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Originally Posted by FOI
(Post 10646624)
Your guess is as good as mine Gordon. However the immortal words of General Yamamoto seem appropriate. |
There's always the CP role at TT that's just become available... |
Let’s look at this from a different angle...
I know, appreciate & understand you all work your backsides off in a “thankless” and sometimes unforgiving industry. And how I envy the opportunity to earn a steady six-figure salary that comes with that. Granted, the majority of you have spent an immeasurable amount of personal time and finances to get yourselves into a position to fly for airlines after the hard-yards have been put into GA and sacrifices made. Let’s look at this from a different perspective: say, someone who has also spent considerable time, personal wealth and training to also be responsible for human life and also “works for the man”? Sadly, I see an incredible amount of self-entitlement on here. There are those of us who do it not for the money & not for the glory. If you are so hell-bent on earning such a decent wage then perhaps consider working for another employer, becoming part of the management team (of which there seems to be a common uprising against) and put your own sanity, likelihood and even personal liability on the line too. We’re all one fvck-up away from humility. I completely agree with pay-parity in the industry and in a perfect world this would reign true. Unfortunately we don’t live in that world. But to come here and argue your points whilst forgetting the real reason you decided to become pilots in the first place seems - to me at least - like you have forgotten that at the end of the day if it weren’t for these “evil” corporations, you’d likely be doing bank-runs in a 310 earning scraps. As for fatigue... try doing 10-12 hour shifts, being on call for 21 days straight for 24 hours a day whilst being responsible for human lives in extremely challenging and dynamic situations and you might find that at the end of the day your profession isn’t so demanding after all. We all choose our paths in life and this is not about being self-righteous in the slightest. This is about putting things in perspective. Our working lives are 99% boredom and 1% scared-sh1tless panic. But don’t claim you’re “hard done by”. I’m not. I chose my path as did you. |
Yamamoto was an Admiral. Just saying. |
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 10647385)
The only quote I can remember from Yamamoto, and I am paraphrasing is "Really, you want to attack the Americans, are guys @#$ng crazy!" and his last quote "Are they the planes our German allies call the fork-tailed devils?"
I think “I fear we have only awakened a sleeping giant”, or words to that effect is what FOI May be referring to. Happy to be corrected though. Mmm...A sleeping giant. Ironic maybe? |
Originally Posted by 3_Green_Lights
(Post 10647257)
I know, appreciate & understand you all work your backsides off in a “thankless” and sometimes unforgiving industry. And how I envy the opportunity to earn a steady six-figure salary that comes with that. Granted, the majority of you have spent an immeasurable amount of personal time and finances to get yourselves into a position to fly for airlines after the hard-yards have been put into GA and sacrifices made. Let’s look at this from a different perspective: say, someone who has also spent considerable time, personal wealth and training to also be responsible for human life and also “works for the man”? Sadly, I see an incredible amount of self-entitlement on here. There are those of us who do it not for the money & not for the glory. If you are so hell-bent on earning such a decent wage then perhaps consider working for another employer, becoming part of the management team (of which there seems to be a common uprising against) and put your own sanity, likelihood and even personal liability on the line too. We’re all one fvck-up away from humility. I completely agree with pay-parity in the industry and in a perfect world this would reign true. Unfortunately we don’t live in that world. But to come here and argue your points whilst forgetting the real reason you decided to become pilots in the first place seems - to me at least - like you have forgotten that at the end of the day if it weren’t for these “evil” corporations, you’d likely be doing bank-runs in a 310 earning scraps. As for fatigue... try doing 10-12 hour shifts, being on call for 21 days straight for 24 hours a day whilst being responsible for human lives in extremely challenging and dynamic situations and you might find that at the end of the day your profession isn’t so demanding after all. We all choose our paths in life and this is not about being self-righteous in the slightest. This is about putting things in perspective. Our working lives are 99% boredom and 1% scared-sh1tless panic. But don’t claim you’re “hard done by”. I’m not. I chose my path as did you. |
As for fatigue... try doing 10-12 hour shifts, being on call for 21 days straight for 24 hours a day whilst being responsible for human lives in extremely challenging and dynamic situations and you might find that at the end of the day your profession isn’t so demanding after all. |
As for fatigue... try doing 10-12 hour shifts, being on call for 21 days straight for 24 hours a day whilst being responsible for human lives in extremely challenging and dynamic situations and you might find that at the end of the day your profession isn’t so demanding after all. We on the other hand don’t have that luxury so if we stuff up, hundreds die and we’ll be held accountable. (thrown under the bus) Therefore, the greatest risk to the highest number of people would be in aviation but that doesn’t seem to even be a consideration to you. |
Originally Posted by 3_Green_Lights
(Post 10647257)
Hilarious drivel.
