What REALLY Happened To Nigger?
Jensdad,
Whilst not agreeing, I respect your opinion and have no intention of administering the earful treatment.
However, the point is that the dog had a name which was considered to be generally acceptable at the time and it is not necessary to change its name now. As was pointed out in an earlier post; a capital 'N' denotes a name/proper noun or whatever, whilst a small 'n' is a word accepted to mean a group of people of a certain ethnic grouping and one which most people would eschew using NOW - but not THEN.
Some portraits of Isambard Kingdom Brunel have been retouched to remove his cigar! It's not necessary to rewrite/redraw history. Tony Blair made various meaningless apologies for what were - after all - the social mores of the time; absolutely pointless.
Old Duffer
PS 'Forget' I'm neither that clever nor that sneaky!!
Whilst not agreeing, I respect your opinion and have no intention of administering the earful treatment.
However, the point is that the dog had a name which was considered to be generally acceptable at the time and it is not necessary to change its name now. As was pointed out in an earlier post; a capital 'N' denotes a name/proper noun or whatever, whilst a small 'n' is a word accepted to mean a group of people of a certain ethnic grouping and one which most people would eschew using NOW - but not THEN.
Some portraits of Isambard Kingdom Brunel have been retouched to remove his cigar! It's not necessary to rewrite/redraw history. Tony Blair made various meaningless apologies for what were - after all - the social mores of the time; absolutely pointless.
Old Duffer
PS 'Forget' I'm neither that clever nor that sneaky!!
Worse than that, the statue put up a few years ago in the middle of the campus of Brunel University omitted the cigar.
An utterly pointless bit of political correctness. Particularly since it is still perfectly legal to smoke a cigar - at home or outdoors anyhow. The legality and morality of smoking remains much clearer than calling a dog (or anybody else) Nigger.
At least nobody has yet started objecting violently to large hats.
G
An utterly pointless bit of political correctness. Particularly since it is still perfectly legal to smoke a cigar - at home or outdoors anyhow. The legality and morality of smoking remains much clearer than calling a dog (or anybody else) Nigger.
At least nobody has yet started objecting violently to large hats.
G
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear me! Whatever happened to judgement and a sense of proportion? This pc dictatorship makes me want to scream!
I can't help thinking that people who squeal self-righteously every time they hear a word but don't consider the context are barking emptily like Pavlov's dogs, parroting a half-baked fad that they are blindly copying and have in no way thought through. That is an indication of extreme narrow-mindedness and owes little to rational thought or intelligence. The reaction that words must be banned is closely akin to the burning of books and is about as "un-pc" as it is possible to be. Indeed, when you consider it, there is nothing less pc then pc itself which is why it is a nonsense.
Nigger was the name of a dog in an age whan it was not offensive. In conjunction with the word "brown" it was (and accurately still is) also a colour in an artists pallette and in textiles. It is not in any way derogatory in any of those contexts. It may be if applied to a coloured person in a derigatory manner - "may be" because some use it amongst themselves, demonstrating again the importance of context.
A faggot is just a bundle of wood in the UK but in the US can also be applied to a certain persuasion of male. If you're referring to firewood it is fine, whyever not? A fag is a cigarette in the UK, but that is out of context in the US where it is certainly somewhat derogatory. Americans still speak of coons without feeling contentious as it is short for a type of animal that we don't have here, which is why on this side of the pond it is best avoided. In Norfolk a dyke is full of water. Anyone who gets offended at that is full of something else a dyke might sometimes contain. An Australian calls his best mate a bastard. So what?
I don't think it would be right to call a dog Nigger nowadays, but it is a bizarre form of Victorian prudery to censor its use in a historical context, like putting pants on Micheal Angelo's David. Quite why injuns or blackboards could be seen as offensive is utterly beyond my comprehension, but reminds me that the age of religious bigotry and blinkered intolerance in which we burned heretics and drowned witches is not as far away as it ought to be.
There are certainly some words that probably should not be heard in public, particularly on the public media as they will always cause deep offense in some people, but these words have no meaning but ones that are utterly and deliberately offensive. Nigger, when applied to the RAF's most famous dog is not one of them.
