Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
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Originally Posted by A2QFI
Just went to the bottom of a page, to see who was on line, and Dr Pleming is among us! Profile quoted a "tvoc" website address and that is is about it. He hasn't made any posts (I think) let us hope he is doing some reading!
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
I still think the best route would be to apply direct pressure on HLF to at least finance the project to the stage where the aircraft can be flown out of Bruntingthorpe to Duxford. At least this would give the aircraft a fighting chance of preservation, rather than being left to rot at Bruntingthorpe.
If the project folds, at least a volunteer team may be able to put her back to taxiable status where there is already core teams that look after the Comet, Canberra, Lightnings and of course the Victor.
Why get the HLF to spend cash to fly her one time to Duxford. How is she going to be better preserved at Duxford....they already have a Vulcan, and it's going in the new Airspace hangar. Space is at premium at Duxford, there is no undercover hangar space available big enough for another Vulcan, so how will it be better preserved at Duxford...
This was always another bizarre fault with the original 'plan' for '558 even if they succeed in getting her in the air
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Two points there - firstly, Duxford continually expands the available hangar space therefore it seems reasonable to assume that another exhibition hall might eventually appear, but even if it doesn't, the aircraft certainly needs to be removed from Bruntingthorpe to another location. Or are you suggesting that after nearly 3 million quid's-worth of work, the aircraft should be left to deteriorate in the same way as the Comet, Victor, etc? It won't need to be "put back to taxiable status" - it'll be in that condition already, just like it was when this project started and before so much money was spent on it. Likewise, you also have to consider the continually rising costs of allowing public access to Bruntingthorpe - the way things are going, it'll cost too much to even go in and see the aircraft taxy.
As for runway length - nobody was suggesting that the aircraft be operated from Duxford. This has merely been identified as a final resting place once flying has finished.
As for runway length - nobody was suggesting that the aircraft be operated from Duxford. This has merely been identified as a final resting place once flying has finished.
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Hi guys
It seems like the mood is getting depressive again.
Talk of taxiable aircarft and final resting places at duxford.
Lets be focussed and a little optimistic shall we.
This is not over yet by a long way.
Nigel
It seems like the mood is getting depressive again.
Talk of taxiable aircarft and final resting places at duxford.
Lets be focussed and a little optimistic shall we.
This is not over yet by a long way.
Nigel
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Tim
I'm a supporter. But for the life of me I can't understand why Duxford would want another Vulcan - duplication, space, cost, upkeep etc. Has IWM actually agreed to this?
I'm a supporter. But for the life of me I can't understand why Duxford would want another Vulcan - duplication, space, cost, upkeep etc. Has IWM actually agreed to this?
Last edited by jindabyne; 21st Aug 2006 at 09:01.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
Two points there - firstly, Duxford continually expands the available hangar space therefore it seems reasonable to assume that another exhibition hall might eventually appear.
And you are missing the point, why would they want two Vulcan's when they can't even find a space inside for the last remaining Mk1 Victor, that's been rotting away on the pan for the past 30 odd years.....
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
Or are you suggesting that after nearly 3 million quid's-worth of work, the aircraft should be left to deteriorate in the same way as the Comet, Victor, etc? It won't need to be "put back to taxiable status" - it'll be in that condition already
Only thing will be what happens then, VTTS gets wound up and would she be sold? It's irrelevant how much has been spent on it to date, if there isn't the money left to finish the job?
If it's sold that could mean a volunteer group who could finish the job to a non-signed off state to taxi condition might put a bid in for her, or she'll just get left and wheeled out to deteriorate, or it could even go for scrap......??
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If '558 is made flyable and it's future at Bruntingthorpe is in doubt, the ideal "resting place" for her would be Scampton. HAA already operate ex-military jets there and are in the process of getting a Bucc airworthy. (Also classed as "Complex" by the CAA).
Rather than use Marshalls as the Operating Company, it may be more suitable to use HAA.
Another plus is the use of an Ex-Vulcan base, it would be nice to see her back "at home".
Any thoughts?
Rather than use Marshalls as the Operating Company, it may be more suitable to use HAA.
Another plus is the use of an Ex-Vulcan base, it would be nice to see her back "at home".
