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-   -   QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/633072-qf-group-possible-redundancy-numbers-packages.html)

dr dre 6th Oct 2020 04:47

Direct from the judgement



19. By mid-March 2020, as a result of:
(
i) the collapse in passenger travel;
(ii) measures implemented domestically and internationally to restrict movement;
(iii) the increasing concern that the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic would be sustained; and
(iv) uncertainty as to how long the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic would last,

This, to an albeit untrained legal eye, would suggest that ending of border closures alone would not be sufficient to end stand downs. A return to near normal passenger numbers and an ending of the pandemic would have to happen as well.

OnceBitten 6th Oct 2020 09:25


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10898977)
Direct from the judgement




This, to an albeit untrained legal eye, would suggest that ending of border closures alone would not be sufficient to end stand downs. A return to near normal passenger numbers and an ending of the pandemic would have to happen as well.

Not exactly. Normality will not be able to be returned until these provisions expire;

https://coronavirus.fairwork.gov.au/...own-directions

Then it will fall back on negotiated EA's and any variations.

I highlight this section from this act.

When a directions ends

A qualifying employer could give an eligible employee a JobKeeper enabling stand down direction from 9 April 2020 (when the JobKeeper provisions started). A JobKeeper enabling stand down direction remains in effect until the first of the following:
  • it is withdrawn, revoked or replaced (including by the Fair Work Commission, or
  • the direction stops applying on 29 March 2021.

dr dre 6th Oct 2020 10:01

The decision related to the ability to stand down employees I believe, which Jobkeeper is a separate and exclusive issue. Jobkeeper wasn’t mentioned in the article

Wingspar 12th Oct 2020 20:48

Here’s a question for the legal eagles.
Say SYD-LAX opens up sometime in the future. It will at some stage.
Most probably QF will use the 787.
The same scenario for LHR. At some stage.
Does that give QF the right to still stand down 380 crew?
It’s a most likely scenario sometime in the future.

Keg 12th Oct 2020 21:51

Whilst ever demand is reduced as a result of Covid I suspect that Qantas is going to be able to mount an argument that the grounding of the A380 is beyond their control. I could see that line of argument holding up for at least 12 months after border restrictions are eased. Ultimately I think a judge is going to be ruling on this one.

C441 12th Oct 2020 22:05

And it will be a question for the genuine legal eagles unless Qantas decide to magnanimously stand-up all pilots at that time.
I suspect it will be taken to court to determine if Qantas has any "…..other limitation of work for which the Company cannot be held responsible,….".
We can speculate all we like, but it almost certainly will come down to a decision by an independent adjudicator.

Jeps 12th Oct 2020 22:48

What effect would retiring the A380s tomorrow have on QF’s Net Tangible Assets?

maggot 13th Oct 2020 01:50


Originally Posted by Jeps (Post 10903394)
What effect would retiring the A380s tomorrow have on QF’s Net Tangible Assets?

well that depends on what they want to accomplish

ruprecht 13th Oct 2020 02:53


Originally Posted by Jeps (Post 10903394)
What effect would retiring the A380s tomorrow have on QF’s Net Tangible Assets?

Well, it would set up the mother of all RINs.

blow.n.gasket 13th Oct 2020 03:46

Has the makings of a most interesting game of musical chairs , doesn’t it !
Too many players and not enough chairs yet the music has already stopped yet nobody can dash for an empty chair because Alan has invoked a new rule “ play statues “ , until ?????

ROH111 13th Oct 2020 05:09

There will be no RIN.


OnceBitten 13th Oct 2020 05:57


Originally Posted by ROH111 (Post 10903474)
There will be no RIN.

Please explain????

ROH111 13th Oct 2020 06:10

There will be no RIN, not for a very long time.

Sorry, I missed a few words out there.

“COVID.... finances.... haven’t recovered adequately yet” all lines the execs will use to argue that a RIN will send the company broke.

Its not happening. Not for a very, very long time.

knobbycobby 13th Oct 2020 06:34

Rubbish. Qantas said they will run a RIN on the 747.

dr dre 13th Oct 2020 06:47


Originally Posted by knobbycobby (Post 10903503)
Rubbish. Qantas said they will run a RIN on the 747.

That will be a “paper RIN”, displacement onto other fleets on paper, but the training onto those fleets as a result of that RIN will be well into the future, only when most of them are regularly flying again.

OnceBitten 13th Oct 2020 07:46


Originally Posted by ROH111 (Post 10903497)
There will be no RIN, not for a very long time.

Sorry, I missed a few words out there.

“COVID.... finances.... haven’t recovered adequately yet” all lines the execs will use to argue that a RIN will send the company broke.

Its not happening. Not for a very, very long time.


They will not run the line that" it will send them broke".
It's to risky for the share price and the millions of dollars Senior management have tied up in share options and bonuses just to avoid retraining a few pilots.

After VRs, the guys will be Rin'd on paper. Training however is in the lap of the gods. Things should become clearer at the end of march when Jopkeeper expires.

A320 Flyer 13th Oct 2020 08:41

Jobkeeper has nothing to do with it. Stand downs were made before jobkeeper was even a thing

OnceBitten 13th Oct 2020 09:03


Originally Posted by A320 Flyer (Post 10903572)
Jobkeeper has nothing to do with it. Stand downs were made before jobkeeper was even a thing

You need to do a little more research than just making uninformed posts as above.

https://coronavirus.fairwork.gov.au/...own-directions

Jobkeeper is so much more than a few bucks in an employees pocket. The cash is the distraction. It's the legislation above and beyond an EA that allows the flexibility to apply Stand down as we are currently seeing.
As I said once Jobkeeper expires the legislation then will default to the EA and things should become clearer, or at least the company has to play its hand.


Keg 13th Oct 2020 10:15

Really? The LHEAs and SHEAs permit the respective stand downs. That would be the case whether jobkeeper existed or not. The stand downs were likely to be enacted whether the government placed restrictions on travel or not. Once jobkeeper expires you are correct about it defaulting to the respective EAs as it would have been had jobkeeper not existed to start off with.

Of course the feds may decide to continue to hand out jobkeeper to Qantas if they keep heavy restrictions on international travel. What if they decide to do that for another 2-3 years? By pilots arguing that the stand downs are linked to jobkeeper the government can essentially throw crew a bone and there is nothing we can do about it because we were the ones that argued it was linked to ‘the legislation’.

I can understand the desire to fight the stand down on the basis of it being linked to jobkeeper but I hope we don’t do so out of the desire to ‘do something’ and instead consider the ramifications very carefully.

Whilst ever a pandemic remains declared in various places around the world it’s likely that the law will continue to see some stand downs as reasonable for LH crew. Better a negotiated outcome than a legal precedent. Just need to see how some pilots were faring with sick leave before the TWU lost their court case compared with after.


ROH111 13th Oct 2020 15:58

$50 a fortnight is still Jobkeeper... amiright?

RIN averted.


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