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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

Joker89 12th Sep 2020 10:35

Ah yes, the “what if we didn’t argument”. The “models” can’t be wrong even in the face of overwhelming data on historical death rates against places that didn’t lock down and restrict Internal travel.

Bend alot 12th Sep 2020 10:41


Originally Posted by Joker89 (Post 10883598)
Ah yes, the “what if we didn’t argument”. The “models” can’t be wrong even in the face of overwhelming data on historical death rates against places that didn’t lock down and restrict Internal travel.

Can you list those places?

Everyone in the given graph did.

exfocx 12th Sep 2020 10:50


Originally Posted by Joker89 (Post 10883579)
All the fear mongers should watch this. You just Need to follow the data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvFhIFzaac


Whose data; you mean the data YOU believe in? So all those other virologists, infectious diseases experts etc, who agree on the present path just don't get, while you, an aluminium tube driver does! You can sift through the material and see what they can't?

You are joking, aren't you?

exfocx 12th Sep 2020 10:56


Originally Posted by Bend alot (Post 10883597)
I have been a advocate for Basic Life Skills to be taught in schools as a core for many years - that includes understanding government/s and the agencies including tax and business.

With all due respect Bed alot, why? Xeptu, how did your son get to be 35 yrs old and not know any of that? Did you not talk to him about politics etc as he was growing up, about voting and why and how the system works?

I'd have though this is what a parent does as any normal part of raising your offspring. Finance, how it works, IRs, CCs Vs personal loans, saving Vs debt. Politics, as above.

Joker89 12th Sep 2020 11:05


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10883609)
Whose data; you mean the data YOU believe in? So all those other virologists, infectious diseases experts etc, who agree on the present path just don't get, while you, an aluminium tube driver does! You can sift through the material and see what they can't?

You are joking, aren't you?

please produce some data analysis that supports your point of view, not models and “expert” opinion.

Xeptu 12th Sep 2020 11:09


Originally Posted by Bend alot (Post 10883597)
I have been a advocate for Basic Life Skills to be taught in schools as a core for many years - that includes understanding government/s and the agencies including tax and business.

It takes me back to my year 11 maths teacher, he was a pakistani, we called him Pakki Jones. He unknown to us at the time was an extraordinary math teacher. We didn't care about maths , we didn't want to be there, we wanted to get out of school and do it our way, like most teenagers. This is how he got our undivided attention. OK he said clearly you don't want to know anything about maths, lets do the very first thing you will need to know when you leave school, he pulled out a stack of Individual Tax Return Forms. We waded through it in sheer horror, whats a tax file number, oh that you have to apply for one of those it will be with you for the rest of your life. He became the schools most respected and best teacher of all time. (our time)

Bend alot 12th Sep 2020 11:19


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10883614)
With all due respect Bed alot, why? Xeptu, how did your son get to be 35 yrs old and not know any of that? Did you not talk to him about politics etc as he was growing up, about voting and why and how the system works?

I'd have though this is what a parent does as any normal part of raising your offspring. Finance, how it works, IRs, CCs Vs personal loans, saving Vs debt. Politics, as above.

No actually, you do pass on things (generally what you know or learn)

My kids have been exposed to a lot - I guess they have learnt some stuff.

But none of the stuff you listed are general topics of family conversation, my kids know roughly that I have a will and where my money can be found (via a broker) but no details other than a rough amount and what I wish they would do with it.

Bend alot 12th Sep 2020 11:23

It is very normal for that age group.

Xeptu 12th Sep 2020 11:33


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10883614)
With all due respect Bed alot, why? Xeptu, how did your son get to be 35 yrs old and not know any of that? Did you not talk to him about politics etc as he was growing up, about voting and why and how the system works?

I'd have though this is what a parent does as any normal part of raising your offspring. Finance, how it works, IRs, CCs Vs personal loans, saving Vs debt. Politics, as above.

Yep! and they rolled their eyeballs, just like your kids did.

exfocx 13th Sep 2020 01:48


Originally Posted by Joker89 (Post 10883618)
please produce some data analysis that supports your point of view, not models and “expert” opinion.

Your problem is you think you have the capability and knowledge to interpret the data, and you obviously think those experts who haven't came to your conclusion can't. I don't.

If was as simple as you think, there wouldn't be differences of expert opinion.

Section28- BE 13th Sep 2020 02:08

ex the Daily Mail: Airline rivals Qantas and Virgin join forces to demand.......
 

