Netjets claim to have the BEST pilots!!
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Just come across this post I copied from R & N. Tired Budjet pilots.
Dare I ask, would this apply at N**? No it couldn't I'm sure with so many safety officers etc. in place.
"In certain airlines the managed sickness systems that they have put in place ensure that individuals will not report sick - otherwise they are put on a watch list which can affect everything from their promotion to their continued employment.
Crews fly sick and fatigued to ensure that they do not trigger a call to the office to explain why they did not report for duty. At one interview for instance the individual was informed that if he had a problem with fatigue he probably was not the sort of person the company wished to employ, and they would lose confidence in his ability to fly as a pilot. He went back to work.
Management keep their heads in the sand on the issue in the hope that the smoking hole will not be on their watch, and rely on the subtle support of the investigators who would have great difficulty distinguishing fatigue from incompetence. You cannot measure 20 milligrams of fatigue.
Yes, it is illegal to fly when you are fatigued but until we can measure it management with their commercial pressures will ensure that we shall fly when unfit"
Dare I ask, would this apply at N**? No it couldn't I'm sure with so many safety officers etc. in place.
"In certain airlines the managed sickness systems that they have put in place ensure that individuals will not report sick - otherwise they are put on a watch list which can affect everything from their promotion to their continued employment.
Crews fly sick and fatigued to ensure that they do not trigger a call to the office to explain why they did not report for duty. At one interview for instance the individual was informed that if he had a problem with fatigue he probably was not the sort of person the company wished to employ, and they would lose confidence in his ability to fly as a pilot. He went back to work.
Management keep their heads in the sand on the issue in the hope that the smoking hole will not be on their watch, and rely on the subtle support of the investigators who would have great difficulty distinguishing fatigue from incompetence. You cannot measure 20 milligrams of fatigue.
Yes, it is illegal to fly when you are fatigued but until we can measure it management with their commercial pressures will ensure that we shall fly when unfit"
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caring- knife in the back..........
Good post, d-a.
I feel sure that the 'tell us all about your problems lad' type situation exists in many companies. The individual is encouraged to share worries and concerns by management. When concerns are voiced they are noted for future use. When the 'tally' of concerns/worries reaches a certain level, one is marked for being fired at the earliest opportunity. Personally I feel that listening to and reacting to the concerns could actually benefit companies rather than raise their hackles and stimulate their paranoias.
I feel the issue of FTL figures highly on many individuals' concerns list in this particular company, I believe there have been many firings when concerns are voiced. The caring- knife in the back culture is alive and well !
The bullying tactics used to contain genuine worries and keep them 'in-house' gives rise to the content of many of the responses in this thread. Certain contributors posting items which they know will be read by management.............especially when posted under their own names !
Whatever was the answer to that FTL question ? Did we ever get a straight answer ?
I feel sure that the 'tell us all about your problems lad' type situation exists in many companies. The individual is encouraged to share worries and concerns by management. When concerns are voiced they are noted for future use. When the 'tally' of concerns/worries reaches a certain level, one is marked for being fired at the earliest opportunity. Personally I feel that listening to and reacting to the concerns could actually benefit companies rather than raise their hackles and stimulate their paranoias.
I feel the issue of FTL figures highly on many individuals' concerns list in this particular company, I believe there have been many firings when concerns are voiced. The caring- knife in the back culture is alive and well !
The bullying tactics used to contain genuine worries and keep them 'in-house' gives rise to the content of many of the responses in this thread. Certain contributors posting items which they know will be read by management.............especially when posted under their own names !
Whatever was the answer to that FTL question ? Did we ever get a straight answer ?
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Still trying to work that one out. Still it appears that some steam was vented, not sure about BEST pilots as that is a pretty subjective quality, best as in what... drinking, talking or sex? Best bulsh*t artists, posers, or polers? Still when all is said and done it appears the thread has kept us all entertained so not entirely wasted effort.
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Happy New Year
lets hope that Jammers and Jenvey's forced retirement from this thread does not bring the discussion to an end.
They've only been sinbinned for two weeks. They'll soon be able to enter the discussion again. 4HP
To revitalise things, I wondered if things had changed at NJE over the past years.
For instance, when I voiced my concerns over operating outside the MEL with the Fleet Manager, I was told " Thats OK. We've been operating these airplanes for some time now and we know what we can get away with."
