Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Red Steer 2 was actually a modifiaction of the Lightning radar, AI21?. The AI21 had a conical capability of +/- 60 deg. As the Vulcan was not intended to such extreme manouevres the Red Steer sweep was different. It was +/-70 deg horizontally and +/- 20 deg vertically. By and large it meant that it could remain locked on or detect slight better than the AI21.
The rapid scan mode was slightly different. When it was anticipated that the fighter was in the launch bracket the radar could be switched to narrow scan +/- 5 deg. In this mode it could detect an AAM separation from the launch aircraft and fire the appropriate decoys - IR or chaff.
Remembering that this was 40 years ago this is pretty advanced technology.
However, on one exercise, I remember looking at the RS display. It looked like the B17 war films with the 'sky' full of contacts ie out to 20 miles. The AEO had to look for contacts sliding in to the 'static' targets which would be the interceptors doing stern arc conversions. Of course once in behind another target they would be same-way same-day and potentially unnoticed by other AEOs.
The rapid scan mode was slightly different. When it was anticipated that the fighter was in the launch bracket the radar could be switched to narrow scan +/- 5 deg. In this mode it could detect an AAM separation from the launch aircraft and fire the appropriate decoys - IR or chaff.
Remembering that this was 40 years ago this is pretty advanced technology.
However, on one exercise, I remember looking at the RS display. It looked like the B17 war films with the 'sky' full of contacts ie out to 20 miles. The AEO had to look for contacts sliding in to the 'static' targets which would be the interceptors doing stern arc conversions. Of course once in behind another target they would be same-way same-day and potentially unnoticed by other AEOs.
Thread Starter
Are you sure it was ex-Lightning radar? As far as I'm aware, the Ferranti AIRPASS AI-23 was only fitted to the lightning; Red Steer was from an earlier generation of radar systems. We were told it came out of old Meteor night fighters, but I don't know whether that was true.
Can't recall the difference between Red Steer 1 and 2. Was Red Steer 1 based on the old AI-20 and Red Steer 2 the ex-Meat Box kit?
Can't recall the difference between Red Steer 1 and 2. Was Red Steer 1 based on the old AI-20 and Red Steer 2 the ex-Meat Box kit?
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Red Steer Mk II Control/Indicator at AEO's position. Orange screen. The Mk I was a circular green screen, certainly early fifties vintage! Probably the least effective bit of electronics kit on the whole aircraft.
Barry Masefield AEO. From 'Vulcan', Duncan Cubitt and Ken Ellis.
Barry Masefield AEO. From 'Vulcan', Duncan Cubitt and Ken Ellis.
Last edited by forget; 22nd Oct 2006 at 11:40. Reason: Changed picture.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The TFR was a UOR buy in from General Dynamics from the F111 programme. The narrow look angle was necessary for the F111 to avoid it being given unnecessary flyup commands if it flew down a valley.
I am not sure about provision for the TSR2. It navigation radar was a side-scan system which would be used to update the nav-attack system after the fix point had been passed. I suspect that terrain avoidance was planned on a mission basis and not a dynamic process. Given that it was planned for weapons release down at 50 feet and mach 1.2 you would have thought it would have needed some form of forward looking system - FLIR based perhaps?
I am not sure about provision for the TSR2. It navigation radar was a side-scan system which would be used to update the nav-attack system after the fix point had been passed. I suspect that terrain avoidance was planned on a mission basis and not a dynamic process. Given that it was planned for weapons release down at 50 feet and mach 1.2 you would have thought it would have needed some form of forward looking system - FLIR based perhaps?
TSR2 did have TFR, incidentally.
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a Beaut of a State
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Milt - the reply given by forget is spot on. To see a Red Steer installation on static test whizzing around like a demented mad thing was a sight to behold.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Are you sure it was ex-Lightning radar? As far as I'm aware, the Ferranti AIRPASS AI-23 was only fitted to the lightning; Red Steer was from an earlier generation of radar systems. We were told it came out of old Meteor night fighters, but I don't know whether that was true.
Can't recall the difference between Red Steer 1 and 2. Was Red Steer 1 based on the old AI-20 and Red Steer 2 the ex-Meat Box kit?
Can't recall the difference between Red Steer 1 and 2. Was Red Steer 1 based on the old AI-20 and Red Steer 2 the ex-Meat Box kit?
The Red Steer 1, OTOH, was diabolical and only understandable by AEOs. It used a conical scan technique with display centre being, if I guess correctly, max range and target being displayed in azimuth and elevation displayed as departure from the centre. Min range was at the edge. It was unstabilised. A contact left, high, range 5, would be displayed at 10 o'clock, an inch or so from the centre, provided the aircraft was S&L.
The first ground return would appear at 6 o'clock and aircraft height. As the time base ran out so the ground return would sweep out left and right and as it increased in range so it would sweep in to the centre of the display.
OTOH my description may be arse about face as the only thing I ever recognised was the ground.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
‘Interesting’ snippet at
http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/radar.htm
Green Willow. AI.20 X-band AI radar for single seat fighters. Limited capability. Developed as a back up for AI.23. Abandoned due to success of AI.23. Re-emerged as Red Steer. Used X-band.
Also, http://www.vectorsite.net/avvulcan_1.html
ARI 5919 Red Steer tail-warning radar, derived from the radar used on Meteor night-fighters.