You recognize we invested considerable money to get here, have considerable responsibility and agree entirely with pay parity, yet think we should remain the lowest paid pilot pilots among our competitors, despite working the hardest, flying the largest planes, doing the longest sectors, the most sectors, having the least days off because.... we wanted to be pilots? 1/10 troll attempt. |
It's surprising how little the management crowd want to pay crews for doing the actual job.
I'm fairly certain they have forgotten what the core business actually is. If you asked a type like 3Green what the Airline actually does, maybe he would look down at his shoes and eventually answer something about 'Marketplace satisfaction markers' or 'Consumer Indexing' or 'Customer Feedback assurity'. Funny how little 'they' think we are worth for performing the task of the Airline's actual intent, Moving passengers from A to B safely, in comfort and as seamlessly as possible. It's almost like we should thank 3Green for the opportunity of making him money. |
3 greens is another Management troll. Look at the salary of someone with far fewer responsibilities and training gets to understand how poorly paid you are. |
becoming part of the management team (of which there seems to be a common uprising against) and put your own sanity, likelihood and even personal liability on the line too. |
Originally Posted by T-Vasis
(Post 10647183)
Has Rick left?
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As an interested observer I often have to describe to pilots who ask why I left Australia how being a pilot in aus is so bad. 1. Poor pay 2. Slow progression 3. Terrrible short haul rosters 4. high tax 5. high cost of living I commend any pilot in Australia who trying to at least tackle point number 1. Fight the fight |
A payrise for all the pilots at the star would only cost the company what, ~20mil? Whats so diffucult
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I’m not a Jetstar pilot nor do I have a copy of the log of claims but would it be fair to say that the Jetstar pilots have agreed to a 3% pay increase but are seeking changes in conditions, primarily rostering issues? An easing of rostering conditions to improve fatigue outcomes and manage overall lifestyle would usually result in less hours flown. Wouldn’t that then mean the Pilots, who are paid by the hour, are actually seeking an effective pay cut after the company-wide agreed 3% is applied? Simplistic and possibly naive I know, but that is a fairly significant counter argument to the claim that the pilots are seeking a 15% pay rise. It’s amusing too, that Jetstar pilots are offered a flat 3%, no negotiation will be tolerated whilst at Qantas you can also have the same 3% but we need to talk about a reduction in conditions across the board to ensure a couple of ultra long haul sectors are viable. |
Originally Posted by C441
(Post 10647800)
It’s amusing too, that Jetstar pilots are offered a flat 3%, no negotiation will be tolerated whilst at Qantas you can also have the same 3% but we need to talk about a reduction in conditions across the board to ensure a couple of ultra long haul sectors are viable. What I’m trying to get at is that the pilots there have been given a reduction in conditions before the EBA negotiations even began! This reduction in conditions is a group wide issue for pilots,I just wish for the sake of all the pilots in the group all the unions would set aside their differences and provide a united voice to the Qantas group that the 3% limit just isn’t acceptable. It’s the only way they will take notice. I still live in hope. |