Airline rivals Qantas and Virgin join forces to demand Queensland opens its borders to help save hundreds of jobs - as the coronavirus pandemic continues to wreak havoc on the travel industry
Daily Mail article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rs-reopen.html

rgds
S28

Bend alot 13th Sep 2020 02:22


Originally Posted by Section28- BE (Post 10883985)

Qantas and Virgin - save jobs!

Qantas certainly should be ashamed of its employment record during the pandemic.

currawong 13th Sep 2020 02:54

AMA backs Queensland Chief Health Officer.

"Queensland's medical community has spoken out in support of the state's Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young..."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-...s-ama/12650214

Turnleft080 13th Sep 2020 04:10

[QUOTE=currawong. AMA backs Queensland Chief Health Officer.
[i]"Queensland's medical community has spoken out in support of the state's Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young..."

Oh, she's the one that calls the shots with border polices and rich people entering the state.
Anastasia is just the spokeswomen as Scotty's telephone call indicated last week.

KRviator 13th Sep 2020 05:55

The single biggest problem with delegating authority for border closures to CHO's et al, is this. They are Doctors by profession! The very nature of a Doctors psyche is to prevent, or limit the spread of disease, no matter the cost. They are not economists, virologists or (shudder) politicians. They have no concept of the ramifications beyond their health-perspective bubble. Tell a Doctor they can "do whatever they need to to stop COVID in the State of <X>" and of course they are going to say "stop everyone coming in". Tell a Doctor "Do whatever you want to stop COVID, but obey the Constitution" and you would have a very different result.

currawong 13th Sep 2020 06:26


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10884041)
The single biggest problem with delegating authority for border closures to CHO's et al, is this. They are Doctors by profession! The very nature of a Doctors psyche is to prevent, or limit the spread of disease, no matter the cost. They are not economists, virologists or (shudder) politicians. They have no concept of the ramifications beyond their health-perspective bubble. Tell a Doctor they can "do whatever they need to to stop COVID in the State of <X>" and of course they are going to say "stop everyone coming in". Tell a Doctor "Do whatever you want to stop COVID, but obey the Constitution" and you would have a very different result.

Valid argument, if there was nobody coming in....

CaptCloudbuster 13th Sep 2020 07:40

Technically the QLD Premier was right.

Graeme Orr, professor of law at the University of Queensland, says it's clear the law provides that only a public health officer can let someone out of quarantine to go to a funeral. "Also, under the crime and corruption law it would be highly inappropriate for a minister to intervene."

Regardless of where the formal power rested, the affair has been damaging for the Premier and the CHO, and shows that if Queensland is to keep its border closed, more flexibility is needed in the system to deal better with compassionate cases.

Ragnor 13th Sep 2020 08:18

QANTAS, Virgin, Helloworld and Flight Centre have launched a campaign to get QLD to open their border running it along with Queen P re-election campaign with a series of TV adds.

Haveing the domestic borders closed is costing the tourism industry billions and the loss of jobs to go with it, this election will be interesting to watch how Queen P sells the closure and what she will do to reignite the economy.

C441 13th Sep 2020 08:43

I find it perplexing that strict the limitations that are applied on movement from Northern NSW where there have been few if any recent Covid cases do not apply to suburban Brisbane. There have been numerous positively confirmed cases in the southern and western suburbs of Brisbane but there are no limitations on the movement of people across the suburbs. Surely the CHO must have considered closing the border between the north and east and the south and western suburbs.:rolleyes: :*

Turnleft080 13th Sep 2020 08:46


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10884041)
The single biggest problem with delegating authority for border closures to CHO's et al, is this. They are Doctors by profession! The very nature of a Doctors psyche is to prevent, or limit the spread of disease, no matter the cost. They are not economists, virologists or (shudder) politicians. They have no concept of the ramifications beyond their health-perspective bubble. Tell a Doctor they can "do whatever they need to to stop COVID in the State of <X>" and of course they are going to say "stop everyone coming in". Tell a Doctor "Do whatever you want to stop COVID, but obey the Constitution" and you would have a very different result.

You forgot one more thing. They have failed how to improve your immune system to limit the symptoms, and even prevent hospitalisation.
Not one iota since Jan. Nothing zilch. You know why? Money, money, money, it's so funny in a sick mans world. And woman.

