Of course they'll say that on their koolaid dispensary/webinar
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Norm, you hit the nail on the head in #903, it IS their train set indeed and this time around they will do as they please and nothing will stop them, not AIPA not ScoMo not the tea lady!!
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Originally Posted by Don Diego
(Post 10839331)
Norm, you hit the nail on the head in #903, it IS their train set indeed and this time around they will do as they please and nothing will stop them, not AIPA not ScoMo not the tea lady!!
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The latest email from AIPA suggests that if it moves to CR, it’ll be a long drawn out and expensive process.
The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they don’t usually lose these types of disputes. If it went down that path and AIPA became hell bent on putting a gun to Shorthaul so that longhaul has somewhere to go, there would be a lot of SH pilots looking for alternative representation. It’s a mess and I don’t think any Qantas pilot has the stomach for it. Well maybe a few in the ’room’ that seem to want to watch it burn. |
I was about to ask if any of the panic merchants had read the AIPA email (great email, by the way) - but it appears the usual suspects have just seen what they wanted to see.
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There’s nothing we didn’t already know in the email regarding CR. A challenge would of course be expected. As would the loss of SH members.
i thought the info about LWOP and the process involved was well written, and I hope QF take this on board to assist in people’s decision making. It is blatantly obvious that people should know the results of thenVR/ER process before committing to a course of action, best of luck everyone. |
Originally Posted by ConfigFull
(Post 10839350)
I was about to ask if any of the panic merchants had read the AIPA email (great email, by the way) - but it appears the usual suspects have just seen what they wanted to see.
The company can bypass people on LWOP for CR (as expected).
Originally Posted by Don Diego
(Post 10839331)
Norm, you hit the nail on the head in #903, it IS their train set indeed and this time around they will do as they please and nothing will stop them, not AIPA not ScoMo not the tea lady!!
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I and many others are looking forward to you being made redundant Normanton. Hopefully then you will leave this forum to pilots.....
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Guys back in late March when a significant portion of you were complaining & whining about the Project Sunrise Contract I said this
Guys the high & mighty Project Sunrise was something for pre global pandemic days Who could forget the epic photos of QF leaders landing in Honolulu with loud shirts after indulging in a beverage or two , or was this a delivery flight of the "game changer" . What a truly edifying happy snap that one was, how truly iconic it was for a brief moment. All so hard to remember , there was just so much big talk , so much chest beating & the hype (as well the delays in action & decisions) was just endless Qantas is not going to order any aircraft for years & PS is dead Stop dream time it won't help you rebuild your careers & for many that will mean finding either (a) a new airline or (b) a new career Two years from now you will be doing incredibly well if you have two thirds of your international capacity back You couldn't even see that international flying was gone for a long time & atm I would think getting 50% back within 4 years would be incredible You need to accept how things are 1. International flying is gone for a long long time 2. AIPA isn't going to save you , they have lost every court challenge they initiated to QF this century (& there have been many) 3. There will be CRs at Qantas 4. It is unlikely SH will be isolated 5. Your more senior colleague urging you to "hang in there" just want a protective layer beneath them for when the inevitable CRs notices land 6. Any one who joined 2016 & doesn't take at least 3 to 5 years of lwop is either crazy or just not fussed so much 7. I think the CR will go back to early 2000s 8 See it as an opportunity to gain additional skills , quals , a long long surfing trip whatever works for you The guys urging "hang in there" just an action replay of some of the more vocal domestic guys hanging around afap picket lines back in 1989 "hang in there mate" ; "the need us" , "its all a big bluff , they won't really bring in Americans" well the biggest talkers had already signed the new contracts. It won't be any different here , some of biggest "just say no" guys will already have submitted their own application |
^^
Probably one of the smartest posts I’ve seen so far. |
Someone needs to give you a cuddle Telfar. I mean seriously. That’s some of the most epic doomsday, empty glass, pessimistic, negative nelly tripe I’ve ever read.
