Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
the decoy ECM aircraft during simulated mass bombing attacks
The raid was in two parts. We were on a broad front from Newcastle to the Wash and the V-bombers approached in two parallel lines at flt lvls above FL400. In between the two V flights there were two or three Canberra waves at levels around the high 300. The force numbered around 300 bombers and the waves were just 20 minutes from front to rear. We were in the top stack at Fl 550. Before flight our H2S freqs were measured and the accurate freqs passed to the ADOC for some sophisticated analysis. We ran in with radars at standby so that blew that plan
I don't recall whether we used ECM but I think we did thus giving cover to the Canberras.Just to spice up the day, the 3rd AF followed through with a further mass raid from Great Yarmouth to the Humber with a further 200 aircraft.
I don't know if there were any USAFE fighters involved but I recall that the combined strength of Fighter Command and the FAA, which was deployed forward, was just 199 - Hunters, Sea Vixen, Javelin and Lightning.
I watched part of the fight through the sextant and could see lots of contrails executing stern conversions on the non-evading bombers. At FL 550 we were never engaged.
Thanks again for that PN.
I can only assume that you were detailed to a Javelin rather than a Lightning for interception, otherwise FL550 would have been no defence.
Best regards
TO
I can only assume that you were detailed to a Javelin rather than a Lightning for interception, otherwise FL550 would have been no defence.
Best regards
TO
Last edited by Treble one; 19th Jul 2012 at 17:33.
PN
Whilst you have described this exercise as an air defence exercise, presumably this would have been a good training opportunity for the bomber crews too?
Would you have, for example, practiced a simulated bomb run or other procedures on an exercise such as this?
Best regards
TO
Whilst you have described this exercise as an air defence exercise, presumably this would have been a good training opportunity for the bomber crews too?
Would you have, for example, practiced a simulated bomb run or other procedures on an exercise such as this?
Best regards
TO
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TO, by 1965 the force was a low level strike force so a fighter rules exercise simulating enemy bombers was unrealistic. We did one PPI attack on Norway which was a trick as we were heading east and inside the range where we were not permitted to radiate H2S into Russia. In UK we did on RBS attack but I can't recall whether it was post-exercise of part of it.
Regarding Lightning/Javelin, don't forget the Sea Vixen was a formidable interceptor too and the Hunters were no slouch at high level either. You never know but we might have been allocated SAM. On the other hand with 500 attackers and only 200 defenders and only 2 kills per Sea Vixen/Javelin and 1 kill per Lightning the bomber (or some) would always get through.
Post-flight analysis was fascinating.
A bomber deemed to have been shot down twice meant that the second kill was scrubbed and that 'wasted' missile shot could then be reassigned to that fighter should it have made an additional intercept.
The other trick was calculating what damage a bomber that was not intercepted would have caused and when. If an early attack was deemed successful on a SAM site then all subsequent kills attributed to that SAM site were also annulled. Similarly fighters 'destroyed' before take-off had their kills annulled.
On later exercises I recall one of the first bombers through wiped out North Coates. Of course the problem here is that a target allocated to SAM and then destroyed would not have been allocate to SAM in for real.
On another very early (AM) attack on a Danish airfield at low level we followed a Hunter down the runway. Our attack was complete before the rest got airborne and our Hunter would have been destroyed by our bomb blasts.
Regarding Lightning/Javelin, don't forget the Sea Vixen was a formidable interceptor too and the Hunters were no slouch at high level either. You never know but we might have been allocated SAM. On the other hand with 500 attackers and only 200 defenders and only 2 kills per Sea Vixen/Javelin and 1 kill per Lightning the bomber (or some) would always get through.
Post-flight analysis was fascinating.
A bomber deemed to have been shot down twice meant that the second kill was scrubbed and that 'wasted' missile shot could then be reassigned to that fighter should it have made an additional intercept.
The other trick was calculating what damage a bomber that was not intercepted would have caused and when. If an early attack was deemed successful on a SAM site then all subsequent kills attributed to that SAM site were also annulled. Similarly fighters 'destroyed' before take-off had their kills annulled.
On later exercises I recall one of the first bombers through wiped out North Coates. Of course the problem here is that a target allocated to SAM and then destroyed would not have been allocate to SAM in for real.
On another very early (AM) attack on a Danish airfield at low level we followed a Hunter down the runway. Our attack was complete before the rest got airborne and our Hunter would have been destroyed by our bomb blasts.