Any thoughts?
Originally Posted by ExAvio
If '558 is made flyable and it's future at Bruntingthorpe is in doubt, the ideal "resting place" for her would be Scampton. HAA already operate ex-military jets there and are in the process of getting a Bucc airworthy. (Also classed as "Complex" by the CAA).
Rather than use Marshalls as the Operating Company, it may be more suitable to use HAA.
Another plus is the use of an Ex-Vulcan base, it would be nice to see her back "at home".
Any thoughts?
Rather than use Marshalls as the Operating Company, it may be more suitable to use HAA.
Another plus is the use of an Ex-Vulcan base, it would be nice to see her back "at home".
Any thoughts?
Can't remember if that was ever denied or confirmed.
However, on the other hand if the project does become a dead duck next week, the only way she'll leave Brunty will be in pieces in a load of skips.
Otherwise Brunty will be where she remains in whatever state that may end up being.
Marshall's arn't the operating company, and wouldn't have been, as I understand it they are just the BAe nominated contractor for undertaking the 'major'.
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More points!
First-off, Geeram, you appear to be taking a rather cynical view on this matter just for the sake of it. I didn't say that Duxford was guaranteed to get more internal storage space, just that it was likely when you look at their track record. I don't think it's a perfect resting place any more than you do but what's your alternative? My point (which you seem to have missed) was that 558 needs to be restored to flying condition both in order to establish if any sponsors will finally come forward, and to get the aircraft out of Bruntingthorpe - exactly where to is another matter.
What I was getting-at is that Felicity Irwin is already turning her (and therefore the Trust's) mind towards this final goal which was originally something to be considered many years from now. My worry is that she seems prepared to look at ways in which 558 can be retained in taxiable condition if the flight restoration is not affordable, but yet she evidently fails to appreciate that unless it flies, it will just rot away at Bruntingthorpe. And now that HLF have insisted that their discussions are a private matter, we don't know what she will say to HLF. You'd hope that both Pleming and Irwin will say that even if HLF no longer think the project is viable, they should still provide enough cash to get the aircraft back into the air, for the reasons I've mentioned, but I have to wonder whether Felicitry will say that, based on her comments.
As for HHA and Scampton, I've never heard this idea mentioned before and I would think it very unlikely. First-off, the available hangars will probably soon be occupied by (non-flying) RAF units, and HHA only has the small former-BAe shed which certainly couldn't accommodate a Vulcan. Likewise, the runway is crumbling and requires £7 million to be spent on it - which is why even the Reds may leave before too long. I guess Honington or Wyton might just have sufficient space, as might Marham, now that the Canberras have left.
First-off, Geeram, you appear to be taking a rather cynical view on this matter just for the sake of it. I didn't say that Duxford was guaranteed to get more internal storage space, just that it was likely when you look at their track record. I don't think it's a perfect resting place any more than you do but what's your alternative? My point (which you seem to have missed) was that 558 needs to be restored to flying condition both in order to establish if any sponsors will finally come forward, and to get the aircraft out of Bruntingthorpe - exactly where to is another matter.
What I was getting-at is that Felicity Irwin is already turning her (and therefore the Trust's) mind towards this final goal which was originally something to be considered many years from now. My worry is that she seems prepared to look at ways in which 558 can be retained in taxiable condition if the flight restoration is not affordable, but yet she evidently fails to appreciate that unless it flies, it will just rot away at Bruntingthorpe. And now that HLF have insisted that their discussions are a private matter, we don't know what she will say to HLF. You'd hope that both Pleming and Irwin will say that even if HLF no longer think the project is viable, they should still provide enough cash to get the aircraft back into the air, for the reasons I've mentioned, but I have to wonder whether Felicitry will say that, based on her comments.
As for HHA and Scampton, I've never heard this idea mentioned before and I would think it very unlikely. First-off, the available hangars will probably soon be occupied by (non-flying) RAF units, and HHA only has the small former-BAe shed which certainly couldn't accommodate a Vulcan. Likewise, the runway is crumbling and requires £7 million to be spent on it - which is why even the Reds may leave before too long. I guess Honington or Wyton might just have sufficient space, as might Marham, now that the Canberras have left.
