Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
Thread Starter
'Flatiron' will recall the choice of captains I had in 1977!
I had to make it look as though it took me 3 weeks to decide..........
I had to make it look as though it took me 3 weeks to decide..........
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Allan, please see PM.
Beags, can you comment on crew composition and selection by 1977?
Beags, can you comment on crew composition and selection by 1977?
Thread Starter
I don't recall it being a big deal - by the time we got to AMTC I think that the rear crew and captains had already been crewed together. I think that there were 3 or 4 captains on our OCU course - one was ex-Gannets and one day wasn't there because he'd LMFd a long range navex.
I had to choose between a posting to 35 (which meant flying with Flatiron on the course) or going to 50 (which meant flying with..well, let's just say 'someone else' - a Sqn Ldr whose sole interest was promotion. He called himself a 'senior pilot' when asked what he did by a gang of PMRAFNS in the pub at North Luffenham...
).
The real crew constitution didn't happen until you got to the squadron - whereupon you were simply told which crew you were going to. So I flew with an ex-Blue Tool Nav Radar (just back from a ground tour in RAFG), an ex-Canberra Nav Plotter, an ex-Kipper Fleet AEO and a Captain who was a total Walt...... It seemed to work though - until we were reconstituted after Walt wired Honington after an air show; he'd failed to tell the crew that the aircraft was redlined for an undercarriage snag ('not to be raised except for rear crew escape') and he'd been told to fly it with the gear down...which he'd ignored.
Looking back now, those days in the V-force were probably the best times I had in the RAF. I only did 3 years before mistakenly having another go at the FJ world - but it was a truly epic 3 years of fun. I think the main difference was that, in those days there were enough people in the RAF to meet the commitments. Not long after the infamous cuts started turing septic, then came the 'moriarty' and finally the creeping cancer of contractorisation which has led to the dismal state of the tiny little top-heavy over-committed RAF of today with its tired old aeroplanes long overdue for replacement....
I had to choose between a posting to 35 (which meant flying with Flatiron on the course) or going to 50 (which meant flying with..well, let's just say 'someone else' - a Sqn Ldr whose sole interest was promotion. He called himself a 'senior pilot' when asked what he did by a gang of PMRAFNS in the pub at North Luffenham...
).The real crew constitution didn't happen until you got to the squadron - whereupon you were simply told which crew you were going to. So I flew with an ex-Blue Tool Nav Radar (just back from a ground tour in RAFG), an ex-Canberra Nav Plotter, an ex-Kipper Fleet AEO and a Captain who was a total Walt...... It seemed to work though - until we were reconstituted after Walt wired Honington after an air show; he'd failed to tell the crew that the aircraft was redlined for an undercarriage snag ('not to be raised except for rear crew escape') and he'd been told to fly it with the gear down...which he'd ignored.
Looking back now, those days in the V-force were probably the best times I had in the RAF. I only did 3 years before mistakenly having another go at the FJ world - but it was a truly epic 3 years of fun. I think the main difference was that, in those days there were enough people in the RAF to meet the commitments. Not long after the infamous cuts started turing septic, then came the 'moriarty' and finally the creeping cancer of contractorisation which has led to the dismal state of the tiny little top-heavy over-committed RAF of today with its tired old aeroplanes long overdue for replacement....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
From a PM I am reminded of CTTO and the GSU.
One tale from the GSU. I was the radar leader on 35 in Cyprus but I was not the first into the oral.
The first victim, a 1st tourist and later wg cdr on Buccs, came out spitting feathers. WTF was the 28v J-line?
When it was my turn I attacked. It turned out that the geniuses that designed the NBS (and they were true geniuses) had decided that one piece of wire could do two jobs. On a bombing run, at high level, the nav radar would tilt the scanner down as he approached the target. At the same time the radar scope camera would operate every 7.5 seconds. The J-line was used to send the firing pulse to the camera.
After the attack, and when the camera was not running, the nav rad would raise the scanner tilt. The up tilt command was sent to the tilt motor via the same 28v J-line. Simple.
However if the nav rad raised the scanner during the bomb run it would inhibit the camera; this had been reported as a fault. Instead of simply telling everyone the GSU chose this as a 'trap'.
During the same interrogation I was asked how the nose pistol on the 1000lb bomb worked. I went into minute detail until I said and it hits the ground and starts the detonation sequence. Very good he said except that at 18 inches above the ground you get diaphram reversal which starts the detonation sequence.
I then trumped him with - No, that is the Number 76 mark 1 pistol. We use the Number 76 Mark 2 which has a metal plate over the diaphram.
he deserved it.