A subsequent gagging order means I am unsure how much detail I can go into. Just interested if that sort of thing still goes on.
Blue touch paper is lit - discuss
lets hope that Jammers and Jenvey's forced retirement from this thread does not bring the discussion to an end.
They've only been sinbinned for two weeks. They'll soon be able to enter the discussion again. 4HP
To revitalise things, I wondered if things had changed at NJE over the past years.
For instance, when I voiced my concerns over operating outside the MEL with the Fleet Manager, I was told " Thats OK. We've been operating these airplanes for some time now and we know what we can get away with."
A subsequent gagging order means I am unsure how much detail I can go into. Just interested if that sort of thing still goes on.
Blue touch paper is lit - discuss
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 2nd Jan 2004 at 11:35.
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It will be good to have them both back for the second instalment.
I didn't realise there was so much unrest at NJE!! It really surprised me.
Now I'm not one to gloat. I'm not one to wallow in sour grapes. However i do find this thread interesting to say the least.
I didn't realise there was so much unrest at NJE!! It really surprised me.
Now I'm not one to gloat. I'm not one to wallow in sour grapes. However i do find this thread interesting to say the least.
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It's healthy!
You gotta be able to go at it too 4HP! Some of the best turning points in history came through colourful discussion.
I am happy to say that here at Netjets North America, they are very protective of their Operating Certificate. Often times I would like to carry a small broken item, like an Audio Control Panel and do a non-revenue flight through speakers, only to find it non-MEL'able. The company's response has always been the same..ground it!
The right to do charter here is obviously worth billions over the say, next 30 years. There is no way we take any chances. We live in a very litigious society
I am happy to say that here at Netjets North America, they are very protective of their Operating Certificate. Often times I would like to carry a small broken item, like an Audio Control Panel and do a non-revenue flight through speakers, only to find it non-MEL'able. The company's response has always been the same..ground it!
The right to do charter here is obviously worth billions over the say, next 30 years. There is no way we take any chances. We live in a very litigious society
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NetJets terms of employment
Haven´t read all of this thread, so apologies for any repetition.
Friend of mine flew for them up to 3 years ago after leaving an airline. Wasn´t allowed to see his contract until after he´d joined. Found he was employed through a Brass Plate company in the Caymans. When he was fired (for being honest) he as asked to take any complaints to the Cayman company..
appalling low standards at times, partly because the guy in charge of standards was an ex turboprop FO second-career guy..had come from the computer industry..later became NJE VP Europe I think. Among other things, the SOPs this guy had written were a joke, and routinely ignored (friend´s training captain didn´t mention them during training).
Passengers had to be lied to (several pilots were sanctioned for being honest for example about why they couldn't land at Chambery except in very good weather)
Very few pilots would speak up, as you could be fired on a whim..
This is an inherently unsafe working environment.
Friend of mine flew for them up to 3 years ago after leaving an airline. Wasn´t allowed to see his contract until after he´d joined. Found he was employed through a Brass Plate company in the Caymans. When he was fired (for being honest) he as asked to take any complaints to the Cayman company..
appalling low standards at times, partly because the guy in charge of standards was an ex turboprop FO second-career guy..had come from the computer industry..later became NJE VP Europe I think. Among other things, the SOPs this guy had written were a joke, and routinely ignored (friend´s training captain didn´t mention them during training).
Passengers had to be lied to (several pilots were sanctioned for being honest for example about why they couldn't land at Chambery except in very good weather)
Very few pilots would speak up, as you could be fired on a whim..
This is an inherently unsafe working environment.
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well waketurb, I too have heard those self same stories. I note that you relate using the past tense, from what I hear the the present could also be used.
The systematic firings continue with intimidation being the weapon of choice , and management hiding behind various, although perhaps legal, certainly immoral contract terms.
It is certainly about time time more facts are published about the goings on in Lis .
We maybe could start with a straight reply from Jenvey about the FTL situation put to him some time ago !
The systematic firings continue with intimidation being the weapon of choice , and management hiding behind various, although perhaps legal, certainly immoral contract terms.
It is certainly about time time more facts are published about the goings on in Lis .
We maybe could start with a straight reply from Jenvey about the FTL situation put to him some time ago !