I can't help thinking that people who squeal self-righteously every time they hear a word but don't consider the context are barking emptily like Pavlov's dogs, parroting a half-baked fad that they are blindly copying and have in no way thought through. That is an indication of extreme narrow-mindedness and owes little to rational thought or intelligence. The reaction that words must be banned is closely akin to the burning of books and is about as "un-pc" as it is possible to be. Indeed, when you consider it, there is nothing less pc then pc itself which is why it is a nonsense.
Nigger was the name of a dog in an age whan it was not offensive. In conjunction with the word "brown" it was (and accurately still is) also a colour in an artists pallette and in textiles. It is not in any way derogatory in any of those contexts. It may be if applied to a coloured person in a derigatory manner - "may be" because some use it amongst themselves, demonstrating again the importance of context.
A faggot is just a bundle of wood in the UK but in the US can also be applied to a certain persuasion of male. If you're referring to firewood it is fine, whyever not? A fag is a cigarette in the UK, but that is out of context in the US where it is certainly somewhat derogatory. Americans still speak of coons without feeling contentious as it is short for a type of animal that we don't have here, which is why on this side of the pond it is best avoided. In Norfolk a dyke is full of water. Anyone who gets offended at that is full of something else a dyke might sometimes contain. An Australian calls his best mate a bastard. So what?
I don't think it would be right to call a dog Nigger nowadays, but it is a bizarre form of Victorian prudery to censor its use in a historical context, like putting pants on Micheal Angelo's David. Quite why injuns or blackboards could be seen as offensive is utterly beyond my comprehension, but reminds me that the age of religious bigotry and blinkered intolerance in which we burned heretics and drowned witches is not as far away as it ought to be.
There are certainly some words that probably should not be heard in public, particularly on the public media as they will always cause deep offense in some people, but these words have no meaning but ones that are utterly and deliberately offensive. Nigger, when applied to the RAF's most famous dog is not one of them.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 18th Feb 2011 at 16:20.
However, the point is that the dog had a name which was considered to be generally acceptable at the time and it is not necessary to change its name now.
............
“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
The words of a rather famous statesman of the period. And if we keep changing the recorded facts, how will future generations learn from history if the records are inaccurate?
The words of a rather famous statesman of the period. And if we keep changing the recorded facts, how will future generations learn from history if the records are inaccurate?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Surrey, Uk
Age: 72
Posts: 1,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my youth I worked as an agricultral labourer at RAF Scampton.
This is an extract from my autobiography.
One of my tasks was the upkeep of Niggers grave. Nigger was the Black Labrador pet dog belonging to Wing Commander Guy Gibson, Commander of 617 Squadron. On the night of 16th May 1943, Nigger was killed by a car when he strayed beyond the camp boundaries just as 617 Squadron crews were preparing for the raids on the Ruhr Dams. Gibson was devastated. Not only had Nigger been a friend, he had also been the squadrons mascot. He asked that Nigger be buried in a plot of land outside 617 Squadron hangers. There he remains to this day. He has a small rectangular plot with a marble headstone. I would make sure that the grass was always neat and whenever possible flowers were in abundance. A local story that has been circulating for many years is that Nigger was never buried there at all. The airman tasked by Charles Whitworth, the station commander, to arrange the burial sold Nigger to the local nackers yard. Whether this is true or just urban myth, who knows.
The inscription reads
Nigger
The grave of a Black Labrador Dog.
Mascot of 617 Squadron. Owned by Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC, DSO, DFC.
Nigger was killed by a car on the 16th May 1943.
Buried at midnight as his owner was leading his Squadron on an attack against the Mohne and Oder Dams.
C.
Last edited by Mr_Grubby; 18th Feb 2011 at 18:35. Reason: spelin
jensdad
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that if Guy Gibson's dog hadn't been called what he was called,
God almighty, all this PC bull**** does my head in.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that if Guy Gibson's dog hadn't been called what he was called, you wouldn't be writing a magazine article about him.
