Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
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It's probably unwise to even begin carping at the new profit-motivated way in which the RAF is now operating, as we could start a whole new thread on that subject. Once upon a time, the RAF would have probably painted XH558 for free in recognition of the aircraft's significance to the service. Now, the accountants will just want to know how much money they can rake-in, and they'll probably want to stick their corporate brand "RAF logo" on it somewhere too! Still, you'd think that after the mess they made of it the last time they painted 558 (I mean, what the hell was that paint scheme supposed to be?) they'd at least offer to rectify things?!
As for Roadster's point, you do have to wonder at the way in which the Vulcan fits into the wider picture. Apart from the fact that the BBMF operates some very unusual BofB types (like the Spitfire 19 and the Lancaster), you could argue that the Vulcan's place in RAF history is no less significant, given that if the Vulcan's role had been a failure, we'd all have been fried many years ago. So, on the basis that the RAF can presumably ill-afford to operate any "show aircraft", one wonders why the MoD still shells-out money for the BBMF when all of their aircraft could be happily operated by civilians. I think the answer is because there's a widespread mentality which assumes that "history" ended in 1945, so we're morally obliged to regard only WWII aircraft as being historically significant. But I digress...
Many years ago, I speculated whether at least one Vulcan could have been retained by the MoD as a trials platform, being available for use in a variety of roles by the (then) RAE whilst still being available for show appearances. It could have been a vaguely cost-effective way of keeping XH558 (and maybe XL426) flying for a good few years. The irony was that just a few years later, David Walton was actively discussing the possibility of selling 558 to Nasa as a potential trials platform, so the idea wasn't as wild as I'd imagined! However, Nasa finally opted to use a Tristar/B-52 for Pegasus launching. Can you imagine - XH558 might have ended-up being painted er... white? Hmm...
As for Roadster's point, you do have to wonder at the way in which the Vulcan fits into the wider picture. Apart from the fact that the BBMF operates some very unusual BofB types (like the Spitfire 19 and the Lancaster), you could argue that the Vulcan's place in RAF history is no less significant, given that if the Vulcan's role had been a failure, we'd all have been fried many years ago. So, on the basis that the RAF can presumably ill-afford to operate any "show aircraft", one wonders why the MoD still shells-out money for the BBMF when all of their aircraft could be happily operated by civilians. I think the answer is because there's a widespread mentality which assumes that "history" ended in 1945, so we're morally obliged to regard only WWII aircraft as being historically significant. But I digress...
Many years ago, I speculated whether at least one Vulcan could have been retained by the MoD as a trials platform, being available for use in a variety of roles by the (then) RAE whilst still being available for show appearances. It could have been a vaguely cost-effective way of keeping XH558 (and maybe XL426) flying for a good few years. The irony was that just a few years later, David Walton was actively discussing the possibility of selling 558 to Nasa as a potential trials platform, so the idea wasn't as wild as I'd imagined! However, Nasa finally opted to use a Tristar/B-52 for Pegasus launching. Can you imagine - XH558 might have ended-up being painted er... white? Hmm...
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Alas, it's not the RAF who paint things at Cranwell anymore. It's Serco. And like many other OEMs they don't do anything for free.
This is a very expensive project and if we care as much as we say we should keep trying to help out!!
Hand is already in my pocket. Have to see her in the air again!!! Too much work has already been done.
SSBS X
This is a very expensive project and if we care as much as we say we should keep trying to help out!!
Hand is already in my pocket. Have to see her in the air again!!! Too much work has already been done.
SSBS X
I agree with SSBS that £3.5K is nothing for painting A Vulcan - and is probably only the material costs - e.g the paint and other treatments used - which cannot be supplied for free as the Company must show its stock movement.
Having been active in getting like-sized aircraft painted, there are no manpower or hangar costings in that sum.
Hands firmly out of my pockets.
Having been active in getting like-sized aircraft painted, there are no manpower or hangar costings in that sum.
Hands firmly out of my pockets.
)
Hellbound
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SSBS
still laughing! Would give em a quid, but in the time it would take to get some money out of Mrs Southbound, British industry will have put the price up again and the little Southbounds won't get any birthday pressies this year....
still laughing! Would give em a quid, but in the time it would take to get some money out of Mrs Southbound, British industry will have put the price up again and the little Southbounds won't get any birthday pressies this year....
