Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
Nimrod INS
I believe components of the HRS were part of the Blue Steel guidance package whose IN only had to run free for a few minutes. I think that was the basis of the IN package for the Nimrod.
YS
Last edited by Yellow Sun; 23rd Oct 2006 at 15:19.
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a Beaut of a State
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would be fascinating to see how a Vulcan B2 (or even a Victor B2) would have operated with today's electronics and weaponry whizz bangs. Would it have been better than the kit that is being flown today (or even tomorrow)?
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That same sentiment was mentioned often for the Buccaneer and, in a different way, Phantom.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I reckon it would have made a first rate interceptor. Rotary launcher in the bpmbbay with Phoenix or whatever.
Where the Vulcan lacked speed against the F3 it more than made up for it in its ability to fly high. The F3 aimed to use missiles to take out the height gap but no one explained how to do a VID at 50k. True many aircraft could outrun the Vulcan but not for long in the UKADR.
Where the Vulcan lacked speed against the F3 it more than made up for it in its ability to fly high. The F3 aimed to use missiles to take out the height gap but no one explained how to do a VID at 50k. True many aircraft could outrun the Vulcan but not for long in the UKADR.
Thread Starter
If the last operational Vulcan flight was in Mar 1984 and the Tornado F3 didn't enter service until Nov 1985, how would the Vulcan/F3 assessment have been conducted....?
The F2 was a dog - underpowered and only capable of meeting the spec if it left 2 'winders off.
Or did you mean Lightning F3? We did a fair number of Warton 'F3 trials' AAR support sorties involving a Lightning and a Torndao - it was often tempting to ask which was fighter and which was target!
The 18228 would not have picked up the F3 radar in most modes until the missile was well on its way. The so-called ability of a Vulcan to defeat a fighter was true ONLY if the fighter was stupid enough to lock early or to try to turn in a high level dog fight. High speed snap up attacks would probably never have been noticed by the Vulcan.
Mind you, with a little knowledge it was often possible to defeat a F3 during 'high flyer' exercises in the Malvinas.....
The F2 was a dog - underpowered and only capable of meeting the spec if it left 2 'winders off.
Or did you mean Lightning F3? We did a fair number of Warton 'F3 trials' AAR support sorties involving a Lightning and a Torndao - it was often tempting to ask which was fighter and which was target!
The 18228 would not have picked up the F3 radar in most modes until the missile was well on its way. The so-called ability of a Vulcan to defeat a fighter was true ONLY if the fighter was stupid enough to lock early or to try to turn in a high level dog fight. High speed snap up attacks would probably never have been noticed by the Vulcan.
Mind you, with a little knowledge it was often possible to defeat a F3 during 'high flyer' exercises in the Malvinas.....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
No BEags, simply a what if.
We knew the F2 was coming in but the capability could have been developed in the airframe as the role shifted to the Tornado. The plot was clearly to field a superb interceptor in the guise of the F2; its short comings were, apparently, not obvious then. In other words my suggestion is also made with hindsight.
As for the Lightning it was an interceptor of a different ilk. The F3/6 could hold a ground alert against a free-fall bomber whereas the F3 really needed to intercept at long range against a missile carrier. The Vulcan could not have replaced a Lightning in th eformer role but could have been very effective in the latter.
It could also have been a fine airframe for Dale Brown to get his hands on - a load of Paveway, MRAAM, SRAAM and ARM, coul dhave completed the suite.
We knew the F2 was coming in but the capability could have been developed in the airframe as the role shifted to the Tornado. The plot was clearly to field a superb interceptor in the guise of the F2; its short comings were, apparently, not obvious then. In other words my suggestion is also made with hindsight.
As for the Lightning it was an interceptor of a different ilk. The F3/6 could hold a ground alert against a free-fall bomber whereas the F3 really needed to intercept at long range against a missile carrier. The Vulcan could not have replaced a Lightning in th eformer role but could have been very effective in the latter.
It could also have been a fine airframe for Dale Brown to get his hands on - a load of Paveway, MRAAM, SRAAM and ARM, coul dhave completed the suite.
Thread Starter
Initial target acquisition of an inbound ASM carrier pre-launch in sufficient time would have been extremely difficult. First the target detection by UKADGE, then the comms link to pass information to the 'Vulcan fighter'. Then the manoeuvring required to achieve the head sector launch of a SA missile... It was difficult enough to achieve the geometry in the Phantom, achieving a 180 x 0 in the much slower Vulcan would have been immensely unlikely unless it just happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
However, decent BNS updates and a self-designating TIALD capability could have made GW1 Euphrates bridge-plinking from 40000ft a distinct possibility - one Vulcan or 3 Tornados, 1 Buccaneer and 2 VC10s?