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Quote;
'the aircraft should be left to deteriorate in the same way as the Comet, Victor, etc?'
I take issue with this comment, all the aircraft on site including our two Lightnings are looked after in the best possible way considering they are all outside 12 months a year, with a small band of people caring for them.
Come and see for yourself this coming Sunday just how 'deteriorated' they all are, I can personally vouch for the amount of time and money that is spent on our two Lightnings and I know for a fact many other people are doing their level best on all the other airframes whether they are privately owned like ours or looked after by volunteers.
Why not come over and help us with removing 728's No2 jet pipe to accsess Sol 1 which will solve our reheat snag this coming Autum when the wind is howling across the airfield.
'the aircraft should be left to deteriorate in the same way as the Comet, Victor, etc?'
I take issue with this comment, all the aircraft on site including our two Lightnings are looked after in the best possible way considering they are all outside 12 months a year, with a small band of people caring for them.
Come and see for yourself this coming Sunday just how 'deteriorated' they all are, I can personally vouch for the amount of time and money that is spent on our two Lightnings and I know for a fact many other people are doing their level best on all the other airframes whether they are privately owned like ours or looked after by volunteers.
Why not come over and help us with removing 728's No2 jet pipe to accsess Sol 1 which will solve our reheat snag this coming Autum when the wind is howling across the airfield.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
First-off, Geeram, you appear to be taking a rather cynical view on this matter just for the sake of it.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
I didn't say that Duxford was guaranteed to get more internal storage space, just that it was likely when you look at their track record. I don't think it's a perfect resting place any more than you do but what's your alternative?
IF '558 doesn't fly, which will be a huge shame after all this effort, the UK will have 3 undercover Vulcans in museum's as is, why do we need a 4th. And frankly if a 4th was deserving of being put undercover, it's surely '607 at Waddo, as being arguably the most 'historic' airframe.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
My point (which you seem to have missed) was that 558 needs to be restored to flying condition both in order to establish if any sponsors will finally come forward, and to get the aircraft out of Bruntingthorpe - exactly where to is another matter.
But, to argue, that HLF have to spend cash to just get it to fly, the once only, to get it to Duxford just to preserve her as a static example is ridiculous, especially as she WILL just sit on the pan at Duxford and slowly rot anyway. If you think otherwise, then you do need a reality check. .
Spend that £1m on '607 for goodness sake.
Only collection I can think off that doesn't have a Vulcan, and may have a big enough hangar to keep it in, is possibly the Science Museum collection at Wroughton, but I'm not sure that the hangers at Wroughton are big enough for a Vulcan...??
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
What I was getting at is that Felicity Irwin is already turning her (and therefore the Trust's) mind towards this final goal which was originally something to be considered many years from now. My worry is that she seems prepared to look at ways in which 558 can be retained in taxiable condition if the flight restoration is not affordable, but yet she evidently fails to appreciate that unless it flies, it will just rot away at Bruntingthorpe.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
As for HHA and Scampton, I've never heard this idea mentioned before and I would think it very unlikely. First-off, the available hangars will probably soon be occupied by (non-flying) RAF units, and HHA only has the small former-BAe shed which certainly couldn't accommodate a Vulcan. Likewise, the runway is crumbling and requires £7 million to be spent on it - which is why even the Reds may leave before too long. I guess Honington or Wyton might just have sufficient space, as might Marham, now that the Canberras have left.
That however, was a number of years back, and if as you say the runway at Scampton is that bad, then another base, if she does fly, would be an option. Marham might be an option, depends whether Marshall's move to Wyton or Mildenhall as to that option I guess.
All subjective though if the plug gets pulled next week of course.
Hi,
This is all a bit worrying - and it's only going to get worse in the future as aircraft get more complicated. Can anyone here see a charitable outfit being able to run a Typhoon, in fifty years' time, as a historic aircraft?
I suspect we may not be able to see a Tornado at an airshow in 2060 the same way we can see a Spitfire now.
Phil
This is all a bit worrying - and it's only going to get worse in the future as aircraft get more complicated. Can anyone here see a charitable outfit being able to run a Typhoon, in fifty years' time, as a historic aircraft?
I suspect we may not be able to see a Tornado at an airshow in 2060 the same way we can see a Spitfire now.