One tale from the GSU. I was the radar leader on 35 in Cyprus but I was not the first into the oral.
The first victim, a 1st tourist and later wg cdr on Buccs, came out spitting feathers. WTF was the 28v J-line?
When it was my turn I attacked. It turned out that the geniuses that designed the NBS (and they were true geniuses) had decided that one piece of wire could do two jobs. On a bombing run, at high level, the nav radar would tilt the scanner down as he approached the target. At the same time the radar scope camera would operate every 7.5 seconds. The J-line was used to send the firing pulse to the camera.
After the attack, and when the camera was not running, the nav rad would raise the scanner tilt. The up tilt command was sent to the tilt motor via the same 28v J-line. Simple.
However if the nav rad raised the scanner during the bomb run it would inhibit the camera; this had been reported as a fault. Instead of simply telling everyone the GSU chose this as a 'trap'.
During the same interrogation I was asked how the nose pistol on the 1000lb bomb worked. I went into minute detail until I said and it hits the ground and starts the detonation sequence. Very good he said except that at 18 inches above the ground you get diaphram reversal which starts the detonation sequence.
I then trumped him with - No, that is the Number 76 mark 1 pistol. We use the Number 76 Mark 2 which has a metal plate over the diaphram.
he deserved it.
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The Infamous "Viva Voce"
That brought back some memories, especially of the first time round at Lindholme, on the STCBS. 
As you say the people who designed the NBS were indeed incredibly clever. Tell us a few tales about the AVSCU, the Square Routing Pinwheel and the Triangle Solver; our current crop of QWI's and WSO's probably wouldn't believe the engineering skill and ingenuity it took to solve those navigational and weaponeering problems.
Despite the passage of time you seem to remember better than most and are better qualified than most, having been a Nav Rad Ldr. What happened to "John Willie" by the way?
JG
As you say the people who designed the NBS were indeed incredibly clever. Tell us a few tales about the AVSCU, the Square Routing Pinwheel and the Triangle Solver; our current crop of QWI's and WSO's probably wouldn't believe the engineering skill and ingenuity it took to solve those navigational and weaponeering problems.
Despite the passage of time you seem to remember better than most and are better qualified than most, having been a Nav Rad Ldr. What happened to "John Willie" by the way?
JG
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Even to me as a humble co-piglet, the magic of the automatic variation setting device ('dog turd on a stick') was a thing of wonder!
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John Willie
threeputt,
Met john Willie at the V-Force reunion at Newark Air Museum 2004 or 2005. Slightly thinner on top but as brusque as ever.
You may recall his detestation of people talking off intercom. He insisted on the use of crew or conference intercom rather than the lifted earphone.
Well years ago, in the transit bar at Luqa, the bar was 5 deep with people shouting for th infamous brandy sours. While JW was pushing forward someone, I never found out who he was, asked me about "Foghorn Willie"
Does the name fit?
Seems that Mr NBS, when an SNCO Nav Rad on Lincolns, used to Foghorn rather than use the intercom.
PS, forgot to mention that he was living in Doncaster at the time.
Met john Willie at the V-Force reunion at Newark Air Museum 2004 or 2005. Slightly thinner on top but as brusque as ever.
You may recall his detestation of people talking off intercom. He insisted on the use of crew or conference intercom rather than the lifted earphone.
Well years ago, in the transit bar at Luqa, the bar was 5 deep with people shouting for th infamous brandy sours. While JW was pushing forward someone, I never found out who he was, asked me about "Foghorn Willie"
Does the name fit?
Seems that Mr NBS, when an SNCO Nav Rad on Lincolns, used to Foghorn rather than use the intercom.
PS, forgot to mention that he was living in Doncaster at the time.
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JW
I knew there was something about him that I really didn't like...an ex sneck!!!! (Stands by for flack)
Aaaaargh! just looked in my log book, I've got his signature...twice.
The nasty, grumpy old piece of work did my FHT, in Nov 73, when he was SNRI on 230 OCU at Scampton. No one had passed one of his trips, first time, for about 18 months! My trip seemed to go OK but, then we get to the debrief, "You did this and this, this, this and that wrong but, you did this and this OK, so, on balance, we won't refly you!!!" Not "well done" or anything slightly encouraging....c$%t.
Back in the bar we are getting stuck in, it's about 1850 and himself walks into the bar, "Fred " say's I to the barman "a pint of .....for Sqn Ldr W***^&*s." JW then proceeds to give me a telling off for calling the barman by his first name! When I remonstrate with him (I was a Flt Lt after all) he invites me out of the bar into the foyer of the Scampton Mess and starts to read me the state of the world according to JW. Suitably told off I skulk back to the bar, chuntering to myself only to have him chase after me and throw me out for being incorrectly dressed (It's now 19.05 and I should have been in a sports jacket and slacks etc!)....you really couldn't make it up! What a complete to***r.