However, decent BNS updates and a self-designating TIALD capability could have made GW1 Euphrates bridge-plinking from 40000ft a distinct possibility - one Vulcan or 3 Tornados, 1 Buccaneer and 2 VC10s?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ah, but who mentioned UKADGE?
Had more in mind in the Norwegian Sea well north of UKADGE. Remember the E3 was around in the 70s. Again a long range AAM would have made a big difference. True the BVR issue but could not be too many friendly 4-ships heading south over the ocean.
Taking the Vulcan argument, we thought the same of the Canberra in the 60s. First rate airframe practically undeveloped whereas the USAF was doing route and branch updates on a whole variety of aircraft. We looked with envy as they went from B52C all the way to the G and the H.
Unfortunately, or not, our money went to Polaris and retained only a moderate pitchfork against the US triad.
Had more in mind in the Norwegian Sea well north of UKADGE. Remember the E3 was around in the 70s. Again a long range AAM would have made a big difference. True the BVR issue but could not be too many friendly 4-ships heading south over the ocean.
Taking the Vulcan argument, we thought the same of the Canberra in the 60s. First rate airframe practically undeveloped whereas the USAF was doing route and branch updates on a whole variety of aircraft. We looked with envy as they went from B52C all the way to the G and the H.
Unfortunately, or not, our money went to Polaris and retained only a moderate pitchfork against the US triad.
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a Beaut of a State
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Beags says....the Vulcan might have made a significant contribution to stand off attacks during GW1. Makes for interesting speculation - never even considered it as a 'sentry' within UKADGE.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did I fly a Vulcan? No, but I did sit in one yesterday morning.
I called into the Midlands Aircraft Museum yesterday on the way home from visiting my son at university. If you have never been there I strongly recommend a visit! Malcolm, who frequents this site and is one of the staff there, very kindly opened up the cockpit to the Vulcan XL360 and gave me a tour all on my own. He gave me a lot of his time and we talked a great deal about that wonderful aircraft. A very big thank you to you Malcolm, both for the tour and for letting me take so many pictures.
Adrian
I called into the Midlands Aircraft Museum yesterday on the way home from visiting my son at university. If you have never been there I strongly recommend a visit! Malcolm, who frequents this site and is one of the staff there, very kindly opened up the cockpit to the Vulcan XL360 and gave me a tour all on my own. He gave me a lot of his time and we talked a great deal about that wonderful aircraft. A very big thank you to you Malcolm, both for the tour and for letting me take so many pictures.
Adrian
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: France
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
XH535 - Crashed May 11th, 1964
I came across this site by accident but have a couple of comments regarding the crash of Vulcan XH535.
My father (Jack Dingley) was Navigator on board the XH535 ... the crash happened on Whit Monday and he actually replaced a friend of his who wanted to spend the Bankholiday away with his family ...
You list that the reason for the crash was "unknown" - in fact the reason given to my mother by the Group Captain who came to the house to give her the news was as follows:-
The aircraft took off from RAF Boscombe Down to conduct a series of tests which they completed successfully, however, the Pilot (a guy from Avro or Hawker Siddley - i don't remember exactly) was due to make further tests the following day and decided to include one (or some) of these tests on the 11th May instead.
One of these tests was to perform a low-fly low-speed test over the Downs approx 10 miles NW of the base. During this test the engines stalled and they were not high enough to enable a restart .... as a result the Vulcan "bellyflopped" and all but the 2 pilots survived (they ejected at low altitude) and the RAF co-pilot was severely disabled and was / is wheelchair bound for life.
If this helps great ..
As a sequel both my brother and I wanted to join the RAF but .... we both wore glasses - and in those days only groundstaff positions were offered so we persued other paths.
Jack Dingleys' widow (Lucienne) my mother, still lives in the UK (at Southampton) and I have been living here in the Cannes area of France for several years.
My father (Jack Dingley) was Navigator on board the XH535 ... the crash happened on Whit Monday and he actually replaced a friend of his who wanted to spend the Bankholiday away with his family ...
