Netjets claim to have the BEST pilots!!
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these people are answerable to whom ?
As has been said before, this company is a contract job with absolutely no redress in the event of a dispute.
Other companies have unhappy disgruntled employees, yes, of course they do.
At least in most cases,the employer can be made to answer for their actions, ultimately, in court. I have not heard of any party taking NJE to court EVER !
What does that say, loud and clear ?
Any info on that score would be heartily welcomed by many readers of this thread.
If they decide they no longer wish to employ individuals, they are simply fired. There are no reasons given. Even the most basic of employment law gives the employee the right to know why !
Not with this wonderful company though......
Other companies have unhappy disgruntled employees, yes, of course they do.
At least in most cases,the employer can be made to answer for their actions, ultimately, in court. I have not heard of any party taking NJE to court EVER !
What does that say, loud and clear ?
Any info on that score would be heartily welcomed by many readers of this thread.
If they decide they no longer wish to employ individuals, they are simply fired. There are no reasons given. Even the most basic of employment law gives the employee the right to know why !
Not with this wonderful company though......
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As usual, jenvey, your replies become personal. Nothing new then, not actually addressing the issue. Probably because you are unable to and are relying on the spoonfed bull from LIS ( BON )
As you can't actually answer the case against your 'employers', if indeed that's what they are, your feeble responses surprise nobody.
As you can't actually answer the case against your 'employers', if indeed that's what they are, your feeble responses surprise nobody.
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Jammers.
Firstly, i am not Mr Mike Jenvey Esq. Naturally I do know him and have operated with him many times. I am not in cahoots with him with regard to this matter. My posts on this website are my own opinions on this circular debate.
I asked you several questions which you have failed to answer. Cutting and pasting your previous posts doesn't qualify i'm afraid.
Even if one is a contract pilot, one would still have to abide to an accepted FTL scheme. The NJE scheme has been found acceptable by the INAC. True, NJE utilise it to it's legal maximum, as do countless other operators. Please view posts on EZY working conditions and the migration of pilots from that company. 40 so far this year, if my memory serves me correctly.
If NJE employees are all "contract pilots", why is it that I receive a fixed monthly salary with employee benefits, standard vacation and pension packages? Why is it that I am NOT allowed to fly for anyone else for hire and reward? Surely if I was a contracted mercenary I could go where the wind blows me?
I am getting a feeling here that some people participating on this thread are those kind of pilots who only wear the uniform for the money, want to do as little work as possible but receive the ego-boosting kudos of " being a pilot". Big deal. If you want to make money and do no work, then i suggest dealing on the futures market.
Living in spain....
I happen to know the circumstances of your dismissals from BOTH NJEME AND NJE. Why aren't you taking the company to court if you feel so aggrieved? Or could it be that secretly, deep down inside you know that you deserved it???
Anyway, I have tried not to be insulting to either of you two gentlemen, indeed, I sincerely hope that you, Jammers, enjoyed your vacation with your family and that L-I-S is doing well in Malaga. At the end of the day, our families and loved ones are the reasons we all work so hard.
Surely neither of you will disagree with that.
Yours respectfully,
Firstly, i am not Mr Mike Jenvey Esq. Naturally I do know him and have operated with him many times. I am not in cahoots with him with regard to this matter. My posts on this website are my own opinions on this circular debate.
I asked you several questions which you have failed to answer. Cutting and pasting your previous posts doesn't qualify i'm afraid.
Even if one is a contract pilot, one would still have to abide to an accepted FTL scheme. The NJE scheme has been found acceptable by the INAC. True, NJE utilise it to it's legal maximum, as do countless other operators. Please view posts on EZY working conditions and the migration of pilots from that company. 40 so far this year, if my memory serves me correctly.
If NJE employees are all "contract pilots", why is it that I receive a fixed monthly salary with employee benefits, standard vacation and pension packages? Why is it that I am NOT allowed to fly for anyone else for hire and reward? Surely if I was a contracted mercenary I could go where the wind blows me?
I am getting a feeling here that some people participating on this thread are those kind of pilots who only wear the uniform for the money, want to do as little work as possible but receive the ego-boosting kudos of " being a pilot". Big deal. If you want to make money and do no work, then i suggest dealing on the futures market.