Good grief I just found this, he's finally on to it. Never though I see the day.
https://www.insider.com/fauci-takes-...y-boost-2020-9

Pugilistic Animus 13th Sep 2020 09:45


Originally Posted by Slezy9 (Post 10797847)
You following events in the USA?

The entire US has gone to pot. We'll either have a new civil war or we'll be destroyed as a nation from the pandemic. We may even get lucky and have both.

Joke.... Donald Trump caught the novel Corona virus, our thoughts and prayers are with the virus :}

exfocx 13th Sep 2020 10:00


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10884041)
The single biggest problem with delegating authority for border closures to CHO's et al, is this. They are Doctors by profession! The very nature of a Doctors psyche is to prevent, or limit the spread of disease, no matter the cost. They are not economists, virologists or (shudder) politicians. They have no concept of the ramifications beyond their health-perspective bubble. Tell a Doctor they can "do whatever they need to to stop COVID in the State of <X>" and of course they are going to say "stop everyone coming in". Tell a Doctor "Do whatever you want to stop COVID, but obey the Constitution" and you would have a very different result.

So you're saying a Dr would have no idea of the economic consequences and If so I guess you'd say the same about an economist understanding the health consequences. Btw, what's to say a virologist isn't a Dr!

Edit: basically you're saying she isn't qualified to lead the response, can you tell us what you know of her quals to make that claim?

Can you tell me where the constitution has been ignored? Also wondering what you have to say about the av lfe expectancy thing.

KRviator 13th Sep 2020 10:33


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10884139)
So you're saying a Dr would have no idea of the economic consequences and If so I guess you'd say the same about an economist understanding the health consequences. Btw, what's to say a virologist isn't a Dr!

Edit: basically you're saying she isn't qualified to lead the response, can you tell us what you know of her quals to make that claim?

Can you tell me where the constitution has been ignored? Also wondering what you have to say about the av lfe expectancy thing.

I'm saying that the priority of the CHO is to control the spread, and so long as they think they have the authority to shut out well over 60% of the Australian population as a means to an end then they will do that.

As for the Constitution, you can try by looking at s.117 "A subject of the Queen, resident in any State, shall not be subject in any other State to any disability or discrimination which would not be equally applicable to him if he were a subject of the Queen resident in such other State." Now, the "standard test" as proposed by Justice Stephen in Henry v Boehm (slightly paraphrased)is to take two citizens, identical in every way, bar their state of residence, and ask the question "Can they do the same thing, and are they subject to the same penalties?".

You tell me that a citizen in Logan, Qld, where AIUI there has been confirmed transmission can travel to the Brisbane CBD, yet a citizen of Lismore, NSW cannot even enter Queensland, and the sole basis on which she has been rejected entry is she is from New South Wales, does not violate s.117. As was found in the Palmer v WA (No 4) trial, there are "reasonable alternative measures" that would not increase the risk to the WA population, yet they have not been introduced. Residents of NSW & Vic are still locked out of WA based on nothing more than their state of residence, no matter the amount - or lack thereof - of COVID cases in their locality.

And when you consider how many international arrivals Qld is taking per capita, they are managing less than 1/3rd of that entering NSW (91/Million, vs NSW at 301/Million) yet Anna-Stayaway has the gall to list their entire state as a 'hotspot' because her state isn't pulling its' weight? Puh-lease.

michigan j 13th Sep 2020 10:51


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10884139)
So you're saying a Dr would have no idea of the economic consequences and If so I guess you'd say the same about an economist understanding the health consequences. Btw, what's to say a virologist isn't a Dr!

Fantastic news! Apparently foreigners can pay to get in now. How much is it per person please?
As for my Indian mate who cant come in to see his dying brother, I would like to set a GoFundMe to allow him in. How much do we need to raise to get him an exemption?

Bend alot 13th Sep 2020 10:53


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10884168)
I'm saying that the priority of the CHO is to control the spread, and so long as they think they have the authority to shut out well over 60% of the Australian population as a means to an end then they will do that.

As for the Constitution, you can try by looking at s.117 "A subject of the Queen, resident in any State, shall not be subject in any other State to any disability or discrimination which would not be equally applicable to him if he were a subject of the Queen resident in such other State." Now, the "standard test" as proposed by Justice Stephen in Henry v Boehm (slightly paraphrased)is to take two citizens, identical in every way, bar their state of residence, and ask the question "Can they do the same thing, and are they subject to the same penalties?".