I don't know what special qualities he needed to be the SRNI but, a couple that he didn't have were leadership or a personality. A complete and utter knob.
Sorry about that but, it's been gripping me for 33 years!
Rant finished
Aaaaargh! just looked in my log book, I've got his signature...twice.
The nasty, grumpy old piece of work did my FHT, in Nov 73, when he was SNRI on 230 OCU at Scampton. No one had passed one of his trips, first time, for about 18 months! My trip seemed to go OK but, then we get to the debrief, "You did this and this, this, this and that wrong but, you did this and this OK, so, on balance, we won't refly you!!!" Not "well done" or anything slightly encouraging....c$%t.
Back in the bar we are getting stuck in, it's about 1850 and himself walks into the bar, "Fred " say's I to the barman "a pint of .....for Sqn Ldr W***^&*s." JW then proceeds to give me a telling off for calling the barman by his first name! When I remonstrate with him (I was a Flt Lt after all) he invites me out of the bar into the foyer of the Scampton Mess and starts to read me the state of the world according to JW. Suitably told off I skulk back to the bar, chuntering to myself only to have him chase after me and throw me out for being incorrectly dressed (It's now 19.05 and I should have been in a sports jacket and slacks etc!)....you really couldn't make it up! What a complete to***r.
I don't know what special qualities he needed to be the SRNI but, a couple that he didn't have were leadership or a personality. A complete and utter knob.
Sorry about that but, it's been gripping me for 33 years!
Rant finished
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
threeputt,
You remind me of a couple of Willie one's too.
My colleague in Waddo Ops flew a sortie and, as a Select Star nav rad chose a particularly small offset and got a commensurately small score.
"That offset was too small. If you weren't as experienced as you are you wouldn't have seen it."
I did a trip with him about '69 which means he was the SNRI for over 4 years. We did a particularly difficult sortie, I chose Dunkeswell as I knew they got little trade and liked to give good scores to encourage us to use them.
On one attack he gave me a shiftless basic. I had planned ahead to over fly the headland approaching Exter and my f*****g plotter miss it. Still got a good score.
Then we did a PD to St Mawgan. He was ex-Victors and as it was a radar check he went to sleep. As we flew to St Mawgan I did his job and mine, called every height check, checked the descent profile, the lot. In the debrief I got bollocked for poor crew cooperation - not me I hasten to add, the whole crew.
The plonker did not however debrief the Captain, Flt Cdr 35 desig, or my plotter, OC BNS 35 desig, as both were real sqn ldrs. He contented himself with writing me up or should I say down. B*gg*r didn't dare fail me though.
You remind me of a couple of Willie one's too.
My colleague in Waddo Ops flew a sortie and, as a Select Star nav rad chose a particularly small offset and got a commensurately small score.
"That offset was too small. If you weren't as experienced as you are you wouldn't have seen it."
I did a trip with him about '69 which means he was the SNRI for over 4 years. We did a particularly difficult sortie, I chose Dunkeswell as I knew they got little trade and liked to give good scores to encourage us to use them.
On one attack he gave me a shiftless basic. I had planned ahead to over fly the headland approaching Exter and my f*****g plotter miss it. Still got a good score.
Then we did a PD to St Mawgan. He was ex-Victors and as it was a radar check he went to sleep. As we flew to St Mawgan I did his job and mine, called every height check, checked the descent profile, the lot. In the debrief I got bollocked for poor crew cooperation - not me I hasten to add, the whole crew.
The plonker did not however debrief the Captain, Flt Cdr 35 desig, or my plotter, OC BNS 35 desig, as both were real sqn ldrs. He contented himself with writing me up or should I say down. B*gg*r didn't dare fail me though.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Viva Voce
threeputt,
Your other reminds me of my time through Lindholme. One of our course whose name is linked with Arse did not want to go to the V-force. Simple plan, fail the course.
To fail the course he simply had to fail the Viva.
What we did not know was that no one failed the course (but see below). He went into the Viva in the certain knowledge that he knew nothing about the NBS and was bound to fail.
He started the Viva, all the boxes in the Sim with power off, at 0830. They finished at 1700 having had one hour for lunch. I have never seen anyone so punch drunk and crushed. He was posted to Valiants so he won in the end.
No, a friend of mine did fail the course. He was incapable of operating both the CU595 Tilt and the CU585 with eyes on the Ind 301. A tour later and he was back as a plotter.