Living in spain....
I happen to know the circumstances of your dismissals from BOTH NJEME AND NJE. Why aren't you taking the company to court if you feel so aggrieved? Or could it be that secretly, deep down inside you know that you deserved it???
Anyway, I have tried not to be insulting to either of you two gentlemen, indeed, I sincerely hope that you, Jammers, enjoyed your vacation with your family and that L-I-S is doing well in Malaga. At the end of the day, our families and loved ones are the reasons we all work so hard.
Surely neither of you will disagree with that.
Yours respectfully,
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Mumble,
Nice try at the good cop smoke and mirrors routine but you must know that it only works on the children who've never worked in the business. I let your first missive pass but not a second time.
Your 'rebutals' are incredibly carefully worded semantic nulls. Being polite doesn't actually help - bluff and bluster would actually disguise the lack of substantive denial to greater effect.
If you actually believe one word of the bollocks you're spouting just give the punters here on PPRuNe the name and address of the company employing you - that's the name and address on your contract. That is to say the company you would have to resolve any dispute with in the unfortunate case that the sun might not be seen to shine out of your fundament anymore?
I have taken on board the assurances given to me privately that there is someone in a significant position within NJE now trying to make a difference in several important areas. However, as or until that bears fruit in a way that pro pilots outside NJE can see our position here at the Towers has no cause to change.
One final point to the pro NJE camp. This policy on PPRuNe is entirely of your own making. You have 100% brought it upon yourselves. In February 2001 your Ops Director at the time tried to recruit myself and Danny - the deal was made clear then in all respects and it happened in public rather than through correspondence as all three of us were speakers at a conference. For the old hands at NJE I can quote Bruce's standard pitch with an accuracy you'll find quite eeerie! Sadly his idea of '80th percentile airline pay' seemed to be based on the Hillman Airways contract of 1938 for the deHavilland Rapide rather than any numbers we were familiar with but I digress:
In over 3 years since not one of you working for NJE has ever told what we 100% know to be the truth regarding contracts and FTL's. Have a look just how long we gave you before intervening. Every NJE employee here has made every possible effort month after month to avoid at any cost letting the cat out of the bag regarding those two areas - the search engine is at everyone's disposal to prove this to their own satisfation.
NJE drivers - You reap what you sow until the reform wing makes genuine progess in Lisbon. It is a contract job with no protection in law anywhere in the world while operations are predicated under flight time limitations that are bent and being savagely attacked by accident investigators and national authorities throughout Europe.
Rob
Nice try at the good cop smoke and mirrors routine but you must know that it only works on the children who've never worked in the business. I let your first missive pass but not a second time.
Your 'rebutals' are incredibly carefully worded semantic nulls. Being polite doesn't actually help - bluff and bluster would actually disguise the lack of substantive denial to greater effect.
If you actually believe one word of the bollocks you're spouting just give the punters here on PPRuNe the name and address of the company employing you - that's the name and address on your contract. That is to say the company you would have to resolve any dispute with in the unfortunate case that the sun might not be seen to shine out of your fundament anymore?
I have taken on board the assurances given to me privately that there is someone in a significant position within NJE now trying to make a difference in several important areas. However, as or until that bears fruit in a way that pro pilots outside NJE can see our position here at the Towers has no cause to change.
One final point to the pro NJE camp. This policy on PPRuNe is entirely of your own making. You have 100% brought it upon yourselves. In February 2001 your Ops Director at the time tried to recruit myself and Danny - the deal was made clear then in all respects and it happened in public rather than through correspondence as all three of us were speakers at a conference. For the old hands at NJE I can quote Bruce's standard pitch with an accuracy you'll find quite eeerie! Sadly his idea of '80th percentile airline pay' seemed to be based on the Hillman Airways contract of 1938 for the deHavilland Rapide rather than any numbers we were familiar with but I digress:
In over 3 years since not one of you working for NJE has ever told what we 100% know to be the truth regarding contracts and FTL's. Have a look just how long we gave you before intervening. Every NJE employee here has made every possible effort month after month to avoid at any cost letting the cat out of the bag regarding those two areas - the search engine is at everyone's disposal to prove this to their own satisfation.