You list that the reason for the crash was "unknown" - in fact the reason given to my mother by the Group Captain who came to the house to give her the news was as follows:-
The aircraft took off from RAF Boscombe Down to conduct a series of tests which they completed successfully, however, the Pilot (a guy from Avro or Hawker Siddley - i don't remember exactly) was due to make further tests the following day and decided to include one (or some) of these tests on the 11th May instead.
One of these tests was to perform a low-fly low-speed test over the Downs approx 10 miles NW of the base. During this test the engines stalled and they were not high enough to enable a restart .... as a result the Vulcan "bellyflopped" and all but the 2 pilots survived (they ejected at low altitude) and the RAF co-pilot was severely disabled and was / is wheelchair bound for life.
If this helps great ..
As a sequel both my brother and I wanted to join the RAF but .... we both wore glasses - and in those days only groundstaff positions were offered so we persued other paths.
Jack Dingleys' widow (Lucienne) my mother, still lives in the UK (at Southampton) and I have been living here in the Cannes area of France for several years.
Roly Falk rolling a Vulcan at SBAC 1955.
Short black and white clip from Farnborough for anyone that hasn't seen this......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xntzP...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xntzP...elated&search=
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Beds
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can any former Vulcan pilots please confirm whether Vulcans were rolled during other displays when in operational service (not VDF), or was Farnborough a one off?
I may be very wrong, but I believe it did roll at a Duxford show in the late 70s.
However I was very young
Best regards
ARLG
I may be very wrong, but I believe it did roll at a Duxford show in the late 70s.
However I was very young
Best regards
ARLG
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of the aerobatics in the Vulcan Mk1s not involving negative g were readily performed. It had a fighter stick, a good roll rate and handled more like a fighter with fighter stick forces and Q feel. One had to take care with g applications as it could easily be overstressed. There was no hint of wing flexing wheras the Victor seemed to be over flexible.
We did a climbing barrel roll soon after gear retraction on my second Vulcan flight with Tony Blackman at BD. The four Bristol Olympus twin spool engines were a beautiful match to the airframe. The performance and manoeureability made for a delightful aircraft to fly. For these reasons it will long be remembered and reverred by those who were fortunate enough to be a crew member.
Would delight in hearing from someone who was on the aircraft carrier in Lyme Bay for gun firing practice in the late 50s. It shouldn't have been there without restricted area clearance especially as I had just dropped a full load of inert 500 pounders through cloud in its vicinity. My final would be landing approach on to the deck of the carrier followed by a full powered go round and pull up would have surely blown loose items overboard.
Only had a few flights in the Mk2s and cannot comment first hand on its aerobatic handling. It should have been even more capable and as manoeurable as the Mk1s.
We did a climbing barrel roll soon after gear retraction on my second Vulcan flight with Tony Blackman at BD. The four Bristol Olympus twin spool engines were a beautiful match to the airframe. The performance and manoeureability made for a delightful aircraft to fly. For these reasons it will long be remembered and reverred by those who were fortunate enough to be a crew member.
Would delight in hearing from someone who was on the aircraft carrier in Lyme Bay for gun firing practice in the late 50s. It shouldn't have been there without restricted area clearance especially as I had just dropped a full load of inert 500 pounders through cloud in its vicinity. My final would be landing approach on to the deck of the carrier followed by a full powered go round and pull up would have surely blown loose items overboard.
Only had a few flights in the Mk2s and cannot comment first hand on its aerobatic handling. It should have been even more capable and as manoeurable as the Mk1s.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: England
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vulcan Aerobatics
After the accident to VX770 at Syerston we were no longer allowed to do aerobatics by MOD PE as it was called then. I have always assumed the RAF never allowed aerobatics but of course ...... Let's hope 558 doesn't do any! The nose ribs do get damaged.
Still hoping for information on the accident on XL390 at Glenview in the States 12th August 1978. There is no official document in the archives and the 30 year rule applies. Books I've looked at so far don't give any details.
Still hoping for information on the accident on XL390 at Glenview in the States 12th August 1978. There is no official document in the archives and the 30 year rule applies. Books I've looked at so far don't give any details.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hants
Age: 80
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vulcan Aerobatics
I grew up about two miles from Woodford and can distinctly remember delta wing aircraft looping over the airfield. Whether they were Vulcans or 707 experimental aircraft I cannot say. Later when flying them there were oft heard tales of aerobatics in the early days but I never met anyone who admitted to more than rolling them.
ACW
ACW