybody operating in/out of Moscow who has had much luck with saying 'nyet' to their Owner (talking pure corporate here).
Things are changing - Pilots are having some success in utilising the M/MEL newly fitted to some aircraft, and we certainly plan our trips in accordance with FTL.
But, BR has a point - it's not all of us who can relax when the 'Man from The Ministry' shows up on the ramp.
BBC BR? Thought it was The Shopping Channel...
Sorry - an afterthought. Not sure that I've met anybody operating in/out of Moscow who has had much luck with saying 'nyet' to their Owner (talking pure corporate here).
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Niet
I tried this once, we had been in aircraft on ground in VNO for 6 hours, and gave the pax an ultimatum, we either depart in 2 hrs, to comply with FTL, or return to hotel, and take our rest. Fully corporate. phoned chief pilot, whose response was " whats the problem " (english accent). When pax did arrive exactly on the dead line, they said "whats the problem" (russian business mand accent).
So 727, you are 101% correct. except it is Discovery wings...gives you strength......
Similar with Middle East. No names here either, but same situation.
Only another 10 years then I can retire......and clean the sand from my ears.....for good....
So 727, you are 101% correct. except it is Discovery wings...gives you strength......
Similar with Middle East. No names here either, but same situation.
Only another 10 years then I can retire......and clean the sand from my ears.....for good....
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I said 'nyet' to my Russian owner.....so he stopped paying the bills and I left pronto! I think they are still flying, but the Captains rotate through like a conveyor belt.
Many attempts by owners to manipulate the Corporate system stems from ignorance ( either real or feigned ) and I guess we have to try and educate them...if we can!
I've been in this world too for the last 20 years or so and it can certainly be easier to fall between the regulatory cracks if not vigilant and ( errrr ) insistant sometimes.
Many attempts by owners to manipulate the Corporate system stems from ignorance ( either real or feigned ) and I guess we have to try and educate them...if we can!
I've been in this world too for the last 20 years or so and it can certainly be easier to fall between the regulatory cracks if not vigilant and ( errrr ) insistant sometimes.
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westwind crash in panama was probably a result of out of balance and or fuel imbalance..... if u do the math on this you can see they were atleast a thousand pounds over weight and an aft cg that goes of the scale
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Kilroy, could you please back up your statement with a few facts please. As I have nearly 4,000 hours in Westwinds I really have a very hard time understanding how they could have had an C-G problem. The biggest C-G problem one faces in a Westwind is a forward C-G especially with only the crew on board and full fuel unless the aux. fuel tank installed and filled. If in fact that particular Westwind had that option, the removable aux. tank was only standard on the Westwind II. If my memory serves me correctly the aux. tank held a little over 100 US gallons, about 700 pounds in all.
Now if the aft baggage compartment (the smaller baggage compartment aft of the engines) were filled with gold ingots I guess you could have an aft C-G problem, however that seems unlikely. However the gold ingots would possibly explain why the aircraft was a 1000 pounds overweight. How many people were on board?
The Westwind II I flew we could carry 3 passengers with baggage with full fuel including the aux. tank. We were well
within C-G.
Thank you.
CP
Forgot to add that it has been about 15 years since I flew Westwinds so I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.
CP
Now if the aft baggage compartment (the smaller baggage compartment aft of the engines) were filled with gold ingots I guess you could have an aft C-G problem, however that seems unlikely. However the gold ingots would possibly explain why the aircraft was a 1000 pounds overweight. How many people were on board?
The Westwind II I flew we could carry 3 passengers with baggage with full fuel including the aux. tank. We were well
within C-G.
Thank you.
CP
Forgot to add that it has been about 15 years since I flew Westwinds so I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.
CP