NJE drivers - You reap what you sow until the reform wing makes genuine progess in Lisbon. It is a contract job with no protection in law anywhere in the world while operations are predicated under flight time limitations that are bent and being savagely attacked by accident investigators and national authorities throughout Europe.
Rob
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Thanks Rob, I couldn't have hoped to put it so eloquently myself. Nice looking soapbox.
Regretfully, even with your sage input I have my doubts that some of these debaters will put this one to rest - it has become a way of life for a few of them.
We live, as they say, in interesting times.
4HP
Regretfully, even with your sage input I have my doubts that some of these debaters will put this one to rest - it has become a way of life for a few of them.
We live, as they say, in interesting times.
4HP
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Enough. I'm bored now.
The reason I joined this debate was that I found it mentally stimulating to joust with other intelligent professionals. I don't swear online, I'm not abusive to my peers. I just enjoy the banter. Disappointed with the lack of intelligence though, I must confess.
My actual opinion is as follows... I don't give damn what anyone thinks of me or the company I work for. I am happy in my job, and massivley happy in myself. I don't get so worked up like Jammers and Co. Life is far too short.
Mr Pprune Towers...
You're very anti NJE. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But why get so stroppy. Do you actually give a damn whether a NJE pilot is fired or not. Doesn't affect you one iota. You obviously don't work for NJE, maybe you used to, I don't know. If pilots are happy to work for NJE then bloody well let them!! It is their decision.
On top of that, most people get fired for a reason, not just because the sun stops shining out their arse, as you so immaturely put it.
I can only recommend that you sit back and reflect on the reasons for your diatribe and then GROW UP.!!
In closing, the opening post on this thread was " NJE claim to have the best pilots"....questions:::
what is the best pilot?
who is the best pilot?
Is it Chuck Jaeger, Bob Hoover perhaps? or is it that monkey that went up into space?
Stupid statement, Mr Silverhawk
Expect to be barred after this, but like I said I'm bored now.
Oh I forgot to mention that we should all re-read the post by BRANLEUR ( nice name my friend ) and take note.
I\'m sure we have all been unemployed at some stage in our careers, and as our french friend says..a job in the hand is better thean 2 in the bush!!.
Merci, et bon vol tout le monde
The reason I joined this debate was that I found it mentally stimulating to joust with other intelligent professionals. I don't swear online, I'm not abusive to my peers. I just enjoy the banter. Disappointed with the lack of intelligence though, I must confess.
My actual opinion is as follows... I don't give damn what anyone thinks of me or the company I work for. I am happy in my job, and massivley happy in myself. I don't get so worked up like Jammers and Co. Life is far too short.
Mr Pprune Towers...
You're very anti NJE. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But why get so stroppy. Do you actually give a damn whether a NJE pilot is fired or not. Doesn't affect you one iota. You obviously don't work for NJE, maybe you used to, I don't know. If pilots are happy to work for NJE then bloody well let them!! It is their decision.
On top of that, most people get fired for a reason, not just because the sun stops shining out their arse, as you so immaturely put it.
I can only recommend that you sit back and reflect on the reasons for your diatribe and then GROW UP.!!
In closing, the opening post on this thread was " NJE claim to have the best pilots"....questions:::
what is the best pilot?
who is the best pilot?
Is it Chuck Jaeger, Bob Hoover perhaps? or is it that monkey that went up into space?
Stupid statement, Mr Silverhawk
Expect to be barred after this, but like I said I'm bored now.
Oh I forgot to mention that we should all re-read the post by BRANLEUR ( nice name my friend ) and take note.
I\'m sure we have all been unemployed at some stage in our careers, and as our french friend says..a job in the hand is better thean 2 in the bush!!.
Merci, et bon vol tout le monde
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Oh Mumble.........you're bored so easily........looks more to me like you were very quickly put back into your box.......lack of intelligence is subjective, on the other hand the facts are not.......if you don't give a damn about what people think then I feel sorry for you, your fellow crew members and especially your customers who pay ALOT of money for the priviledge to fly with someone who 'doesn't give a damn'.......
