Well, now you mention it…

So you’d like to cherry pick bits and pieces of what’s in the NJS contact, but not all of it I presume?

Think I’ve wasted enough time with some of you miserable lot. I’m off to start getting pissed off that someone won more than me in The Cup.

I think that’s exactly what QF IR also did in the recent Winton negotiations. 😉

Not at all. I understand it is a good EBA. For convenience, I posted the clause which counters your supposition that such a clause might only existed in blue collar industries or that “no airline in their right mind” would agree to one, but also to satisfy your curiosity.

No Snoozer, what you posted was an EXPIRED Agreement. There is no “Escalation Clause” as far as I can tell in their 2022 Agreement. Salary inclusive of Super and 2% increases.

I wonder why it no longer exists? Maybe because it’s completely unsustainable for EXACTLY the reasons I specified.

Well at least you’re doing some research now.

It's rather comical that you think the reason that clause would be removed would be because they think it is going to cause the company to go broke. I think you'll find it had much more sinister IR reasons behind it (considering it was the first EBA post NJS merging into the QF group).

Any way I am done debating this, we clearly have different ideological views on how IR problems should be handled, and no point going around in circles.

Agreed. There’s little point to endless debate. Best of luck to us all, may the right result prevail.

FOI, if you think a wage provision tied to CPI would drive a profitable airline into loss then you've no place to lecture anyone on matters financial.

Wages remaining with CPI, even in an inflationary environment serves only to assure that the wage cost to the business doesn't change at all, and that the employees are protected from an unwarranted wage cut.

The fact is, this offer you're shamelessly pushing is a pay cut from when I started with the company. It's a pay cut in the face of increased productivity from me and my peers, reduced lifestyle provisions yet enormous execute pay.

Why should I accept a pay cut? We have as a pilot group continually increased our productivity to the company. 321s, low vis, RNP now down to 0.1. Now we have a new type to learn, with yet more pax, to operate medium hall international with widebody pax loads and the company has valued these additional benefits by the pilot body as not just zero, as worthless, but as deserving of a reduction in our pay.

And you want us to excitedly vote yes to it?!

No mate.

Both of the large, very profitable jet airlines I've worked for prior to Jetstar had exactly these sorts of clauses in the 3-4 year pay deals (RPI+x%) we signed up to, they weren't Australia based. People still whined about giving up too much and the +x% wasn't enough though.

...says a Pilot on an Internet Rumour Network, while lecturing other Pilots on how to vote on an EBA that determines their financial stability and future...

Let me lay it out for you...and then you can continue to have Fun while being Poor on that which you propose :ugh:

Consider an arbitrary Base Salary of circa $200 000.00 per year starting out in 2018:

Your Proposal versus a (Mediocre) CPI* + 0%**
(*) June Year-on-Year Figures
(**) Zero increase in Spending Power - Just maintaining Status Quo

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3% : $212 180.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $218 545.40
2024 + 3% : $225 101.76
2025 + 3% : $231 854.81

If you're still struggling with the finances as you alluded that Pilots do...then consider this:
To make your proposal work and thus ensure you have exactly the same spending power in 2025 than what you had before 2019, you are wagering your bets that CPI will be 1.288818% (or less) in 2023, 2024 and 2025.

Even if this was remotely possible, you'll be back to 2018 levels without everything that you've 'Sold' off the agreement to get there...

Maths is a Wonderful Thing :ok:

Airwork another that springs to mind. Might be expired too, though.

Nothing but scaremongering from the people who wanted PIA last time but are trying to scare everyone now.

Scaring us if this ends up in Fair work (after PIA and lock out) as we won't be able to negotiate or influence the outcome. Shouldn't the company also be scared if this ends up in fair work either as they also don't have any influence or negotiation either ? Why do we have to be the first ones (weakest) to back down?

Scared of losing some gains If we vote no.
Then we just keeping voting no.

Scaring us because we don't have a plan.
I thought that was your job and why I pay my union fees.
Why not continue the same plan (PIA) as last time?
Wasn't this the plan being pushed last time, because 3% wasn't enough yet now a 2 year pay freeze is ok?

I'm really confused.

Answers please

It can be, if you know how to do it. Basic English comprehension also helps. Let me fix your table for you.

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3+6 % : $224 910.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $231 656.12
2024 + 3% : $238 609.87
2025 + 3% : $245 766.10

Either you don't work for Jetstar and therefore don't have the details of the deal and are just trolling. Or I guess your English comprehension could be just that bad that you missed 6% and couldn't read the salary tables that have been promulgated.

Thats all great.

So why are we worth less that others doing the same job to the same standard?

FOI?

MCD

Yes, BOOT not included and therefore I referred to the CPI + 0% as Mediocre - Written in Bold

You don't improve your situation by tracking CPI, as CPI in itself is flawed to the downside. If you track CPI for a lifetime, you will be worse off than where you started. Hence my original comment about CPI + (X)% wherein (X) is the one (and only one) that rewards you for productivity improvements and 'give backs'.

CPI should be a given - It is known as Wage Growth, i.e a rise of wage adjusted for inflation - except if you like working for 'less' every year, then don't track CPI at your peril. But, if you do 2% More, is it fair to say that you expect 1% More (50/50 share between employee and employer), wherein that 1% is not part of CPI but over and above CPI - Raise your hand if you have not been doing (X)% more...

The current proposal (including BOOT) satisfies Wage Growth, but considering all the big numbers being thrown around, does not realistically satisfy CPI + 1% for someone who believes that they are giving significantly more each year.

Let's see how your numbers shape up when we include BOOT and compare that to someone that believes he/she deserves CPI + 1%

Your Proposal versus CPI* + 1%**
(*) June Year-on-Year Figures
(**) 1% increase in Spending Power

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (2.6%) : $205 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (0.7%) : $206 636.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (4.8%) : $216 554.95 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 9% : $224 540.00___versus___CPI + 1% (7.1%) : $231 930.35
2023 + 3% : $231 276.20
2024 + 3% : $238 214.49
2025 + 3% : $245 360.92

To make your proposal work and end up at $245 360.92 in 2025, while still ensuring your spending power improves by 1% each year, you are wagering your bets that CPI will be 0.894155% (or less) in 2023, 2024 and 2025.

On Cue, Daniel Ziffer explained it here tonight:

You Tube

Deleted because CBF

Now I have read the draft I can now make an informed decision.

Effectively this;

More work,less protections,
required work at home,
for less pay!

I hope to hell the pilot group see's through this crap.

FOI, are you saying QF is financially unsustainable if they had to pay salaries that don’t see their staff going backwards at soon-to-be double digits? We’re not talking about payrises here, not even close.

I think you make a potentially damaging claim if that is what you’re saying.

Out of interest, how much have ticket prices gone up? And how much has profit gone up during this challenging time?