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HAMMER OF THE GODS
Was sat in the RAF Club late last night discussing the 558 project with four distinguished Air Marshals, three of whom had close Vulcan connections. A previous AOC 1 Gp was still optimistic but another former Vulcan sqn boss recalled that when he was ACAS in the early 90s, he'd had to pull the plug on the last flying Vulcan because 'the RAF couldn't afford to keep it going.' We should keep that basic truth in mind. I loved flying the tin triangle but I lost a very good mate display flying at Chicago. If the RAF back then, 80,000 strong, with all the spares and workshops and in a pre-PFI/RAB bean counting age, could not afford to keep a single Vulcan flying safely, what price any civilian group 14 years later, no matter how dedicated?
Flatiron, there was also considerable 'fast jet centric' animosity towards anything resembling a real bomber back in the early 90s! The RAF could have kept the aircraft flying in purely monetary terms, but from whose budget would the funding have come? Where would the crews have come from after the Victor had gone?
Yellow-jacket huggy-fluffy H&S
crap has driven up the cost of the project hugely. For example, much of the early funding was eaten up improving 558's hangar to modern engineering standards. Which are infinitely higher than those which prevailed at Scampton when you and I were sharing 35 Sqn cockpits together nearly 30 years ago!
Restoring 558 to flying condition will indeed be hugely expensive. But mustn't be allowed to fail at the eleventh hour. Once the aircraft is flying again, the running costs will be more manageable as 'appearance money' at airshows various will be quantifiable.
Anyway, why not update your fine book(s!) and donate a small element of the royalties to the project. And I hope those dining chums of yours last night had their chequebooks and pens with them as well!
Yellow-jacket huggy-fluffy H&S
crap has driven up the cost of the project hugely. For example, much of the early funding was eaten up improving 558's hangar to modern engineering standards. Which are infinitely higher than those which prevailed at Scampton when you and I were sharing 35 Sqn cockpits together nearly 30 years ago!Restoring 558 to flying condition will indeed be hugely expensive. But mustn't be allowed to fail at the eleventh hour. Once the aircraft is flying again, the running costs will be more manageable as 'appearance money' at airshows various will be quantifiable.
Anyway, why not update your fine book(s!) and donate a small element of the royalties to the project. And I hope those dining chums of yours last night had their chequebooks and pens with them as well!
I found the passage below on another forum:
I think it sums up the whole sorry situation quite well.
YS
I am not surprised by this latest turn of events. I have always been highly sceptical about the viability of the project and nothing would ever induce me to make any commitment to it, financial or other. I always wondered about the nature of the support that the '558 project attracted until I attended the V-Force reunion at Newark a couple of years ago. What struck me was that those most enthusiastic for it had little or no significant commercial aviation experience. The more exposure people had had to the harsh realities of aviation business, the less likely they were to see the project as viable. Why were voices not raised? Quite simply the "enthusiasts" did not want to hear what you said. If you disagreed with them, then you were disloyal. So, most just kept quiet and let them get on with it. Just to establish my credentials to hold an opinion, I did fly the Vulcan; I last flew it in 1972; and I did display it.
YS
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I think it’s time for the nation to step back in and rescue this project now that it’s come so far. To waste the time, dedication, and effort that is gone in so far would be criminal.
The Vulcan stood by this country during the darkest days of the Cold War, and attacked the last enemy ever to try to invade British territory.
She deserves more than a blunties fate now. Never mind Blairforce One, give us back a symbol we can be proud of.
The Vulcan stood by this country during the darkest days of the Cold War, and attacked the last enemy ever to try to invade British territory.
She deserves more than a blunties fate now. Never mind Blairforce One, give us back a symbol we can be proud of.
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G-VLCN, as she will be when flying under civil registration, has been asked to participate in the 25 th Falklands Anniversary tribute in 2007 and other such commemorative events for the future and VTST were excited to accept
How were they planning to get G-VLCN down to the Falklands? Surely that in itself is near impossible?