Last edited by forget; 22nd Oct 2006 at 13:05. Reason: Added
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Some more mods I remember:
Before Green Satin 2 was changed to D72M, we had the Green Satin Mk 1. The old, fixed, rear crew seats originally had Mk 20 (IIRC) parachutes with an agonising back pad (15% disability thank you Mr Irvine) and these were replaced with an easier to use Mk 46 before the swivel seat came in.
The rearcrew services were also provided through an MSC - multi-services connector. With the advent of the swivel seat this was replaced with a much sexier SSC or swivel seat connector. This meant however that we lost the g-suit connection and the AVS was connected separately.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Although TSR2 was cancelled in 1965 (?) there were cells at Bomber Command, what would now be IPT I guess, looking at TSR2 and F111. There was intense partisanship between the two cells and, AFAIK, no meeting of minds. Whichever cell you were in had the best aircraft for the job.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSR2's TFR.
http://www.ausairpower.net/Profile-BAC-TSR.2.html
The TSR.2 employed a dual channel Terrain Following Radar (TFR) conceptually similar to that in the F-111. The TSR.2 system employed a Ferranti monopulse TFR, which fed the dual channel Elliot Automation autopilot/TF computer with terrain profile measurements ahead of the aircraft. A pair of STC radar altimeters complemented the TFR. The system provided not only automated vertical clearance down to 200 ft AGL, but also provided for automatic routing around obstacles. The terrain clearance data was also provided to the pilot as cues on his Rank-Cintel Head Up Display (HUD). Both crewmembers had moving map displays, in addition the navigator had a large radar scope. It was intended that the pilot's station be fitted with three digital cockpit displays (MFDs) in production aircraft. It was intended that the pilot's workload be minimised, to this effect a fully automatic fuel management system was fitted to balance the aircraft's CoG.
http://www.ausairpower.net/Profile-BAC-TSR.2.html
The TSR.2 employed a dual channel Terrain Following Radar (TFR) conceptually similar to that in the F-111. The TSR.2 system employed a Ferranti monopulse TFR, which fed the dual channel Elliot Automation autopilot/TF computer with terrain profile measurements ahead of the aircraft. A pair of STC radar altimeters complemented the TFR. The system provided not only automated vertical clearance down to 200 ft AGL, but also provided for automatic routing around obstacles. The terrain clearance data was also provided to the pilot as cues on his Rank-Cintel Head Up Display (HUD). Both crewmembers had moving map displays, in addition the navigator had a large radar scope. It was intended that the pilot's station be fitted with three digital cockpit displays (MFDs) in production aircraft. It was intended that the pilot's workload be minimised, to this effect a fully automatic fuel management system was fitted to balance the aircraft's CoG.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The US of A - sort of
Posts: 33 I got banned for starting a thread called w@nking.
-----------------
Get back to doing what you're good at
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The US of A - sort of
Posts: 33 I got banned for starting a thread called w@nking.
-----------------
Get back to doing what you're good at
IIRC, Red Steer 2 had a lot in common with the Ekco(sp?) 190 CCWR. I believe that the display units were very similar as was the scanner but there must have been differences in the transmission characteristics. No doubt the truth is out there on Google.
Did anyone actually get to press the "Red Steer Action Button"?, guarded button top right on the control unit.
YS
Did anyone actually get to press the "Red Steer Action Button"?, guarded button top right on the control unit.
YS
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ah, I did not recall the action button but I was no doubt for use when a missile launch was detected. Rather than have eyes on the RS2, see th elaunch, then try and press the right buttons on the X-band jammer and the IRD, RBW, press the action button and get the lot.
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a Beaut of a State
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always thought that if the scanner actually picked up a hostile within lethal range the 'action' switch illuminated the "ABANDON AIRCRAFT" warning panel 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TSR2's TFR.
http://www.ausairpower.net/Profile-BAC-TSR.2.html
The TSR.2 employed a dual channel Terrain Following Radar (TFR) conceptually similar to that in the F-111. The TSR.2 system employed a Ferranti monopulse TFR, .....
http://www.ausairpower.net/Profile-BAC-TSR.2.html
The TSR.2 employed a dual channel Terrain Following Radar (TFR) conceptually similar to that in the F-111. The TSR.2 system employed a Ferranti monopulse TFR, .....
TFR Pod
Must have been the most unreliable bit of kit ever fitted to an aircraft. At Akrotiri every trade was an expert on TFR pod changes, lucky to survive a single trip. It has a nasty design fault, the ram air cooling fed air from the outside straight over the electronics. Pass though a nice bit of wet weather and it played havoc with the internals. Many a time have seen a TFR pod tipped on end to get the "excess moisture" out. As I recall no-one really trusted it anyway, always a flown with a good lookout.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Heading Reference System was, I believe, another spin off.
The HRS used two Master Reference Gyros, MRG, that were used in the F6 to give attitude information and translated in the Vulcan to give azimuth information. The accuracy was IRO 0.25 deg per hour and well up with conventional INs of the time and a lot better than some, like the Nimrod.
I believe components of the HRS were part of the Blue Steel guidance package whose IN only had to run free for a few minutes. I think that was the basis of the IN package for the Nimrod.
What goes round goes round.
The HRS used two Master Reference Gyros, MRG, that were used in the F6 to give attitude information and translated in the Vulcan to give azimuth information. The accuracy was IRO 0.25 deg per hour and well up with conventional INs of the time and a lot better than some, like the Nimrod.
I believe components of the HRS were part of the Blue Steel guidance package whose IN only had to run free for a few minutes. I think that was the basis of the IN package for the Nimrod.
What goes round goes round.