It is an offensive word, regardless of what some people,on this forum seem to think. I get the impression that some people love slipping the subject of Guy Gibson's dog into a conversation because it gives them an excuse to use that particular word.
I probably won't bother reading the rest of this thread as I can already guess I'm going to get a right slagging-off. You can call this post 'politically-correct BS' if you want. I call it being respectful.
It is an offensive word, regardless of what some people,on this forum seem to think. I get the impression that some people love slipping the subject of Guy Gibson's dog into a conversation because it gives them an excuse to use that particular word.
I probably won't bother reading the rest of this thread as I can already guess I'm going to get a right slagging-off. You can call this post 'politically-correct BS' if you want. I call it being respectful.
On the whole, I think you're wrong. If the dog had been called Coaldust, or Snowdrop, it would still be an incredibly poignient story within a broader story of great historical, national, and sentimental significance to any Brit who cares about our history, particularly our aviation history.
G
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Belfast
Age: 60
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Editing of the thread to remove the offensive word would result in it being given the title "What really happened to Guy Gibson's black labrador?" .........or "What really happened to Guy Gibson's labrador?"..........or "What really happened to Guy Gibson's dog?" The question could be fully answered without the word being used.
If my concern about the use of this word places me firmly in the ranks of the "PC Brigade" then so be it.
Other contributors have made reference to issues such as the cigar on Isambard Kingdom Brunel's statue and use of the term "blackboard". Neither of these are relevant. My concern is solely about the inclusion of a word which is used to insult, deride and belittle people on the basis of their skin colour.
The word does not need to be used and should not be a part of anyone's vocabulary in 2011.
If my concern about the use of this word places me firmly in the ranks of the "PC Brigade" then so be it.
Other contributors have made reference to issues such as the cigar on Isambard Kingdom Brunel's statue and use of the term "blackboard". Neither of these are relevant. My concern is solely about the inclusion of a word which is used to insult, deride and belittle people on the basis of their skin colour.
The word does not need to be used and should not be a part of anyone's vocabulary in 2011.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Actually, Nigger wasn't killed at all. In the film, towards the end, Gibson and Barnes-Wallis are talking and a black dog can be seen running in the background. The film crew were adamant there was no dog on the airfield at the time. Spooky or what?
My concern is solely about the inclusion of a word which is used to insult, deride and belittle people on the basis of their skin colour.
G
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 1,063
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quoting Genghis the Engineer: On the whole, I think you're wrong. If the dog had been called Coaldust, or Snowdrop, it would still be an incredibly poignient story within a broader story of great historical, national, and sentimental significance to any Brit who cares about our history, particularly our aviation history.
Quoting Evanelpus: His name wasn't what he was called, it was nigger! and if this offends anyone, tough!
Maybe I did a disservice to the thread starter when saying that but for the dog's name, he wouldnt be writing the article. I agree with Genghis that the story is a poignant one and I wouldnt advocate writing it out of the story of Guy Gibson & the 'Dambusters' just because of the little fella's name. I definitely don't mean any disrespect to Guy Gibson, who lived in a different era to ours.
However, I feel that some people (as demonstrated by evanelpus) take any opportunity to demonstrate to the world how 'un-PC' they are by insulting people. If hurt feelings are the unintended result of well-meaning frank and free speech, then so be it. Unfortunately though, some people gratuitously use insulting language then try to make themselves out as being on a noble crusade for free speech.
Anyway, what has all this got to do with aviation?
Quoting Evanelpus: His name wasn't what he was called, it was nigger! and if this offends anyone, tough!
Maybe I did a disservice to the thread starter when saying that but for the dog's name, he wouldnt be writing the article. I agree with Genghis that the story is a poignant one and I wouldnt advocate writing it out of the story of Guy Gibson & the 'Dambusters' just because of the little fella's name. I definitely don't mean any disrespect to Guy Gibson, who lived in a different era to ours.
However, I feel that some people (as demonstrated by evanelpus) take any opportunity to demonstrate to the world how 'un-PC' they are by insulting people. If hurt feelings are the unintended result of well-meaning frank and free speech, then so be it. Unfortunately though, some people gratuitously use insulting language then try to make themselves out as being on a noble crusade for free speech.