Originally Posted by C441
(Post 10647800)
I’m not a Jetstar pilot nor do I have a copy of the log of claims but would it be fair to say that the Jetstar pilots have agreed to a 3% pay increase but are seeking changes in conditions, primarily rostering issues? An easing of rostering conditions to improve fatigue outcomes and manage overall lifestyle would usually result in less hours flown. Wouldn’t that then mean the Pilots, who are paid by the hour, are actually seeking an effective pay cut after the company-wide agreed 3% is applied? Simplistic and possibly naive I know, but that is a fairly significant counter argument to the claim that the pilots are seeking a 15% pay rise. It’s amusing too, that Jetstar pilots are offered a flat 3%, no negotiation will be tolerated whilst at Qantas you can also have the same 3% but we need to talk about a reduction in conditions across the board to ensure a couple of ultra long haul sectors are viable. Whats really amusing about the long haul EBA is that everyone else in Qantas can have the 3% for no offsets but the offsets they want from us are to commence immediately even thou the 350 won’t arrive till 2023. I think it’s called having your cake and eating it to. I hope the Jetstar pilots are successful. Qantas management are morally bankrupt. |
Jetsrar Pilots might be able to correct me if I’m wrong, but from my understanding that since the beloved “optimizer” has been introduced there the daily density of flying has reduced to the point that pilots are basically working 1-3 extra days a month to get the same flying as pre optimizer, the only people benefitting off this is the company. The company will do whatever it sees fit and no matter what you write in your eba they will win. Guys are demoting themselves, going part time, starting businesses, looking overseas or just leaving the industry. All this is music to the company’s ears as they would rather those that are not happy just move on. You can simply replace them with a school leaver. One needs to certainly stand up for their rights but in the end the conditions are not going to improve in the industry so you’ll need to either do as the above or manage best you can in your current role. Certainly your company is making a lot of cash so the 3% or nothing attitude I understand is wearing thin! All the best, but rostering and company win in the end. |
Originally Posted by Berealgetreal
(Post 10647955)
Heads up for the JQ pilots. Over at the opposition a lot of effort went into log of claims to address lifestyle issues (getting worked like a dog, living out of a suitcase to mention just a few of many). It seemed to work over a couple of rosters but in the end it ended up worse than ever as levers were pulled in the background. The company will do whatever it sees fit and no matter what you write in your eba they will win. Guys are demoting themselves, going part time, starting businesses, looking overseas or just leaving the industry. All this is music to the company’s ears as they would rather those that are not happy just move on. You can simply replace them with a school leaver. One needs to certainly stand up for their rights but in the end the conditions are not going to improve in the industry so you’ll need to either do as the above or manage best you can in your current role. Certainly your company is making a lot of cash so the 3% or nothing attitude I understand is wearing thin! All the best, but rostering and company win in the end. |
Originally Posted by cLeArIcE
(Post 10647971)
Unfortunately sick days and fatigue calls are needed just to manage one's roster on a regular monthly basis.