Phil
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Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
Honington or Wyton might just have sufficient space, as might Marham, now that the Canberras have left.
As for Wyton, there may well be Hangar space, but I believe the Runway is the same as Scamptons, a mess. Bearing in mind nothing heavy has landed there in a good 10 years. Also there is a distinct lack of Crash Cover.
And to the best of my (somewhat limited) Knowledge Honnington ceased to be a Flying station in the earls 90's when TWCU left. So I'd Imagine that Neither the runway, nor the Taxyways would be in any state to handle a V Bomber. Not sure if there is any Hangar Space at Honningtion either, as it's full of Rockapes.
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Originally Posted by peppermint_jam
There's no space at Marham, Bae now have 4 of the 5 Hangars and the 5th is the paint shop.
As for Wyton, there may well be Hangar space, but I believe the Runway is the same as Scamptons, a mess. Bearing in mind nothing heavy has landed there in a good 10 years. Also there is a distinct lack of Crash Cover.
And to the best of my (somewhat limited) Knowledge Honnington ceased to be a Flying station in the earls 90's when TWCU left. So I'd Imagine that Neither the runway, nor the Taxyways would be in any state to handle a V Bomber. Not sure if there is any Hangar Space at Honningtion either, as it's full of Rockapes.
As for Wyton, there may well be Hangar space, but I believe the Runway is the same as Scamptons, a mess. Bearing in mind nothing heavy has landed there in a good 10 years. Also there is a distinct lack of Crash Cover.
And to the best of my (somewhat limited) Knowledge Honnington ceased to be a Flying station in the earls 90's when TWCU left. So I'd Imagine that Neither the runway, nor the Taxyways would be in any state to handle a V Bomber. Not sure if there is any Hangar Space at Honningtion either, as it's full of Rockapes.
As for Wyton, it looks very likely tht Marshalls will be moving there fairly soon, in which case the runway will have to take heavies again.
As for Honington, I haven't heard anything to suggest that the runway has deteriorated in any way.
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Not at all, just trying to be practical.
Why does there need to be an alternative?
IF '558 doesn't fly, which will be a huge shame after all this effort, the UK will have 3 undercover Vulcans in museum's as is, why do we need a 4th. And frankly if a 4th was deserving of being put undercover, it's surely '607 at Waddo, as being arguably the most 'historic' airframe.
But that's not a practical argument. Why do we need a 4th under cover? Well obviously it would be complete madness to spend nearly 3 million quid restoring 558 to airworthy status and then leave it outside to rot.
As for 607 you're quite right but you can't subsitute one for the other.
Not missed at all. The point I'm trying to make is that, arguing for getting HLF to stump up the cash to get her to fly to Duxford is pointless. If HLF are to stump up the cash to get it to fly, then as Dr.Pleming points out, there is a chance of attracting sponsors to continue to fly her anyway, so the Duxford question is a red herring.
No it's not - Irwin is now actively discussing 558's non-flying options but she fails to address the question of how 558 can be retained in good condition at Bruntingthorpe, therefore it is irrelevant whether the aircraft flies or not in the future - either way HLF should finish the restoration so that even if sponsors don't come forward, it can be removed from Bruntingthorpe before it deteriorates.
But, to argue, that HLF have to spend cash to just get it to fly, the once only, to get it to Duxford just to preserve her as a static example is ridiculous, especially as she WILL just sit on the pan at Duxford and slowly rot anyway. If you think otherwise, then you do need a reality check. .
Spend that £1m on '607 for goodness sake.
That's not an option though, so it's a non-argument. HLF have funded 558 therefore they have to see the project through one way or the other. You can't just go off at a tangent on a completely different subject. And as I've said, it doesn't necessarily have to be Duxford, you're nit-picking - the point is that it needs to get out of Bruntingthorpe while it can - it will have only one opportunity.
Only collection I can think off that doesn't have a Vulcan, and may have a big enough hangar to keep it in, is possibly the Science Museum collection at Wroughton, but I'm not sure that the hangers at Wroughton are big enough for a Vulcan...??
All subjective though if the plug gets pulled next week of course.
Not necessarily - in fact it may well be a good thing if the project does end in a couple of weeks... it's not over just yet!