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Dear 4HP.........given the last few recent posts on this thread what would make you think that anything has changed regarding the authenticity of what is really going on behind the scenery at NJE.......you would have to be quite naive( which I know you're not) to believe the degree of skullduggery going on with the assistance of the Portuguese authority regarding the NJE operation..........the most recent bone of contention being the female pilots on the Oct. 18th indoc(raising hell) after being told that once being found pregnant they would be released/and or not compensated according to EU regulations regarding their impending giving birth to a child because it did not fit in with the NJE ways of doing things.......sounds a bit of the way things were done in SA during the aparthied......probably though a complete coincidence though given that the current COO of NJE is of South- African descent.......and if this is true regarding this issue, it is a flagrant disregard for the female pilots employed by NJE with regard to EU Law........Ladies, choose your weapons.......MJ, happy New Year, answer the bloody question regarding your FTL, or I'll post it verbatim from the manual from which you make mentiom to and we'll both post it to CM for clarification ......what do you say old chap.......jolly hockey sticks and all that ****e!!
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Jammers - MJ and talking are mutually inseperable so he must be on tour or CM has read him the riot act. Have the NJE police identified you yet?
Why are you baying for blood? You know that NJE is breaking/bending FTLs so why are you asking MJ to put in print? Quite simply if NJE was based in the UK many of the first day of tour schedules would be illegal under CAP371. So until Portugal becomes fully JAA compliant maybe things might not change. However, what if the UK CAA knew what was going on and did a ramp check on the crew who had flown in your earlier scenario?
The choice is simple - if you don't agree with what they are doing either stay and accept it (I appreciate many with pilot training debt and young families have little choice) or leave.
That said I do think the Jammers v MJ wrestling match is bloody good sport. Seconds out Final Round.
Why are you baying for blood? You know that NJE is breaking/bending FTLs so why are you asking MJ to put in print? Quite simply if NJE was based in the UK many of the first day of tour schedules would be illegal under CAP371. So until Portugal becomes fully JAA compliant maybe things might not change. However, what if the UK CAA knew what was going on and did a ramp check on the crew who had flown in your earlier scenario?
The choice is simple - if you don't agree with what they are doing either stay and accept it (I appreciate many with pilot training debt and young families have little choice) or leave.
That said I do think the Jammers v MJ wrestling match is bloody good sport. Seconds out Final Round.
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The FTL discussion is interesting. Whether Netjets is breaking or just bending the rules we can only guess until someone states the facts.
As far as a change in the future when Portugal becomes a full member in the the JAA family, I'm more doubtful.
It seems as the Flight- and Dutytime regulations are very poorly, if at all, defined in the JAR's, and open up for discretionall interpitation for many of the operators/countries.
I was told by a friend in the CAA that there was little will at the JAA to take on the political struggle of defining this area and thus creating the standard. This is of course the area where one would expect some conciderable lobbyism to take place on behalf of the companies trying to keep their number of employees to a minimum. This is in my view, as a pilot, an area where we need to be alert. I have seen FOM's where Flight/dutytime was 11/14 hours( 14/17 hours with working FMS) a day. And this is while operating small/medium private jets.
There is in my view a desperate need for a standardisation of flight and duty-time in Europe. Countries blacklist operators over maintenance due to safety concerns. Excessive Dutytime is by all means a major safetyconcern and should be treated in the same category.
As long as Flight/Duty time regulations are illdefined, operators will be seeking harbours of convenience.
Just my opinion.
O
As far as a change in the future when Portugal becomes a full member in the the JAA family, I'm more doubtful.
It seems as the Flight- and Dutytime regulations are very poorly, if at all, defined in the JAR's, and open up for discretionall interpitation for many of the operators/countries.
I was told by a friend in the CAA that there was little will at the JAA to take on the political struggle of defining this area and thus creating the standard. This is of course the area where one would expect some conciderable lobbyism to take place on behalf of the companies trying to keep their number of employees to a minimum. This is in my view, as a pilot, an area where we need to be alert. I have seen FOM's where Flight/dutytime was 11/14 hours( 14/17 hours with working FMS) a day. And this is while operating small/medium private jets.
There is in my view a desperate need for a standardisation of flight and duty-time in Europe. Countries blacklist operators over maintenance due to safety concerns. Excessive Dutytime is by all means a major safetyconcern and should be treated in the same category.