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Vulcan ECM
NRU74, I seem to remember that Nick Prager was a Sergeant with BCDU at Finningley when he sold the ECM secrets. As a leader of the 18 Squadron ECM servicing team we shared the same bay with the BCDU team.
Happy Birthday
Happy 60th birthday, Queen of the skies!
In commemoration of the maiden flight of the first full-scale Avro Vulcan prototype Type 698, VX 770, piloted solo by Roly Falk on 30th August 1952.
In commemoration of the maiden flight of the first full-scale Avro Vulcan prototype Type 698, VX 770, piloted solo by Roly Falk on 30th August 1952.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Above FL 450
Reminded by the Vickers Funbus thread.
In the US we were forbidden from telling the US controllers if we were flying above FL 450; strangely no such limitation applied in UK.
As we entered US airspace from Canada we were instructed to descend and maintain FL 310. Now we never really flew that low and had no idea of the fuel burn down there. (In fact it was probably better) So the skipper, worried we would be low on fuel at destination requested higher.
"Roger Sir, you are cleared FL 510."
Mmmm, what now? Only one answer really.
"Roger, climbing" I think we still declined to confirm we were at a level above 450
Another occasion, I am told, Socttish was warning aircraft that Benbecula was active to 50,000ft. Rather bored Shack crew acknowledge and revised their ETA Kinloss by a couple of hours. Next Scottish warned a homebound Vulcan en route from Goose. "Roger, climbing."
In the US we were forbidden from telling the US controllers if we were flying above FL 450; strangely no such limitation applied in UK.
As we entered US airspace from Canada we were instructed to descend and maintain FL 310. Now we never really flew that low and had no idea of the fuel burn down there. (In fact it was probably better) So the skipper, worried we would be low on fuel at destination requested higher.
"Roger Sir, you are cleared FL 510."
Mmmm, what now? Only one answer really.
"Roger, climbing" I think we still declined to confirm we were at a level above 450
Another occasion, I am told, Socttish was warning aircraft that Benbecula was active to 50,000ft. Rather bored Shack crew acknowledge and revised their ETA Kinloss by a couple of hours. Next Scottish warned a homebound Vulcan en route from Goose. "Roger, climbing."
Operation Skyshield
PN, (or any other Vulcan crew on this thread), did you take part in Operation Skyshield I or II , as I'd be interested in any details (routes, evasion strategies, ECM) that would be allowable in the public domain.
Many thanks
TO
Many thanks
TO
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Treble One, before my time. However there was something on here a little while back.
I believe they departed Goose, went high level which was probably below FL500, then broad front due south through the radar defence line. The earlier chat named the probable line, I had thought it was the Dew Line but I was corrected and told it was the Pine Tree IIRC.
The tactics at the time would have been for high, fast, and minimal dog-leg evasion, say a track change every 150-200 miles (pure guess). I would guess horizontal separation of 20-30 miles and all permitted jammers on.
If they then attacked the RBSU and Nike sites they may have executed the 2A evasive bomb runs about 45 miles out from the targets.
For high level routing Bomber Command would have planned all the routes, timing and deconfliction. Based on the Malta Adexes just a few years later (no ECM) they were pretty sneaky with cross-over tracks to disrupt track correlation, turn-back race tracks to draw fighters out and burn off the fighter fuel etc.
That was a known tactic. To quote a US DoD report on the Mig 21 - one 360 orbit, thrown sufficiently far out, will be enough to abort the average Mig 21 intercept.
I believe they departed Goose, went high level which was probably below FL500, then broad front due south through the radar defence line. The earlier chat named the probable line, I had thought it was the Dew Line but I was corrected and told it was the Pine Tree IIRC.
The tactics at the time would have been for high, fast, and minimal dog-leg evasion, say a track change every 150-200 miles (pure guess). I would guess horizontal separation of 20-30 miles and all permitted jammers on.
If they then attacked the RBSU and Nike sites they may have executed the 2A evasive bomb runs about 45 miles out from the targets.
For high level routing Bomber Command would have planned all the routes, timing and deconfliction. Based on the Malta Adexes just a few years later (no ECM) they were pretty sneaky with cross-over tracks to disrupt track correlation, turn-back race tracks to draw fighters out and burn off the fighter fuel etc.
That was a known tactic. To quote a US DoD report on the Mig 21 - one 360 orbit, thrown sufficiently far out, will be enough to abort the average Mig 21 intercept.
Thank you PN for your insight.
I believe that Vulcans were launched from both Scotland and Bermuda for at least one Skyshield. I bet that those who got the Bermuda detatchment were the happier at that.