Why does there need to be an alternative?
IF '558 doesn't fly, which will be a huge shame after all this effort, the UK will have 3 undercover Vulcans in museum's as is, why do we need a 4th. And frankly if a 4th was deserving of being put undercover, it's surely '607 at Waddo, as being arguably the most 'historic' airframe.
But that's not a practical argument. Why do we need a 4th under cover? Well obviously it would be complete madness to spend nearly 3 million quid restoring 558 to airworthy status and then leave it outside to rot.
As for 607 you're quite right but you can't subsitute one for the other.
Not missed at all. The point I'm trying to make is that, arguing for getting HLF to stump up the cash to get her to fly to Duxford is pointless. If HLF are to stump up the cash to get it to fly, then as Dr.Pleming points out, there is a chance of attracting sponsors to continue to fly her anyway, so the Duxford question is a red herring.
No it's not - Irwin is now actively discussing 558's non-flying options but she fails to address the question of how 558 can be retained in good condition at Bruntingthorpe, therefore it is irrelevant whether the aircraft flies or not in the future - either way HLF should finish the restoration so that even if sponsors don't come forward, it can be removed from Bruntingthorpe before it deteriorates.
But, to argue, that HLF have to spend cash to just get it to fly, the once only, to get it to Duxford just to preserve her as a static example is ridiculous, especially as she WILL just sit on the pan at Duxford and slowly rot anyway. If you think otherwise, then you do need a reality check. .
Spend that £1m on '607 for goodness sake.
That's not an option though, so it's a non-argument. HLF have funded 558 therefore they have to see the project through one way or the other. You can't just go off at a tangent on a completely different subject. And as I've said, it doesn't necessarily have to be Duxford, you're nit-picking - the point is that it needs to get out of Bruntingthorpe while it can - it will have only one opportunity.
Only collection I can think off that doesn't have a Vulcan, and may have a big enough hangar to keep it in, is possibly the Science Museum collection at Wroughton, but I'm not sure that the hangers at Wroughton are big enough for a Vulcan...??
All subjective though if the plug gets pulled next week of course.
Not necessarily - in fact it may well be a good thing if the project does end in a couple of weeks... it's not over just yet!
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Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
They must have moved fast then - they had to accommodate Canberras up until two weeks back!
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
As for Wyton, it looks very likely tht Marshalls will be moving there fairly soon, in which case the runway will have to take heavies again.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
As for Honington, I haven't heard anything to suggest that the runway has deteriorated in any way.
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I'm not sure I understand the rush to move '558 away from Bruntingthorpe and the 800 tons of spares and the test/service equipment that goes with it! Where ever it all ends up, someone will want paying for hangar rent and storage space and workshop facilities?
Surely the better bet would be for '558 to stay at Bruntinghtorpe and some sort of deal done with the Waltons for use of the hangar space (if that's really vital in taxi only condition) - once it's not a Marshalls outpost i.e. the 'Major' is finished, they should be able to reclaim some of the floorspace or park cars under the thing like they used to!
The issue come Aug 31st is very probably, the Trust failed and will have to dispose of the airframe according to the contract they signed with HLF and within UK company law, which usually means to an organisation or charity with similar aims - '558 club perhaps (it's still a separate entity to the Trust remember!). As Andy said, the other craft at Bruntingthrope are maintained in good (if not excellent) condition albeit taxiable only by enthusiasts and retired technicians - why shouldn't '558 be the same?
Surely the better bet would be for '558 to stay at Bruntinghtorpe and some sort of deal done with the Waltons for use of the hangar space (if that's really vital in taxi only condition) - once it's not a Marshalls outpost i.e. the 'Major' is finished, they should be able to reclaim some of the floorspace or park cars under the thing like they used to!
The issue come Aug 31st is very probably, the Trust failed and will have to dispose of the airframe according to the contract they signed with HLF and within UK company law, which usually means to an organisation or charity with similar aims - '558 club perhaps (it's still a separate entity to the Trust remember!). As Andy said, the other craft at Bruntingthrope are maintained in good (if not excellent) condition albeit taxiable only by enthusiasts and retired technicians - why shouldn't '558 be the same?