Muumble says, "On top of that, most people get fired for a reason, not just because the sun stops shining out their arse, as you so immaturely put it."........we are obviously not talking about the same company mumble.....
PPrune Towers says, "We at the Towers have to make it utterly clear that NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline.
May I suggest that if you just face the facts, stop your denial you'll be half way to convalescence and recovery and be able to enjoy your job even more( that is though until somebody decides you have an attitude problem, or you part your hair in an inappropriate manner.) As for silverhawk, LIS, jammers kelly hopper etc. they are not the slightest bit worked up nearly about this subject as you have obviously come across.....they simply are IMHO trying to expose the underhandedness of this unknown entity called 'NJE' and are concerned about the erosion worldwide of this profession, especially regarding renumeration, working conditions and contracts that reflect the laws of the countries you operate in. Never has the question been ever answered in a direct fashion by the NJE cheerleaders as to when does you Duty Day start, though at this point I think we all know the answer.........regardless of when or where you start or the duration of your deadhead to meet your aircraft, your duty day
starts ( like they say on broadway 'showtime') is 90 min. prior to your departure.........a direct contradiction to Portuguese INAC Regs........being on the brink of full JAA membership and having full JAA membership are two totally different things.....apples and oranges.......Wake up and smell the roses......working 6-11 days a month, how could I be bitter......cynical about NJE and their US labour practices, you are correct. The information I receive from many friends who work for the 'firm' confirm what you call 'diatribe'..........my condolences on not getting into AF.
SALUT
"NJE drivers - You reap what you sow until the reform wing makes genuine progess in Lisbon. It is a contract job with no protection in law anywhere in the world while operations are predicated under flight time limitations that are bent and being savagely attacked by accident investigators and national authorities throughout Europe"........PP Towers says it all doesn't it, but then again what would he know moderating one of the largest Professional Pilot web-sites in the world
Muumble says, "On top of that, most people get fired for a reason, not just because the sun stops shining out their arse, as you so immaturely put it."........we are obviously not talking about the same company mumble.....
PPrune Towers says, "We at the Towers have to make it utterly clear that NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline.
May I suggest that if you just face the facts, stop your denial you'll be half way to convalescence and recovery and be able to enjoy your job even more( that is though until somebody decides you have an attitude problem, or you part your hair in an inappropriate manner.) As for silverhawk, LIS, jammers kelly hopper etc. they are not the slightest bit worked up nearly about this subject as you have obviously come across.....they simply are IMHO trying to expose the underhandedness of this unknown entity called 'NJE' and are concerned about the erosion worldwide of this profession, especially regarding renumeration, working conditions and contracts that reflect the laws of the countries you operate in. Never has the question been ever answered in a direct fashion by the NJE cheerleaders as to when does you Duty Day start, though at this point I think we all know the answer.........regardless of when or where you start or the duration of your deadhead to meet your aircraft, your duty day
starts ( like they say on broadway 'showtime') is 90 min. prior to your departure.........a direct contradiction to Portuguese INAC Regs........being on the brink of full JAA membership and having full JAA membership are two totally different things.....apples and oranges.......Wake up and smell the roses......working 6-11 days a month, how could I be bitter......cynical about NJE and their US labour practices, you are correct. The information I receive from many friends who work for the 'firm' confirm what you call 'diatribe'..........my condolences on not getting into AF.
SALUT
"NJE drivers - You reap what you sow until the reform wing makes genuine progess in Lisbon. It is a contract job with no protection in law anywhere in the world while operations are predicated under flight time limitations that are bent and being savagely attacked by accident investigators and national authorities throughout Europe"........PP Towers says it all doesn't it, but then again what would he know moderating one of the largest Professional Pilot web-sites in the world
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Oh Dear,
Did poor little publius get fired by Netjets?
If you have " many friends" who work for "the company" , as you say you do, then why are they still there if the conditions are so crap??
Smells like Buls**t to me.
Or is it because most lazy people who don't want to work have to find something to whinge about?
Some corrections to your long winded cut and paste post....
I don't have a box to be put into. By anybody.
I'm not French
And I didn't apply to AF.
Standard incorrect facts, again.
Yawn yawn
Did poor little publius get fired by Netjets?