As long as Flight/Duty time regulations are illdefined, operators will be seeking harbours of convenience.
Just my opinion.
O
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Wrong Sisters,
I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion, though I do believe MJ posts from where ever he is, from his wee XP to his bat cave back in Cambs.......he's reeling from a bloodied nose and I assume has been called in for tea ( don't know about the biscuits though) in LIS.......Baying for blood, no, revealing the truth, yes.Thought everyone( including MJ, I do miss him so) might find this article interesting though..........NJE do fly 6 on 5 off, could go to 7 on and 4 off though and during the busy season the lads are flown right up to the INAC limit of 55 hrs. a week, with CAP 371 NOT being adhered to.......Ramp checks on NJE aircraft could be quite revealing.........
Tue 13 Jan 2004
10:02am (UK)Tired Airline Pilots 'Could Be Safety Risk' By Jacqui Walls, PA News Passengers flying on budget airlines could be putting their lives in the hands of an exhausted pilot working a punishing schedule of flights, according to new research.An investigation into the condition of pilots working for low-cost carriers found more than half believed themselves to be “stressed and tired” at work.Researchers discovered instances of a pilot flying for six consecutive days, ( like NJE)others working for 12 hours without a meal break and ’plane-hopping’, where a crew is forced to dash from one plane to another.The self-assessment by ’no-frills’ pilots, who earn between £50,000 and £100,000 a year, revealed that they sometimes lose concentration due to fatigue.Dr Simon Bennett, of the University of Leicester, flew in the cockpit where he found many pilots complaining of punishing work schedules and disrupted sleep patterns.He said: “The business model that underpins low-cost carrier operations, with its emphasis on securing the maximum return on physical and human capital, has the potential to compromise safety.“While stress and fatigue are difficult to measure, and while the pilots’ statements were informed by subjective self-assessments, it is clear that further research is required.“This research should be informed by the disciplines of medical science, psychology and sociology. “My study was carried out without financial backing – with public safety in mind, and to improve conditions in the industry. It is vital that further studies are conducted.”The research was carried out by Dr Bennett, an airline safety consultant, in late 2001 and is published in the current edition of the International Journal of Risk Assessment and Management.
Cheers for NASA boffins, but a Scots accent is no good for English students.
©2004 Scotsman.com
I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion, though I do believe MJ posts from where ever he is, from his wee XP to his bat cave back in Cambs.......he's reeling from a bloodied nose and I assume has been called in for tea ( don't know about the biscuits though) in LIS.......Baying for blood, no, revealing the truth, yes.Thought everyone( including MJ, I do miss him so) might find this article interesting though..........NJE do fly 6 on 5 off, could go to 7 on and 4 off though and during the busy season the lads are flown right up to the INAC limit of 55 hrs. a week, with CAP 371 NOT being adhered to.......Ramp checks on NJE aircraft could be quite revealing.........
Tue 13 Jan 2004
10:02am (UK)Tired Airline Pilots 'Could Be Safety Risk' By Jacqui Walls, PA News Passengers flying on budget airlines could be putting their lives in the hands of an exhausted pilot working a punishing schedule of flights, according to new research.An investigation into the condition of pilots working for low-cost carriers found more than half believed themselves to be “stressed and tired” at work.Researchers discovered instances of a pilot flying for six consecutive days, ( like NJE)others working for 12 hours without a meal break and ’plane-hopping’, where a crew is forced to dash from one plane to another.The self-assessment by ’no-frills’ pilots, who earn between £50,000 and £100,000 a year, revealed that they sometimes lose concentration due to fatigue.Dr Simon Bennett, of the University of Leicester, flew in the cockpit where he found many pilots complaining of punishing work schedules and disrupted sleep patterns.He said: “The business model that underpins low-cost carrier operations, with its emphasis on securing the maximum return on physical and human capital, has the potential to compromise safety.“While stress and fatigue are difficult to measure, and while the pilots’ statements were informed by subjective self-assessments, it is clear that further research is required.“This research should be informed by the disciplines of medical science, psychology and sociology. “My study was carried out without financial backing – with public safety in mind, and to improve conditions in the industry. It is vital that further studies are conducted.”The research was carried out by Dr Bennett, an airline safety consultant, in late 2001 and is published in the current edition of the International Journal of Risk Assessment and Management.