It is kind of hard to think that the,admittedly sophisticated at the time, Vulcan ECM suite, plus evasion and other tactics was capable of defeating the entire North American ADS. It must have been a hell of a ride for the crews involved as well. Just casually creeping in, dropping their simulated weapons, and then casually calling in and asking for permission to land.
The Vulcan was really some piece of kit in its day-its a pity it wasn't upgraded to B3 as originally planned, as that would have been some aircraft. May be still going now?
As a matter of interest PN, how do you think the V Force would have taken to flying Airborne Alert as their cousins in SAC did? Was their a different mentality required for AA compared to QRA or would the absolute professionalism of the crews just meant that they would have adapted whatever the scenario?
Regards
TO
I believe that Vulcans were launched from both Scotland and Bermuda for at least one Skyshield. I bet that those who got the Bermuda detatchment were the happier at that.
It is kind of hard to think that the,admittedly sophisticated at the time, Vulcan ECM suite, plus evasion and other tactics was capable of defeating the entire North American ADS. It must have been a hell of a ride for the crews involved as well. Just casually creeping in, dropping their simulated weapons, and then casually calling in and asking for permission to land.
The Vulcan was really some piece of kit in its day-its a pity it wasn't upgraded to B3 as originally planned, as that would have been some aircraft. May be still going now?
As a matter of interest PN, how do you think the V Force would have taken to flying Airborne Alert as their cousins in SAC did? Was their a different mentality required for AA compared to QRA or would the absolute professionalism of the crews just meant that they would have adapted whatever the scenario?
Regards
TO
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As a matter of interest PN, how do you think the V Force would have taken to flying Airborne Alert as their cousins in SAC did? Was their a different mentality required for AA compared to QRA or would the absolute professionalism of the crews just meant that they would have adapted whatever the scenario?
It was trials at Waddington around '63-'64 IIRC. The effort required to maintain one aircraft on orbit over the North Sea was unaffordable. We simply did not have the tanker assets for a start. The aircraft would have been about one hour out from UK therefore it would have had about 5 hours fuel at the start. To reach its QRA target and recover would take about 3 hours (rough ball parks) so it would have had 2 hours fuel in hand thus needing to be refuelled at that point with 3 hours worth of fuel.
After a further 3 hours it would have been airborne for 6 hours. One more refuel and recover would take it to around 10 hours so crew fatigue would have been a factor at that point so one bracket was probably all that could be assumed realistically. Then there is the tanker effort too.
Rather than the SAC continuous airborne alert it was trialled as a war time measure but again still too expensive.
Thats very interesting PN, I was not aware that there were any AA trials even. I must look and read harder in future.
Interesting that both expense and unsurprisingly crew fatigue were major factors in this never happening.
AA Vulcans were meant to be Skybolt carriers. I know Skybolt and other stand off weapons had their programmes cancelled-would the benefit of Skybolt over Blue Steel and Yellow Sun (massive increased stand off capability) have made any difference to this equation, do you think?
With this sort of stand off range, at least some Q targets could have been destroyed without the need to penetrate Soviet/WP Air Defence, meaning less attrition in airframes and more targets destroyed? Or was the lack of tanker assets the rate limiting step anyway?
Cheers
TO
Interesting that both expense and unsurprisingly crew fatigue were major factors in this never happening.
AA Vulcans were meant to be Skybolt carriers. I know Skybolt and other stand off weapons had their programmes cancelled-would the benefit of Skybolt over Blue Steel and Yellow Sun (massive increased stand off capability) have made any difference to this equation, do you think?
With this sort of stand off range, at least some Q targets could have been destroyed without the need to penetrate Soviet/WP Air Defence, meaning less attrition in airframes and more targets destroyed? Or was the lack of tanker assets the rate limiting step anyway?
Cheers
TO
'Inside Out'
I watched the insert in this programme last night, commemorating the 50th Anniversary of the Cuban Crisis.
Much to my surprise, there was talk of AC3 being reached. I thought AC3 was essentially a launch to bomb your targets, save for a positive control message at the start line somewhere to the West of Norway? I obviously stand corrected.
Having discussed the AC states with PN and others earlier in the thread, and from reading about the subject, I understood that MacMillan didn't disperse the V Force at AC2 as it would have sent out a bad political signal to Kruschev (i.e attack imminent) which may have meant a pre-emptive Soviet first strike.
So whilst I see the point of having aircraft loaded with live weapons, on a very high state of alert (I have read accounts of RS5 and less, some bombers were crewed and with engines running), the lack of disperal made the force incredibly vulnerable.
