Here we go, Pilots, the internet, and finances….

Don’t let operational frustrating nuisances post a COVID disaster influence one of the most important employment votes of your career. Be rational, things day-to-day operationally will improve. It’s in no-ones interests for them not too. This stuff is happening everywhere.

Is the eba a payrise in real terms or not. Simple question.

The remuneration numbers all go up quite a bit since 2018. Does it compete with current inflation? Probably just, but who knows where the end of that dragon lies.
You'll have to be the judge of 'real terms.'

I get your point, however I think some accountability being put on crewing/operations wouldn't hurt. One department that has slacked off significantly lately IMO.

With inflation over the years 2018 to 2021 equalling 7.23%, adding a very conservative 4%for 2022, that’s about 11.23% worth of inflation over that time since the last base pay increase. Putting in the EBA 6% for compliance plus 3% for 2021/2022 it’s up 10% on the base from 2018. Even with conservative figures the base is at least 1.23% below inflation on signing, then only 3% a year until 2025 which will no doubt be below the inflationary figures for a few years at least. So not a pay rise in real terms from that perspective.

That’s a very basic way of looking at it, but when you look at the fact that nearly all airline pilots except those in Qantas mainline are earning less than they were in the late 80’s it’s probably not a bad deal.

mmmmm, how's getting paid less than the 80's a good deal?

If it were true, which it may well be, the fact airline pilot jobs (opportunities) have expanded exponentially with the advent of leisure / low cost models, legacy airline exclusiveness and associated pay/conditions may have gone down across the industry comparatively. There’s been no “A Scale” in Cathay Pacific for many years as one example.

But back to the point. In terms of “real” increases (which I take it is in comparison to Inflation over time), difficult to say as others have put it, this year it would be an increase by my reckoning, but no-one can predict the future in terms of inflation and wages policies. We wouldn’t necessarily want a wages policy to be rigidly pinned to inflation would we? It may work in our favour occasionally, but there are times it wouldn’t.

This does however appear to be an extraordinary uplift in one hit, considering the state of affairs overall. I can’t see it getting better, but could certainly see it decline if we knock it back (again). Lock it in I say.

Which is why you have a clause that states it either increases at 3%, or CPI, whichever is greater.

It's a clause that many EBA's have outside the aviation industry, unfortunately though as you have illustrated, we seem to love to race towards the bottom.

I think extraordinary might be a bit of an overstatement, it’s basically a 21% increase over 7 years to 2025, 3% per annum with the 2 year pay freeze being nullified by a compliance payment to bring FO wages up to award which basically says it all really. It’s Qantas group wages policy with a bump they had to give otherwise it would never be voted up, with the usual gains and losses in conditions. Certainly not extraordinary, I’d say it’s basically what was expected at a minimum.

If it’s knocked back I’m not sure how it could decline it’s Qantas’s own IR policy that they would have to decline. That’s usual Qantas IR scaremongering, they’ve been doing it since the Dixon days.

The assertion that “we” love to engage in a race to the bottom is tired and frankly ridiculous.

EBA’s in some blue collar industries might have such a clause that you speak of (I’d be curious to see one), but we work in an industry where we’re paid six figure salaries (and are arguably unique being remunerated as “white collar” workers whilst enjoying the protections of an EBA). No airline in their right mind would allow for such a clause as you speak of, it could ultimately be the difference between profitability or not, or worse.We can dream, but let’s keep things realistic in the context of what we have to do now.

We’re going around in circles. We’re the second highest paid Pilots in the country, we can compare apples with mangoes all day long but we need to look at OUR station in life.

Look much broader than what some airline in the US is paying foreign contractors on a fixed term contract, or what Pilots were paid in the 80’s (???), or my favourite of all, who gets a better seat on duty travel…

When we declined 3% increases in 2019, COVID hit and we found ourselves in an extremely difficult bargaining environment after it. Has anyone been watching the international current affairs at the moment? I would suggest we’re potentially on the brink of at least one of several potential worldwide disasters brewing that will no doubt impact our business again. And we’re considering knocking this back and repeating the same?

21% (12% immediate) PLUS PLUS. Who gets that anywhere? I can’t believe some can’t see it.

It could decline by the award compliance payment. (Roughly 6%)

The F/O + S/O wages are written as a percentage of Captains wages. Given the 0,0,2,2% originally on offer, this did not bring the wages up to the award for some of the lower ranks, hence the award compliance payment.
Since then the wage policy has changed to 3%.

At 0,0,3,3% adjusted down as a % from the captains wage, this would cover the award for the lower ranks it originally did not when 2%. The award compliance has been maintained because it was agreed to 'in principal' prior to the wages policy changing (And probably with the knowledge of the sh!t fight it would cause.)
We could all argue they had to etc etc. Call it what you will, but they would have no obligation to maintain the compliance payment with the policy at 3% as it complies with the award.

Tug boat drivers and marine pilots are a profession that I would argue is at a similar profession level to us, get paid similar (more than the base of any FO in Australia, and most captains besides the red rat), and have this clause in their EBA. I don't see the ports going under because they can't turn a profit. You really do speak like a true manager, which I am guessing you are based on your continual distain towards improving workers conditions.

I'm not talking about woolies or maccas workers here.

Not really. If it were a 21% increase for 1 year, then maybe, but the EA has been expired for many years now with the resultant absence of pay rises. Now what we see is years of company approved pay rises (that equally apply to ALL other employees) coming in one hit. And it is suddenly viewed as extraordinary? Hardly.

Additionally, the 6% increase for BOOT compliance is necessary to ensure FWC approval of any proposed EA. Granted, the extension of this increase to ALL categories was not legally required however would have significantly diminished the chances of a yes vote.

Since the expiry of the current JQ EA we have seen the successful negotiation of new EA’s for mainline LH and SH, as well as a SH variation. Yet only now has an in-principle agreement been reached with Jetstar. It might be time for a bit of self-reflection as to missed opportunities during this protracted process rather than the back-slapping we see for a decidedly average deal involving no more than group policy annual increases and a mandated one-off raise along with multiple ‘gives’ for very little in return.

So we’re not comparing ourselves against Tiger anymore, Virgin anymore, US Regional contract pilots anyone. We’re comparing ourselves against Tug Boat drivers…How much more ridiculous can this get.

And youI’ve fallen for the last line of puerile defence in focusing on me with idiotic speculation rather than the issue at hand.

I just don’t agree with a handful of you who are intent on diseasing the minds of some of our lesser experienced Pilots with your miserable outlooks on life. I’m not going to allow the handful be the loudest voices in the room; too much at stake, too much lost last time we (well some) listened to you.

Yeah, correct. It is ridiculous that someone who drives a tug boat around can negotiate a better pay rise and salary than someone poling around in a multi million dollar jet.

Thanks for proving my point.

A rational post. I think from what you’re saying, you support it acknowledging we’ve come along way from where we were industrially, that pragmatism has been shown in best efforts for a yes vote. The disagreement lies in how it’s described, which is fine by me.

Better get your boat licence then.

It’s called an escalation clause and NJS has/had one in it’s 2017 EBA.

“From 1 July 2018, 2019 and 2020, the salary rates and overtime in this Schedule will be increased by 2.5% or CPI, whichever is the greater, and shall be cumulative on the previous year(s) increase.”

Many of the current and past EBAs are available via the FWC site so it may pay to have a good read.

Waits for FOI's response to be "better go be a NJS pilot then".