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Fraud days if you want to call them that. What is personal leave supposed to be used for if not to manage ones fitness to operate? |
Originally Posted by Berealgetreal
(Post 10647955)
Heads up for the JQ pilots. Over at the opposition a lot of effort went into log of claims to address lifestyle issues (getting worked like a dog, living out of a suitcase to mention just a few of many). It seemed to work over a couple of rosters but in the end it ended up worse than ever as levers were pulled in the background. |
In the posters defence UFD and FTG days are there specifically for that purpose, don’t forget FTG mitigation is joint responsibility and if a pilot thinks they are not FIT to fly for ANY reason it is up to them to remove themselves from that duty. FIT doesn’t just mean sick. |
This morning friends are stuck in Hawaii courtesy of Jetstar, cancellations at 12 hours notice at the end of their Hawaiian holiday, all hotels full and no seats until 2-3 Jan perhaps. This was apparently a Qantas code share flight as well - there wasn’t a Qantas mainline alternative flight. He and his family are now venting all over facebook, instagram, Twitter, etc. Pilot industrial action will no doubt be blamed. This just reinforces people’s perceptions that Qantas Group are unreliable and poor value to boot. |
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10648558)
This morning friends are stuck in Hawaii courtesy of Jetstar, cancellations at 12 hours notice at the end of their Hawaiian holiday, all hotels full and no seats until 2-3 Jan perhaps. This was apparently a Qantas code share flight as well - there wasn’t a Qantas mainline alternative flight. He and his family are now venting all over facebook, instagram, Twitter, etc. Pilot industrial action will no doubt be blamed. This just reinforces people’s perceptions that Qantas Group are unreliable and poor value to boot. Its more a case of ‘which one is broken this week’. |
Give it some space, it’ll fix itself. |
Originally Posted by wheels_down
(Post 10648570)
sunny VKD is broken. Lemon Liners are not known for ongoing reliability. Its more a case of ‘which one is broken this week’. |
Are the Lemon Liners intrinsically unreliable or is it a matter of QF maintaining them to the bare minimum like they do with some other types? |
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieger
(Post 10648790)
Are the Lemon Liners intrinsically unreliable or is it a matter of QF maintaining them to the bare minimum like they do with some other types? |
A payrise for all the pilots at the star would only cost the company what, ~20mil? Whats so diffucult Are the Lemon Liners intrinsically unreliable or is it a matter of QF maintaining them to the bare minimum like they do with some other types? |
One acronym for you T-Vasis. FWA. It’s not all about what either side wants. |
I guarantee Jetstar will not budge and will burn cash instead to ensure no precedent is set. Your actions will be futile, unfortunately At the very least, have SOME pride. Don't just bend over and spread the cheeks and let them have at you ad infinitum. Sheesh. Good luck to the JQ crews. |
I assume FWA Commissioners are chairman’s lounge members. |
Originally Posted by A little birdie
(Post 10648912)
Qantas will likely view FWA determination as a win. It was largely a status quo outcome the previous times Qantas was at FWA.
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Originally Posted by A little birdie
(Post 10648912)
Qantas will likely view FWA determination as a win. It was largely a status quo outcome the previous times Qantas was at FWA.
It’s worth remembering that it’s the government of the day that appoints Fair Work Commissioners who will ultimately be the ones arbitrating an outcome - and that the Government over the last 6 years is not exactly a friend of the Unions. All you have to do is look at some of the previous Ministers for Industrial Relations - Eric Abetz and Michaelia Cash (very right wing members of the Liberal Party). If this goes to Arbitration - look for the Company to be asking for less than 3% pay increases. Good on the JQ pilots for taking it up to the Company and arguing against this arbitrary wages policy. However I am not sure what the strategy is from here (or what it really was from the start - but that’s for another discussion) and unfortunately the pilot group may find out just how unfairly stacked the ‘system’ is in favour of big business in this country. |
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10648962)
I assume FWA Commissioners are chairman’s lounge members. Soft Corruption works a treat. The heads of ASIC, APRA, ACCC et al are all likely members on the non disclosed, non discussed, non audited example of Australian corruption. The only part of Fair Work Australia that is fair is the name. The "commission" stacked with right wing zealots appointed by the same idiots that are happy to fiddle (in Hawaii) why Sydney burns. |
Soft corruption- is that like being half pregnant? |
Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34
(Post 10647433)
Mmm...A sleeping giant. Ironic maybe? I wish the Jetstar pilot group every success, and an EBA that reflects their efforts. And that’s a great deal higher than 3%. Joyce has done consistently mediocre work, whilst earning more than the CEOs of the worlds most profitable airlines. Alan wouldn’t put up with 3%. And nor would “General” Yamamoto” 😂 (where do they find these people ? No wonder he’s so grateful for the status quo) |
Perhaps the MBA thought it was a subsidiary of General Motors.... |
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