You tell me that a citizen in Logan, Qld, where AIUI there has been confirmed transmission can travel to the Brisbane CBD, yet a citizen of Lismore, NSW cannot even enter Queensland, and the sole basis on which she has been rejected entry is she is from New South Wales, does not violate s.117. As was found in the Palmer v WA (No 4) trial, there are "reasonable alternative measures" that would not increase the risk to the WA population, yet they have not been introduced. Residents of NSW & Vic are still locked out of WA based on nothing more than their state of residence, no matter the amount - or lack thereof - of COVID cases in their locality.

And when you consider how many international arrivals Qld is taking per capita, they are managing less than 1/3rd of that entering NSW (91/Million, vs NSW at 301/Million) yet Anna-Stayaway has the gall to list their entire state as a 'hotspot' because her state isn't pulling its' weight? Puh-lease.

NSW & ACT were/are happy for Victoria to be open to them - they knew QLD was not happy with Victorians entering - but happy to facilitate that they did (put no barrier to protect QLD interest).

A result the third party interest (NSW/ACT) in border crossings got a penalty.

Funny part is they both learnt that the border restriction for Victoria was justified and both introduced them soon after - but both have proven they run the Jack system.

exfocx 13th Sep 2020 12:38


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10884168)
I'm saying that the priority of the CHO is to control the spread, and so long as they think they have the authority to shut out well over 60% of the Australian population as a means to an end then they will do that.

As for the Constitution, you can try by looking at s.117 "A subject of the Queen, resident in any State, shall not be subject in any other State to any disability or discrimination which would not be equally applicable to him if he were a subject of the Queen resident in such other State." Now, the "standard test" as proposed by Justice Stephen in Henry v Boehm (slightly paraphrased)is to take two citizens, identical in every way, bar their state of residence, and ask the question "Can they do the same thing, and are they subject to the same penalties?".

You tell me that a citizen in Logan, Qld, where AIUI there has been confirmed transmission can travel to the Brisbane CBD, yet a citizen of Lismore, NSW cannot even enter Queensland, and the sole basis on which she has been rejected entry is she is from New South Wales, does not violate s.117. As was found in the Palmer v WA (No 4) trial, there are "reasonable alternative measures" that would not increase the risk to the WA population, yet they have not been introduced. Residents of NSW & Vic are still locked out of WA based on nothing more than their state of residence, no matter the amount - or lack thereof - of COVID cases in their locality.

And when you consider how many international arrivals Qld is taking per capita, they are managing less than 1/3rd of that entering NSW (91/Million, vs NSW at 301/Million) yet Anna-Stayaway has the gall to list their entire state as a 'hotspot' because her state isn't pulling its' weight? Puh-lease.

Ah, now I see the problem, you're a pilot, infectious diseases expert, virologist, Dr and now a constitutional lawyer! Prof Anne Twomey a well known constitutional lawyer said (as did others) at the start of the border closures that McGowan was well within the constitutional limits in closing the borders, as time went on she said that control of cv would weaken his position, then the Vic issues changed that again. The general consensus of Palmer's case over here was that is was in general to McGowan's advantage. I think you're making the mistake of taking a Judges ruling, without any contextual knowledge of it and applying in a broad brush fashion, most likely inappropriately.

You again make the mistake of thinking you're more than just a pilot. Btw, what is your response in relation to your "knowledge" of Av life expectancy?

exfocx 13th Sep 2020 12:46

[QUOTE=KRviator;10884168]I'm saying that the priority of the CHO is to control the spread, and so long as they think they have the authority to shut out well over 60% of the Australian population as a means to an end then they will do that...........[/Q

You're suffering from overreach. What is her order of priority and how would you know what she thinks? Do you think that whatever advice she gives the QLD Premier that there would also be legal advice given by the QLD Attorney General & the QLD Crown Solicitors Office??

Btw, you have seen the comments on the data that the greater the death rate the greater the degree of economic damage?

Edit: Apologies, I don't know what financial impact cv is having on you and thus your views.

Bend alot 13th Sep 2020 13:02


Originally Posted by exfocx (Post 10884258)

Btw, you have seen the comments on the data that the greater the death rate the greater the degree of economic damage?