I guess the PM was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Follow procedures by the book (disperse) and risk a pre-emptive first strike, or leave the V-Force loaded and ready to go at a high readiness state (although massively vulnerable to the said first strike).
I guess the chosen option was the lesser of the two evils, and would have allowed, with the Thor squadrons, a degree of retaliation if a launch had been detected (I understand a 4 bomber Q scramble would take less than 2 minutes from engines on to final wheels off).
If anyone is interested, Inside out is being repeated next Monday on another local BBC1 channel (if you consult your sky guide I believe the regional channels are in the 960's).
Much to my surprise, there was talk of AC3 being reached. I thought AC3 was essentially a launch to bomb your targets, save for a positive control message at the start line somewhere to the West of Norway? I obviously stand corrected.
Having discussed the AC states with PN and others earlier in the thread, and from reading about the subject, I understood that MacMillan didn't disperse the V Force at AC2 as it would have sent out a bad political signal to Kruschev (i.e attack imminent) which may have meant a pre-emptive Soviet first strike.
So whilst I see the point of having aircraft loaded with live weapons, on a very high state of alert (I have read accounts of RS5 and less, some bombers were crewed and with engines running), the lack of disperal made the force incredibly vulnerable.
I guess the PM was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Follow procedures by the book (disperse) and risk a pre-emptive first strike, or leave the V-Force loaded and ready to go at a high readiness state (although massively vulnerable to the said first strike).
I guess the chosen option was the lesser of the two evils, and would have allowed, with the Thor squadrons, a degree of retaliation if a launch had been detected (I understand a 4 bomber Q scramble would take less than 2 minutes from engines on to final wheels off).
If anyone is interested, Inside out is being repeated next Monday on another local BBC1 channel (if you consult your sky guide I believe the regional channels are in the 960's).
Last edited by Treble one; 16th Oct 2012 at 11:51.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Alcon 3 and Alcon 2 were not in a strict interpretation progressions between 4 and 1.
The standing alert was alcon 4 - one aircraft per sqn loaded, fuelled and at RS15 on main base.
When a recall was sounded one had no idea on whether it would be for alcon 3 or alcon 2. The reason was that alcon 3 had aircraft fully fuelled and thus overweight for landing at disperal airfields; weapons were also armed. On the other hand alcon 2 had aircraft fuelled to a lower level for landing at dispersals and weapons were not armed.
Now the Vulcan (I don't know about the Victor) was cleared to land at maximum all up weight. If a heavyweight landing, over 140,000lbs, then additional heavy landing checks would be required. The Victor could dump fuel whereas the Vulcan could not.
However, with 20-20 hindsight it would have been possible to bring the aircraft to alcon 3 and then order alcon 1 - with aircraft dispersing and landing overweight and ignoring any overweight landing checks. This was never, to my knowledge, considered as an option.
You should also remember that all the bomber main bases were inside the Bloodhound kill box and thus less vulnerable to a bomber threat than if they were dispersed.
The standing alert was alcon 4 - one aircraft per sqn loaded, fuelled and at RS15 on main base.
When a recall was sounded one had no idea on whether it would be for alcon 3 or alcon 2. The reason was that alcon 3 had aircraft fully fuelled and thus overweight for landing at disperal airfields; weapons were also armed. On the other hand alcon 2 had aircraft fuelled to a lower level for landing at dispersals and weapons were not armed.
Now the Vulcan (I don't know about the Victor) was cleared to land at maximum all up weight. If a heavyweight landing, over 140,000lbs, then additional heavy landing checks would be required. The Victor could dump fuel whereas the Vulcan could not.
However, with 20-20 hindsight it would have been possible to bring the aircraft to alcon 3 and then order alcon 1 - with aircraft dispersing and landing overweight and ignoring any overweight landing checks. This was never, to my knowledge, considered as an option.
You should also remember that all the bomber main bases were inside the Bloodhound kill box and thus less vulnerable to a bomber threat than if they were dispersed.
Some good shots there sisemen.
These are probably the last photographs of XL444. taken on the scrapping area at Waddington.
The proud merchants of death pose in front of XL444
These are probably the last photographs of XL444. taken on the scrapping area at Waddington.
The proud merchants of death pose in front of XL444
Cunning Artificer
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The proper colour scheme. Thats how I'll always remember them, Sisemen.
Including the most unwieldy towing arm ever contrived by man.
Including the most unwieldy towing arm ever contrived by man.