Cheers for NASA boffins, but a Scots accent is no good for English students.
©2004 Scotsman.com
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Jammers, interesting that you draw parallels between NJE’s operations and budget airlines. Could I also make a couple of comparisons?
Crews scheduled for 20 min turn-rounds v 1 hour 30 min.
No meal breaks v Crew meals provided
Stress inducing mind-numbingly repetitive sectors v Varied and interesting flying
Disrupted irregular sleep patterns v Mainly flying daytime/early evening
Frequent plane hopping v Operating same airframe for a six day tour
Still nice attempt at muddying the water with an irrelevant newspaper article, Jammers….
Crews scheduled for 20 min turn-rounds v 1 hour 30 min.
No meal breaks v Crew meals provided
Stress inducing mind-numbingly repetitive sectors v Varied and interesting flying
Disrupted irregular sleep patterns v Mainly flying daytime/early evening
Frequent plane hopping v Operating same airframe for a six day tour
Still nice attempt at muddying the water with an irrelevant newspaper article, Jammers….
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6 on 5 off ? not so.
I understand that 6 on 5 off can be changed at the whim of management( translated as ops requirements ) ; indeed I hear that there have been instances of 6 on ( or more ) followed by 1 off ! If you refuse that too often, next plane home..............
Reason for dismissal, ' we don't need to give you one lad ! , read your contract '
Reason for dismissal, ' we don't need to give you one lad ! , read your contract '
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I enjoy my flying with NJE. Never done anything less than 6 on 4 off, I do see some guys get the odd 6 and 3 followed by maybe 7 days off. We are contracted to work 18 days a month if we work more, the company pays €270 - €370 a day extra. I could do with some more of that.
I have been called on a day off and asked to fly but it was not possible and guess what, I didn't get sacked or even a trip to Portugal!
As for FTL don't blame Netjets, blame the JAA. Nothing will be done until a 'sub part Q' of JAA Ops is written and then maybe the INAC will adopt it. It is arrogant to expect another country to use CAP 371 when their FTLs have seemed to work for so many years.
I do have an honest question for jammers, if you hate it so much why don't you quit??
I have been called on a day off and asked to fly but it was not possible and guess what, I didn't get sacked or even a trip to Portugal!
As for FTL don't blame Netjets, blame the JAA. Nothing will be done until a 'sub part Q' of JAA Ops is written and then maybe the INAC will adopt it. It is arrogant to expect another country to use CAP 371 when their FTLs have seemed to work for so many years.
I do have an honest question for jammers, if you hate it so much why don't you quit??
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Dear CC,
Whoever said I was an NJE pilot....I certainly didn't......I do however have many friends who are your colleages and through whom I am reliably informed of the carry-on.......and through whom they are able to vent their fustrations on this forum without being reported by the NJE police.......arrogant, you say, to use CAP 371, get with it boy.....practically the whole of the western world uses some form very close to it as a basis for FTL....forgive me , but the last time I checked, Portugal was part of the EU......to ask a pilot to deadhead before a duty and not count that time towards duty-time, now that's arrogant.....to give Netjets pilots only 2 weeks leave a year while almost everyone else gets 6 weeks, now that's arrogant.....INAC's FTL's have worked so well for all this time because of the mentality that exists there....remember, the country was a dictatorship until recently, and I'm not talking about bastille day........To fly a crew, operating to NJE FTL's, into UK airspace while the rest of us are in it......now that's arrogance
Whoever said I was an NJE pilot....I certainly didn't......I do however have many friends who are your colleages and through whom I am reliably informed of the carry-on.......and through whom they are able to vent their fustrations on this forum without being reported by the NJE police.......arrogant, you say, to use CAP 371, get with it boy.....practically the whole of the western world uses some form very close to it as a basis for FTL....forgive me , but the last time I checked, Portugal was part of the EU......to ask a pilot to deadhead before a duty and not count that time towards duty-time, now that's arrogant.....to give Netjets pilots only 2 weeks leave a year while almost everyone else gets 6 weeks, now that's arrogant.....INAC's FTL's have worked so well for all this time because of the mentality that exists there....remember, the country was a dictatorship until recently, and I'm not talking about bastille day........To fly a crew, operating to NJE FTL's, into UK airspace while the rest of us are in it......now that's arrogance