Originally Posted by common cents (Post 10839178)

So a more senior pilot on SU and a more junior pilot on LWOP are both still employed by the company. The industrial agreements in place give the company the option to by pass the LWOP pilot in case of CR.
Both still considered employees of the company but the company has the option to discriminate.
I’d love to be the judge presiding over that one!

Originally Posted by blow.n.gasket (Post 10839197)

So let me get this straight , taking this concept of the “Immaculate Passover “ for LWOP pilots to the nth degree , you could quite possibly end up with a situation of a vast number of junior pilots being convinced and herded into taking LWOP by Management and their FUD campaign of being CR’d if they aren’t protected by Managements application of “MAY” as in LH EA 15.10.2 (b).
Let us say, for arguments sake , that a senior pilot with decades of seniority , or a middle ranking pilot for that matter, due to past practice and principle application of Seniority would in a normal world have a fair idea of where they stood in the scheme of things , as has been shown by the Company’s application in other past decisions regarding application of the concept of seniority .
Now these middle ranking pilots and above suddenly find themselves subject to being CR’d due to an arbitrary managerial interpretation of the contract which “convinced” a vast number of more Junior pilots into taking LWOP due to the supposed protections afforded if they capitulate ..and these middle ranking and above pilots so affected aren’t anywhere even close to the bottom of the seniority pyramid scheme !
Is this truely how the application of Compulsory Redundancy was envisaged?
One would think that the intrinsic concept of “last on first off “ as pretty straight forward !
Obviously not when viewed through the cynical prism of Qantas interpretation !
Talk about unintended consequences !
Come on , get real , how long would this cynical Company interpretation last under legal scrutiny?
What other long upheld tenants are Management going to “re-interpret” cynically in these “unprecedented “ times one wonders !

Originally Posted by KZ Kiwi (Post 10839248)

So what happens to the junior SH pilots that didn’t take LWOP by Aug 7 ? I know the company have stated their position with regards to CR. AIPA have stated theirs. When it ends up in court resulting in AIPAs favour what happens then?

Originally Posted by KZ Kiwi (Post 10839275)

But in the above examples you’re saying if enough people take LWOP mid range seniority LH FOs could be made redundant and returning SOs from LWOP would then fill those positions......at great CR cost and retraining cost to the company.

Originally Posted by KZ Kiwi (Post 10839279)

I don’t mean the individual I mean the position.

Lots of mid range seniority FOs on the 787 and 330......those positions certainly aren’t being made redundant any time soon as they are likely to be the LH fleet going forward

Originally Posted by common cents (Post 10839285)

Blueskymine

I largely agree with your take on the situation.
One question though. Even if this pool of S/O positions are made redundant, how does the company remove a senior S/O on SU so that a more junior S/O on LWOP takes the job.
Would that not mean that the retrenched S/O has been unfairly dismissed?

Originally Posted by Blueskymine (Post 10839290)

If the junior SO is on LWOP at the time and there is a notice of CRs, and the senior SO is on SU, the CR may pass over the junior SO on LWOP and target the senior one. (At the companies discretion). Provided the junior SO took greater than 12 months LWOP by 07/08

If the SO who is on LWOP is nearing their return date and there is a notice of CR, they’d be crazy to return. They’d apply for an extension and I’d see no reason why the company wouldn’t approve it.

So the senior SO is CRd, joins the retrenchment list and when all LWOP pilots return or the company starts external recruitment the retrenchment list pilots will have another shot after a HR driven process of some unspecified description, and if successful, return to their original seniority in the base and rank that’s vacant. (PER 787 SO).

These are the facts. They may not be what we all want to hear. AIPA won’t be able to challenge it for risk of a ruling against seniority which won’t be great moving forward and that is pretty much that.

The real concern is if every SO took LWOP, the oldies give the bird and stick around and the gators start snapping into the FO ranks. Whilst unlikely, (it’s unlikely anyone will exit the business involuntarily) it’s worth considering the ramifications (Tino has admitted this is a possibility) and perhaps tightening a few words and clauses in EBA11.

LWOP as far as I can see it is insurance. You’re giving up 6-12 weeks of annual leave for a six digit salary and maintaining your position while avoiding a HR driven process going forward. You’re also maintaining your rank, base and fleet (provided it still exists). If you join the retrenchment list, you won’t.

Originally Posted by common cents (Post 10839297)

So let’s say for arguments sake that 50 S/O positions become redundant. And let’s say that the pilots who held those positions are all on LWOP.
The company bypasses them and retrenches the next 50 in seniority. The LWOP pilots take those jobs. The 50 who were let go , were let go from positions that were not redundant. I’d say they were unfairly dismissed.

Originally Posted by common cents (Post 10839297)

So let’s say for arguments sake that 50 S/O positions become redundant. And let’s say that the pilots who held those positions are all on LWOP.
The company bypasses them and retrenches the next 50 in seniority. The LWOP pilots take those jobs. The 50 who were let go , were let go from positions that were not redundant. I’d say they were unfairly dismissed.

Originally Posted by stillcallozhome (Post 10839302)

Most of that is correct. The only thing that was said contrary to what you just wrote is that if the junior SO that is on 12 months lwop opts to extend their lwop as the company have stated there will be CR at the, for arguments sake, 13 month point, that pilot will not be bypassed for CR. Tino doubled down and said that junior pilot is only covered by the discretionary bypass, at this stage, for the period of their initial lwop period applied for prior to August 7th.

Therefore, the only way the junior pilot could avoid CR at that 13 month mark we are speaking about, would be to apply for more than 13 months lwop before August 7th. Eg. lwop for 2 years applied for prior to August 7th.

It’s a disgusting thing they’re doing but as it states in the eba, bypass is at their discretion. They’re drawing a line by using their discretion to bypass. Appalling.

Originally Posted by tenretni (Post 10839311)

So little Johnny who's been a good chap and has been on LWOP, comes back from leave one day, and taps his senior mate on the shoulder.
He says G'day there Charlie move over I'm taking your position. Uncle Q smiles as he hands Charlie his CR notice. Charlie jumps up in a fit of rage, and says my job is being filled by another employee. Uncle Q says that's right you should have listened and gone on LWOP.
Mr Fairwork Ombudsman comes along and asks what? Tell me uncle Q was this so called redundant position filled by another? Why yes . Then tell me how is it that Charlies job was redundant when it had to be filled by another? Uncle Q ponders the question and says I'm not sure but I acted within the EBA. Then asks why have I dismissed Charlie unfairly.
Charlie jumps with joy as he now takes his generous CR package and looks forward to his compensation package.
In the meantime somewhere in a far off galaxy........................