No actually I have not, I have heard it is way too early (a few years) to know that economic result.

slats11 13th Sep 2020 14:06

Is Victoria a real epidemic, or just a casedemic.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...vFhIFzaac#menu

40 minutes but worth a look.
Argues that 20% of population are susceptible to COVID, and 80% have a degree of immunity from previous CV with enough cross-reactivity.
Also that the epidemiology curves are pretty much baked in regardless of measures like lockdowns or masks.
and that you need to look at death data. Case data is confusing because how many cases (or how many positive PCR tests you get) depends on how much testing you do.
The world has probably over-reacted to this. And this over-reaction may have been the entire point.

Turnleft080 13th Sep 2020 14:26

Hey slats at 12:54 he said we are doing things in history that we haven't tried before.
i.e. locking down healthy people I would assume. We haven't locked away healthy people at all not in any civilisation
or generation. Until now.
Just shows how governments hit the panic button, except Sweden of course.
Should be shown to Sutton/Andrews and they will immediately dismiss all the data,
even though they think its correct.
We will just supercomputer it, she'll be right mate.

slats11 13th Sep 2020 15:00

We haven’t ever used an incredibly sensitive test (able to find virus in sewage) to define people with no symptoms as diseased, and using the numbers of such diseased people to make decisions on locking down a city of 5M.
No, I don’t think we have tried that before.
But let’s see how it turns out.

slats11 13th Sep 2020 15:41

Dan seems to be in his own world.

The Victorian CHO has admitted he didn’t recommend the Victorian curfew.

The Commonwealth CHO has described Victoria’s path as very conservative.

While COVID is an issue, we need to be careful not to just examine one side of the ledger. There are enormous long term health and economic costs to these lockdowns. The problem is that it will be too late by the time the final cost is known.

Sunfish 13th Sep 2020 20:57

Dan seems to me to be a closet sadist and a megalomaniac. He seems to me to be getting pleasure out of the infliction of pain. That is the only construction I can put on the emotionless kabuki. we get every morning along with the constant micro management of everything.

What is particularly repellant is his deliberate and nasty use of the epidemic to advance his personal prejudices:

Hunting, firearm and ammunition sales were banned.

Golf banned, but Bicycling and walking allowed.

No access to holiday homes. No camping, no caravanning.

Boating banned - you still aren’t even allowed to sit in your boat on a mooring or in a marina!

Flying banned in greater Melbourne.

....And of course no protests, unless it’s for BLM.


Joker89 13th Sep 2020 21:26

Throughout history, governments and leaders have used fear to influence and control people. Fear of going to hell, fear of crime, fear of immigration etc. Look at the ridiculous curfews, inconsistent rules and heavy handed police tactics, I Suggest that’s more scary than COVID.

Chronic Snoozer 14th Sep 2020 00:07


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10884532)
the emotionless kabuki. we get every morning along with the constant micro management of everything.

Exactly what I'm thinking. A roll call of statistics read out every day. Doesn't he have anything better to do?

brokenagain 14th Sep 2020 00:14

I wonder how the 7 people that died in Victoria yesterday from/with COVID compares to the 125 Victorians that died on average each day at the same time last year, that we didn’t get a daily update for.

Stickshift3000 14th Sep 2020 00:20

Well, this made me smile (and it's aviation related!):
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-...rders/12660222

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2c4ef5fa71.jpg

galdian 14th Sep 2020 00:37

Should be followed up by:

" IT'S ALL ABOUT THE POLITICS STUPID! "

Roj approved 14th Sep 2020 01:23

1 Attachment(s)
Maybe this is a good idea?

Black Maria 14th Sep 2020 01:30

This says it all in relation to the Qld Borders.....

Sydney family wishing to see ill father in Queensland, finally granted permission after becoming AFL footballers.

Queensland’s Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk says she will allow a Sydney family to enter the state in order to see their critically ill father, after learning the family had become professional footballers.

The family took the unusual step of becoming professional athletes, after it became clear there was no other way to enter the state.

“We did consider becoming Tom Hanks and shooting a movie on the Gold Coast, but in the end we decided it would be easier to get on the list of an AFL club,” family member Emily Bryson said.

“In hindsight we should’ve just become an AFL administrator, rather than going through all of the training to become a player, but that’s in the past now”.

Premier Palaszczuk said she made no apologies for Queensland’s border restrictions. “I want to be very clear: we are doing this to keep all Queenslanders safe and to win an election. So unless your work is absolutely vital – like playing four quarters of footy or making a movie about Elvis Presley – you aren’t welcome”.


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