They got you in the end.
Your other reminds me of my time through Lindholme. One of our course whose name is linked with Arse did not want to go to the V-force. Simple plan, fail the course.
To fail the course he simply had to fail the Viva.
What we did not know was that no one failed the course (but see below). He went into the Viva in the certain knowledge that he knew nothing about the NBS and was bound to fail.
He started the Viva, all the boxes in the Sim with power off, at 0830. They finished at 1700 having had one hour for lunch. I have never seen anyone so punch drunk and crushed. He was posted to Valiants so he won in the end.
No, a friend of mine did fail the course. He was incapable of operating both the CU595 Tilt and the CU585 with eyes on the Ind 301. A tour later and he was back as a plotter.
They got you in the end.
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I know I was chosen for my Adonis looks,breeding and innate skills,but then of course this was in 1957 and 3Grp. who always were that little bit in advance of 1Grp.
We carried out Sea Survival in Felixstowe Harbour,again in the winter months,once recovered from that trauma,Escape and Evasion ont Yorkshire Moors.
By 1959 again back at Gaydon. we were always constituted before arrival no choice.E&S was now at Mountbatten,but then they did provide a natty certificate, "borne with courage and fortitude".
When I finally flew Vulcans at BD.apart from the nominated "Project Capt." never flew with the same crew twice and they were all ugly buggers
Being serious,escape by rear crew members was really a lottery,depending on the nature of the emergency,crew training, time and place.Two instances that come to mind on the Victor. 15000ft.on climbout,only the Captain and AEO survived. 1500ft. 5 miles finals,all five survived!!
It must be obvious that by time Beagle got there,only the ugly buggers were left
We carried out Sea Survival in Felixstowe Harbour,again in the winter months,once recovered from that trauma,Escape and Evasion ont Yorkshire Moors.
By 1959 again back at Gaydon. we were always constituted before arrival no choice.E&S was now at Mountbatten,but then they did provide a natty certificate, "borne with courage and fortitude".
When I finally flew Vulcans at BD.apart from the nominated "Project Capt." never flew with the same crew twice and they were all ugly buggers
Being serious,escape by rear crew members was really a lottery,depending on the nature of the emergency,crew training, time and place.Two instances that come to mind on the Victor. 15000ft.on climbout,only the Captain and AEO survived. 1500ft. 5 miles finals,all five survived!!
It must be obvious that by time Beagle got there,only the ugly buggers were left
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XL319 at Usworth air museum 1983
Hi, there, you guys might like to read about Vulcan XL319, in January 1983, flying in to Usworth aerodrome near Washington, Co. Durham (now part of Sunderland and the site of the Nissan car factory).
The Usworth link is: http://www.neam.co.uk/usworth.html There's a b/w photo, towards the end of the museum history.
I still remember the a/c flying in over Boldon, 3 miles North East of the aerodrome. At that time large planes, civilian or military, were rarely seen in the area. The Vulcan looked absolutely huge, from below, and the roar of the engines at full throttle was impressively loud even at that distance, presumably as it re-circled to land after the first approach.
The Usworth link is: http://www.neam.co.uk/usworth.html There's a b/w photo, towards the end of the museum history.
I still remember the a/c flying in over Boldon, 3 miles North East of the aerodrome. At that time large planes, civilian or military, were rarely seen in the area. The Vulcan looked absolutely huge, from below, and the roar of the engines at full throttle was impressively loud even at that distance, presumably as it re-circled to land after the first approach.
it...best laugh I've had for a while
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Hi, folks,
this is my first post here. I have enjoyed working my way through some of the threads, particularly this one.
I am very interested in Vulcan XH498, which hurt herself a bit during a touch-and-go at the opening of Wellington Airport, New Zealand, in October 1959.
The pilot (Sqn Ldr A A Smailes) touched soft ground about a foot short of the runway. He got her back into the air, and flew her trailing fuel from ruptured tanks back to RNZAF Ohakea, where he put her down successfully.
I saw the plane next day (I was 9), and I remember still the single-strand rope barrier around the aircraft, and also how close we could get to it.
I've been doing some research on this over the last three weeks, and am considering whether I could assemble enough material for a book about it.
The opening of the airport, the flying display (also, an RNZAF Sunderland scraped her bottom along the runway during a low flypast) was watched by 90,000 people, which was a lot of people to assemble in Wellington in 1959. The RAF, the RAAF, the USAF sent contingents of aircraft. Twhole affair was billed as New Zealand being at the forefront, or being of aviation progress. We were then very much part of the 'British' family and the 'Free West' family. XH498 was one of three Vulcans that came to New Zealand then. I think they were all from 617 Sqn, then based at RAF Scampton
If this incident has already been mentioned in this thread, then I'm sorry that I haven't seen it. My very good (ex)neighbour Samuel told me about this site and this thread only recently.