Anyway, what has all this got to do with aviation?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 67
Posts: 867
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot help but laugh at this nonsense. I would have thought that it is of more importance that over half 617 Squadron aircrew died in this magnificent feat of arms, two of whom were from my home town Sgt John Wilkinson and Flt Lt Bill Astell- God bless them all
Moderator
Even here in our enlightened Antipodean society, we have the same crass stupidity:
'Nigger Brown' stand gone, Coon cheese next on hit-list
Personally, I believe the Government should remove Idiot Pills from the sunsidised pharmaceuticals list!
Found this:
And we accuse other countries of re-writing history.......... 
RAAF Warrant Officer Len Waters (1924 - 1993) flew 95 missions in Kittyhawks during WWII. Len left school in grade seven, became a sheep sheared and enlisted in the RAAF intending to become a driver/mechanic but ended up a pilot.
Len was an Australian Aboriginal. He named his Kittyhawk "Black Magic". I guess some will find that name offensive too?
'Nigger Brown' stand gone, Coon cheese next on hit-list
Personally, I believe the Government should remove Idiot Pills from the sunsidised pharmaceuticals list!
Found this:
In 1999, the British television network ITV broadcast a censored version with each of the twelve utterances of Nigger deleted. Replying to complaints against its censorship, ITV blamed the regional broadcaster, London Weekend Television, which, in turn, blamed a junior employee as the unauthorised censor. In June 2001, when ITV re-broadcast the censored version of The Dam Busters, the Index on Censorship criticised it as “unnecessary and ridiculous” censorship breaking the continuity of the film and the story. Versions of the film edited for US television have the dog's name altered to "Trigger".
The name has caused some controversy with a new remake of The Dam Busters, produced by Peter Jackson. A 2009 newspaper article suggests that the name will be changed to "Nigsy" in the new film.
The name has caused some controversy with a new remake of The Dam Busters, produced by Peter Jackson. A 2009 newspaper article suggests that the name will be changed to "Nigsy" in the new film.
RAAF Warrant Officer Len Waters (1924 - 1993) flew 95 missions in Kittyhawks during WWII. Len left school in grade seven, became a sheep sheared and enlisted in the RAAF intending to become a driver/mechanic but ended up a pilot.
Len was an Australian Aboriginal. He named his Kittyhawk "Black Magic". I guess some will find that name offensive too?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Belfast
Age: 60
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Would that be like the IRA with camouflage paint on their faces in the 70s
Sorry but I don't understand this question. Could you explain exactly what point you are making. I thought we were discussing the use of a word which, whether people care to admit it or not, is used to insult and intimidate black people. I feel that in 2011 its use is not acceptable.
I'm sorry if my opinion offends some members of PPRUNE but I feel strongly about this.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FF2,
You just don't 'get it' do you?
The word is not used to offend coloured people, the word may be used to offend coloured people, indeed I consider you to be offensive yourself by referring to 'coloured' people as 'black' people.
In this thread the word is being used merely to identify the name of an animal, an animal that has it's place in history, I can't change history, can you change history?
You just don't 'get it' do you?
The word is not used to offend coloured people, the word may be used to offend coloured people, indeed I consider you to be offensive yourself by referring to 'coloured' people as 'black' people.
In this thread the word is being used merely to identify the name of an animal, an animal that has it's place in history, I can't change history, can you change history?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I recall reading somewhere that black people find being called 'coloured' is offensive and patronising. Inasmuch that 'coloured' could mean any colour!
The continual drone about the rights and wrongs of W/C Gibson naming his dog nigger and now airbrushing it out, is surely becoming somewhat tiresome. Wasn't there a practise to p!ss on the dog's grave after a night on the lash?
The continual drone about the rights and wrongs of W/C Gibson naming his dog nigger and now airbrushing it out, is surely becoming somewhat tiresome. Wasn't there a practise to p!ss on the dog's grave after a night on the lash?