If you have " many friends" who work for "the company" , as you say you do, then why are they still there if the conditions are so crap??
Smells like Buls**t to me.
Or is it because most lazy people who don't want to work have to find something to whinge about?
Some corrections to your long winded cut and paste post....
I don't have a box to be put into. By anybody.
I'm not French
And I didn't apply to AF.
Standard incorrect facts, again.
Yawn yawn
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Mumble,
You've been given enough 'SIM' time to put the facts straight over the past few months........fired from NJE....LOL....I've never been that desperate, or should I say I've been fortunate enough in my career not to have to contemplate a two bit contract job with any company, especially NJE.....my friends are there because of the cyclical nature of the industry we work for, and there is little else out there.....where the hell have you been for the last few years......makes me wonder how the hell you ever got a flying job with the lack of knowledge you have on current events, even the way you go on and on in your denial of the facts that are CONSTANTLY presented to you in easy to read anglais.....now I'm bored......try reading Towers post again, nice and slowly with a scotch in one hand and let it sink in.......the denial thing is hard to face, but stick with it kid, you can do it!!!
PPRuNe Towers:
Mumble,
Nice try at the good cop smoke and mirrors routine but you must know that it only works on the children who've never worked in the business. I let your first missive pass but not a second time.
Your 'rebutals' are incredibly carefully worded semantic nulls. Being polite doesn't actually help - bluff and bluster would actually disguise the lack of substantive denial to greater effect.
If you actually believe one word of the bollocks you're spouting just give the punters here on PPRuNe the name and address of the company employing you - that's the name and address on your contract. That is to say the company you would have to resolve any dispute with in the unfortunate case that the sun might not be seen to shine out of your fundament anymore?
4HolerPoler
Thanks Rob, I couldn't have hoped to put it so eloquently myself.
Try staying awake at your next CRM Mumble, you might learn something.
You've been given enough 'SIM' time to put the facts straight over the past few months........fired from NJE....LOL....I've never been that desperate, or should I say I've been fortunate enough in my career not to have to contemplate a two bit contract job with any company, especially NJE.....my friends are there because of the cyclical nature of the industry we work for, and there is little else out there.....where the hell have you been for the last few years......makes me wonder how the hell you ever got a flying job with the lack of knowledge you have on current events, even the way you go on and on in your denial of the facts that are CONSTANTLY presented to you in easy to read anglais.....now I'm bored......try reading Towers post again, nice and slowly with a scotch in one hand and let it sink in.......the denial thing is hard to face, but stick with it kid, you can do it!!!
PPRuNe Towers:
Mumble,
Nice try at the good cop smoke and mirrors routine but you must know that it only works on the children who've never worked in the business. I let your first missive pass but not a second time.
Your 'rebutals' are incredibly carefully worded semantic nulls. Being polite doesn't actually help - bluff and bluster would actually disguise the lack of substantive denial to greater effect.
If you actually believe one word of the bollocks you're spouting just give the punters here on PPRuNe the name and address of the company employing you - that's the name and address on your contract. That is to say the company you would have to resolve any dispute with in the unfortunate case that the sun might not be seen to shine out of your fundament anymore?
4HolerPoler
Thanks Rob, I couldn't have hoped to put it so eloquently myself.
Try staying awake at your next CRM Mumble, you might learn something.
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You're getting very good at the old cut and paste chum, be tying your own shoelaces next!!
Obviously you don't have an opinion of your own. No, you just copy everyone else.
I've asked the other people on this tread to substantiate ( that means prove, by the way ) their claims of NJE misdealings with regard to the FTL scheme, and suprise suprise...NO ANSWERS.
Why don't you admit that this is a RUMOUR network, and that most threads start with the immortal " heard this from some guy the other day...can anyone tell me if it's true..."
Better PM 4HP so he can tell you what to write next time out !!
Oh, and please don't call me kid.
toodle pip ol boy
Obviously you don't have an opinion of your own. No, you just copy everyone else.
I've asked the other people on this tread to substantiate ( that means prove, by the way ) their claims of NJE misdealings with regard to the FTL scheme, and suprise suprise...NO ANSWERS.