I just haven't got round to reading everything yet.
Anyway I would be interested in getting in contact with any of the crew of XH498 when this happened. Sqn Ldr Smailes retired from the RAF as a wing commander in July 1965 (that's according to The Air Force Lists, which are in our National Library). He would be 83 now. I understand one of the crew was a Bob Mitchell, whose name I found on another, Vulcan, site. He had an e-mail address, which bounced when I tried it.
Anyway, if any of you know anything, I would be grateful. I'd like to talk e-maily to the crew about this.
Thanks
KiwiJaegercat
this is my first post here. I have enjoyed working my way through some of the threads, particularly this one.
I am very interested in Vulcan XH498, which hurt herself a bit during a touch-and-go at the opening of Wellington Airport, New Zealand, in October 1959.
The pilot (Sqn Ldr A A Smailes) touched soft ground about a foot short of the runway. He got her back into the air, and flew her trailing fuel from ruptured tanks back to RNZAF Ohakea, where he put her down successfully.
I saw the plane next day (I was 9), and I remember still the single-strand rope barrier around the aircraft, and also how close we could get to it.
I've been doing some research on this over the last three weeks, and am considering whether I could assemble enough material for a book about it.
The opening of the airport, the flying display (also, an RNZAF Sunderland scraped her bottom along the runway during a low flypast) was watched by 90,000 people, which was a lot of people to assemble in Wellington in 1959. The RAF, the RAAF, the USAF sent contingents of aircraft. Twhole affair was billed as New Zealand being at the forefront, or being of aviation progress. We were then very much part of the 'British' family and the 'Free West' family. XH498 was one of three Vulcans that came to New Zealand then. I think they were all from 617 Sqn, then based at RAF Scampton
If this incident has already been mentioned in this thread, then I'm sorry that I haven't seen it. My very good (ex)neighbour Samuel told me about this site and this thread only recently.
I just haven't got round to reading everything yet.
Anyway I would be interested in getting in contact with any of the crew of XH498 when this happened. Sqn Ldr Smailes retired from the RAF as a wing commander in July 1965 (that's according to The Air Force Lists, which are in our National Library). He would be 83 now. I understand one of the crew was a Bob Mitchell, whose name I found on another, Vulcan, site. He had an e-mail address, which bounced when I tried it.
Anyway, if any of you know anything, I would be grateful. I'd like to talk e-maily to the crew about this.
Thanks
KiwiJaegercat
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Sqn Ldr Smailes retired from the RAF as a wing commander in July 1965
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KiwiJaegercat,
I doubt whether you would find an editor for a book about a subject as esoteric as that.
But if you're a dab hand with Word or suchlike, why not write and format it yourself, then advertise it in the Vulcan and Kiwi communities, and just print it yourself "on demand"? If it's a success, you can always link up with a local print shop or editor.
I just got a book like that about Wisley, airfield in the UK used for flight tests for aircraft like the VC10 and 1-11. I doubt more than a couple of thousand copies were ever printed... but it now exists, and I enjoyed it.
I've been doing some research on this over the last three weeks, and am considering whether I could assemble enough material for a book about it.
But if you're a dab hand with Word or suchlike, why not write and format it yourself, then advertise it in the Vulcan and Kiwi communities, and just print it yourself "on demand"? If it's a success, you can always link up with a local print shop or editor.
I just got a book like that about Wisley, airfield in the UK used for flight tests for aircraft like the VC10 and 1-11. I doubt more than a couple of thousand copies were ever printed... but it now exists, and I enjoyed it.
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As a 13 year old in the early 70's, along with around 2000 other brats at St Johns School in Cyprus, used to watch Vulcans dropping bombs near (we always presumed they weren't suppose to hit) a target moored in Episkopi Bay.
Although it was far more interesting than double English, it did sod all for my ability to spell....But thanks for the entertainment anyway.
I have to say though, the annual firepower display was more impressive, with 1000lb bombs instead of the practice things! But even that was eclipsed by the demonstration of how to crash a harrier into Happy Valley, to much cheering from said 2000 brats........
Although it was far more interesting than double English, it did sod all for my ability to spell....But thanks for the entertainment anyway.
I have to say though, the annual firepower display was more impressive, with 1000lb bombs instead of the practice things! But even that was eclipsed by the demonstration of how to crash a harrier into Happy Valley, to much cheering from said 2000 brats........