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I quite agree its possible but with an operating cost of approx £30,000 per hour. landing fee's, parking fee's how likely is it that the RAF or Gov't would play for that!
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Rocket:
BAE does and has done for some time a considerable amount of work, free of charge, to keep some of the UK's aviation heritage flying and is contributing a good level of engineering support to the 558 Vulcan Trust activities.
A number of the UK's historical aircraft, display flying today, are doing so only because of the support fof BAE. The company is a regular sponsor of Red Arrows' tours, a hefty sponsor of Duxford Air Museum and a numbe of other important heritage projects. Whatever your personal views of BAE might be, your criticism in this area is unfounded.
BAE does and has done for some time a considerable amount of work, free of charge, to keep some of the UK's aviation heritage flying and is contributing a good level of engineering support to the 558 Vulcan Trust activities.
A number of the UK's historical aircraft, display flying today, are doing so only because of the support fof BAE. The company is a regular sponsor of Red Arrows' tours, a hefty sponsor of Duxford Air Museum and a numbe of other important heritage projects. Whatever your personal views of BAE might be, your criticism in this area is unfounded.
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backseatjock,
Not in this instance old bean. All personal views aside, BAES consistently quote a given price for a set amount of work and then, just past the point of no return, quote an astronomical figure safe in the knowledge that the customer MUST pay, or lose everything already invested.
Sadly, and to the VOC's detriment, BAES see them as no different. Yes they have done a certain amount of work toward the project at minimal cost, and have pledged ongoing support. However, they still charge princely sums for other work currently ongoing. Just as your local supermarket employs "Loss Leaders" whereby they sell cheap milk to make you buy overpriced teabags.
Sorry if this sounds condescending, but unfortunately have been witness to many similar decisions and policies by our illustrious market leaders
Not in this instance old bean. All personal views aside, BAES consistently quote a given price for a set amount of work and then, just past the point of no return, quote an astronomical figure safe in the knowledge that the customer MUST pay, or lose everything already invested.
Sadly, and to the VOC's detriment, BAES see them as no different. Yes they have done a certain amount of work toward the project at minimal cost, and have pledged ongoing support. However, they still charge princely sums for other work currently ongoing. Just as your local supermarket employs "Loss Leaders" whereby they sell cheap milk to make you buy overpriced teabags.
Sorry if this sounds condescending, but unfortunately have been witness to many similar decisions and policies by our illustrious market leaders
The company is a regular sponsor of Red Arrows' tours,
If they put a little 'sponsorship' money in, little countries will buy the Hawk, and they get their 'sponsorship' money back tenfold in profit.
More bang for your buck
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Fit an exec suite in place of the rear crew seats and use it as Blairforce one
be very impressive for him to arrive at a meeting in
be very impressive for him to arrive at a meeting in
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ZH875: if only aircraft sales and marketing was that simple, my life and that of my colleagues would be so much easier!! Little nations buying Hawk - biggest customer by far is the US - 234 for the US Navy. Going off thread here, but 23 of the world's air forces either own and operate Hawk or train their pilots in Hawks operated by someone else.
Reds' support helps position the product, no question of that because they are great ambassadors, but any sponsorship aint cheap and the sales job does require a bit more that the odd flying display.
Re Vulcan - those wonderful flying displays from days gone by have to be among my favourite childhood air show memories. Maybe Thunder City could be persuaded to chip in (he says lowering his funny cig) - it's great to see Lightning and Buccaneer still doing their thing down in SA!
Reds' support helps position the product, no question of that because they are great ambassadors, but any sponsorship aint cheap and the sales job does require a bit more that the odd flying display.
Re Vulcan - those wonderful flying displays from days gone by have to be among my favourite childhood air show memories. Maybe Thunder City could be persuaded to chip in (he says lowering his funny cig) - it's great to see Lightning and Buccaneer still doing their thing down in SA!
Try Googling the words ' BAE Systems' 'slush' and 'fund' and see how much money 't Bungling Baron Waste o' Space can reportedly afford to throw around as sweeteners and bungs.
A shame that a tiny percentage couldn't be spent on our history instead of.....well, Google and see.
A shame that a tiny percentage couldn't be spent on our history instead of.....well, Google and see.