Why don't you admit that this is a RUMOUR network, and that most threads start with the immortal " heard this from some guy the other day...can anyone tell me if it's true..."
Better PM 4HP so he can tell you what to write next time out !!
Oh, and please don't call me kid.
toodle pip ol boy
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Is this thread raging because Netjets (not the pilots) just p1ss people off generally?
They are taking over the GA world as we have known it for so many years, they have put people out of work by having their very aggressive sales teams constantly pester aircraft owners (and I guess potential owners) into using their aircraft rather than their own.
Everywhere you go now you see Netjets pilots and aircraft. For those of us in GA it is like watching the plague spread and wondering when it will be our turn next to start looking for another job. It is understandable then, when told that Netjets have the best pilots that people get a bit defensive. Netjets has many ex corporate and air taxi pilots working for them and I know one or two of the older guys working for NJE and they are very good pilots, always have been as long as I have known them, but that has got nothing to do with NJE.
NJE also have many very low hour pilots, some who seem to be posting in here, obviously very happy with their shiny new jobs, and quite rightly so, they get half descent money not particularly bad conditions and get to go home once every six days.
So would it not have been better to have the advertising slogan to read, “Netjets employ some of the better pilots, but we also employ some with little experience”.
Would the ‘best’ pilots have bent the wings on a Citation Excel (twice!), the mod to the flaps is now called the “Netjets mod”. Handling agents Europe wide don’t seem to have a nice thing to say about Netjets, they are pushy and demanding, but then they would say that to me because I don’t work for Netjets.
One final question, and I admit it is slightly off topic, If I own a share in the next Netjet excel that bends its wings and maybe doesn’t recover, am I liable for any damage or death (heaven forbid) caused if law suits start flying around as they do these days when the insurance money isn’t enough to cover the liabilities? I’m just trying to build up ammunition to fight the next onslaught of Netjet phone calls
They are taking over the GA world as we have known it for so many years, they have put people out of work by having their very aggressive sales teams constantly pester aircraft owners (and I guess potential owners) into using their aircraft rather than their own.
Everywhere you go now you see Netjets pilots and aircraft. For those of us in GA it is like watching the plague spread and wondering when it will be our turn next to start looking for another job. It is understandable then, when told that Netjets have the best pilots that people get a bit defensive. Netjets has many ex corporate and air taxi pilots working for them and I know one or two of the older guys working for NJE and they are very good pilots, always have been as long as I have known them, but that has got nothing to do with NJE.
NJE also have many very low hour pilots, some who seem to be posting in here, obviously very happy with their shiny new jobs, and quite rightly so, they get half descent money not particularly bad conditions and get to go home once every six days.
So would it not have been better to have the advertising slogan to read, “Netjets employ some of the better pilots, but we also employ some with little experience”.
Would the ‘best’ pilots have bent the wings on a Citation Excel (twice!), the mod to the flaps is now called the “Netjets mod”. Handling agents Europe wide don’t seem to have a nice thing to say about Netjets, they are pushy and demanding, but then they would say that to me because I don’t work for Netjets.
One final question, and I admit it is slightly off topic, If I own a share in the next Netjet excel that bends its wings and maybe doesn’t recover, am I liable for any damage or death (heaven forbid) caused if law suits start flying around as they do these days when the insurance money isn’t enough to cover the liabilities? I’m just trying to build up ammunition to fight the next onslaught of Netjet phone calls
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I don't know why you all are continually hacking on NJE? Mostly it sounds like sour grapes! What company in the world does not want to advertise they `have the best pilots'? Would it be good marketing to say they had morons for drivers? As for a company growing and being compared to a plague......its called capitalism! Its growing for a reason, try a good product for the customer.
As for `bad' pilots, only flown wih one....but he was french....
As for `bad' pilots, only flown wih one....but he was french....
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How many European Netjets pilots fly the new GIVs (how many pilots for that fleet)? How many GIVs will be added? I imagine it is going pretty senior...
When hired, where will most newhires go - Excel, Hawker, Bravo? Are newhires EVER given a choice or is it just a matter of need?
When hired, where will most newhires go - Excel, Hawker, Bravo? Are newhires EVER given a choice or is it just a matter of need?