If you’re actually a pilot I reckon you should get onto pan and talk it over before you convince yourself that you’re actually right! If QF have to CR back to 2000 that’ll be all of the short haul FOS and most of the SOs gone. |
All of your SOs are gone , likely many don't know that (unless they take insurance,lwop)
Well it seems I might have been on the money up to this point , but yes my friend I make many many mistakes every day of my life I would have thought 50% by March 2024 was an optimistic view Why don't you share then , where will QF international be 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 years post pandemic (March 2020 start date) Kick off is June 2021 isn't it ? That's when you start at 0% |
Ok Telfer, you really need to take a seat and think. Almost all of what you wrote was fear filled speculation without providing an objective assessment of the situation. It’s what we are meant to do as pilots, no?
Originally Posted by Telfer86
(Post 10839428)
1. International flying is gone for a long long time
2. AIPA isn't going to save you , they have lost every court challenge they initiated to QF this century (& there have been many) 3. There will be CRs at Qantas 4. It is unlikely SH will be isolated 5. Your more senior colleague urging you to "hang in there" just want a protective layer beneath them for when the inevitable CRs notices land 6. Any one who joined 2016 & doesn't take at least 3 to 5 years of lwop is either crazy or just not fussed so much 7. I think the CR will go back to early 2000s 8. See it as an opportunity to gain additional skills , quals , a long long surfing trip whatever works for you |
The reason this all Bullsh!t?
If they do the VR and still have a genuine surplus then they should be doing another round of VR and if that’s not affordable then start cutting from the bottom up, regardless of LWOP, just as the EA’s + IA intend. That bypass furphy is only there to get people off the books. Gun to the head- if you like. Just look at what American Airlines announced today. Bodies are going to get dropped everywhere. |
normanton
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH. In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck. |
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
(Post 10839345)
The latest email from AIPA suggests that if it moves to CR, it’ll be a long drawn out and expensive process.
The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they don’t usually lose these types of disputes. FWA first responsibility is to protect the agreements negotiated between the employer and the employees, Fair works redundancy provisions are the minimum standard, negotiated outcomes are more binding and override those minimum standards. If QF was to enter into Voluntary receivership then all bets are off in regards to all agreements. But if it gets to that there are bigger problems than just SH v LH and LWOP. |
Originally Posted by tenretni
(Post 10839538)
normanton
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH. In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck. It's also precisely why bypassing junior crew for redundancy wont be able to be challenged either. For one its in the EBA, but let me provide a timeline: 1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR 2) Company announces CR 3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP 4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone 5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP 6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely. |
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
(Post 10839266)
Basically you can’t move someone out of a role and fill it with someone else, and make the former redundant. Which is why as much as we don’t like it. Shorthaul is safe.
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
(Post 10839266)
...do you think Qantas is going to spend 2 years retraining all the long haul guys to Shorthaul? By the time they’re all typed and checked out, long haul will be back.
Neither of your scenarios should be perceived as protecting a SH pilot from CR. There are multiple ways this can all go down. Qantas has articulated it’s preferred route of people talking LWOP to avoid CR. That is just the first of a variety of different options that Qantas may pursue. By taking LWOP you’re hoping that someone senior to you will be CR’d and you’ll beat them back to work. Again, I point out that if enough people take LWOP then NO ONE needs to be made redundant and you’re likely to come back to work in seniority anyway. IE you’ll be out of the company (no accrual of years of service for staff travel, long service leave trips, etc) for the exact length of time you would have been CR’d anyway. I’m hopeful after some discussions I had today that the time line issue will be better resolved in the next week or so and S/Os will be able to make a more informed decision post the VR EOIs becoming binding. |
Originally Posted by normanton
(Post 10839559)
1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR 2) Company announces CR 3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP 4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone 5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP 6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely. |
QANTAS RECRUITMENT THREAD.
19th October, 2016, 17:06
Originally Posted by normanton
(Post 9545573)
I received my email around 5pm EDST on Tuesday.
3 days from then would be 5pm Friday, so that's when I'll be having mine done by. 3 days is very stiff, they obviously want a plain snap of everyone with very limited prior study. There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them. Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless. |
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