Oh dear, you really are naive.

Most other industries that have similar union density to that of pilots (maritime, mining and construction just to name a few), that have a significantly trained/educated skill level, get paid more to work less, have better conditions and have negotiated pay increases in line with or above inflation (generally with clauses that increase at a certain rate, or CPI if higher).

But sure, just keep squirting crap out to suit your narrative.

This EA is rapidly becoming a vote not only for working conditions for a pilot body but also a vote on the continued rellevance of the AFAP within the Australian airline landscape.

Get this one wrong again and you stand to lose a lot of PAYING MEMBERS.

After all, this EA is about the needs of Jetstar Pilots isn't it? It is certainly not about the needs of the AFAP. { See previous FOI posts. }

Fly safe.

MCD

As much As I don't like this deal (some things are okay, doesn't go far enough) and the constant bickering between the unions frustrates the hell out of me, I do feel a bit sorry for both unions. Do not underestimate how much hatred and anger there is amongst the pilot group for JQ. This is not just frustration or a dislike of a few management characters etc, this is 100% pure hatred for the company. They feel over worked, under paid, not respected anywhere near their pears at QF or link and they have had enough. There is zero good will left.

Unfortunately for the AFAP (did they not read the room?) Some of that is now being directed at them. This agreement does not match the expectations of many. They are upset and are voicing that. But, it was always going to be difficult to get their message across the rage and hatred.

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I do, because I still have to be engaged when I am signed off, also, its just another stone eroded away from condtions.

Copy, I do have my eye on the big picture and not short term money. How about you see the big picture and negotiate something better! rostered sign off by 17:00 or 19:00 before a DDO or AL and not 22:30 and not back on 05:00 two days later. you just keep thinking small and work your DDO for WDO for that extra money.

Good, thats something we really need to hold onto not pi$$ away for a few extra $$$

You say peak for WDO, you're obviously very deluded or in a very small base, ML, SY and BNE as far as I know have CAPT and FOs doing multiple WDO some I hear doing 10 a month all yr round.

As for the CPI argument, well we were the masters of our own demise 3 years ago in our actions. We put ourselves behind, sorry, that’s the reality. And the “what we should be on anyway “ argument, sorry but again that’s ridiculous. All the company has to do is satisfy the BOOT, they’re under no legal obligations here to do anything but that. This well exceeds the BOOT as far as I can tell.

If its good for the company, It is not good for us, thats how EBA work. considering the fast nature that this has been put forward there is background stuff that the company will be sneaking in that we will only realize when its to late. PIA I am against stop work that achieves nothing, something as simple as not working on DDO will slow things up alot, but then, we will need you to stop working DDO and by the sounds you would not.

The AFAP had a role to play in managing realistic expectations. Unfortunately, their leadership throughout this process in setting those expectations (through conduct and communications) is now coming back to bite.

Layover highline is worth 1% to narrowbody pilots on current layover hours, and 3% to widebody pilots on current layover hours. Most reasonable pilots can see layover hours are increasing at Jetstar. You wanted the iPad agreement back which would put everyone behind at least 3%. Vote NO if you think the LR's and XLR's aren't coming, or vote NO if you think they will be doing shark patrol up and down the east coast. I don't care why you want to vote NO, but I do want to know what your plan is if this agreement gets voted down.

Lookleft, do you even work for Jetstar?

What is it you want?

What are you going to do to get it?

You criticize the AFAP's PIA, yet have no logical plan for voting this agreement down. What is going to make the company give more? A sternly worded PA and red tie campaign?

Actually it's a 22.9% increase in base pay over the life of the agreement. On 1 July 2025 base pay will be 22.9% higher than it is today. Plus all the other stuff.

No there won't. There are nil extra standby days. It's still 3 below 75 hours.

If SYD, ADL or OOL crew miss curfew and then operate / pax home the next day, they get a full WDO. As far as I can tell, aircraft don't care if it's a curfew port before going tech. Also, if they are pushing curfew and still manage to land, but set the park brake after 2245 they will still get the 4 hrs hard credit as their sign off will be after 2300.

Are you positive on that? the company wants this, the union never squashed it, so stand-by for the document and see.



Maybe I am being to sceptical, it is all in the wording. Email from AFAP of the in principle 30/9/22 has "sign off" we all know the company we work for. Needs to be very clear with "sign on when a DDO was roster-ed and sign off occurs out of base before 23:00 the FCM to get at a full WDO payment and is rostered most direct flight to home base whether operating or paxing" just needs to be iron clad either way, otherwise they will play it as just sign off 22:30 day before and you're out of base have a DIL instead.


This is my concern, ppl just jumping at 2/5ths of f all money and giving away conditions which is all we have thinking its a pay rise when it is not,let be clear on that! it will be all in the wording and I guarantee it will favor the company to use the concessions in a much worse way than intended.

Qantas Group (Read JETSTAR incl) are on track for record profits in 2023.

The urgency to lock in this deal by the company is glaringly obvious..? Lock in these fools for another 3 years with no lifestyle provisions BEFORE this is announced.. Burn them out up into Asia in their new neos every week. Away from home life. Bosses enjoying their bonuses and kpi’s. No PIA over Xmas. Massive bonuses. High Fives.

The ‘negotiators’ deserve an Oscar for best acting in a drama series, and scaremongering.

Case in point, anyone who votes to approve this deal is signing away their future and the futures of the people who will be employed in years to come...

Jetstar is not a viable long term employment option.

Jetstar F/O here.

I'm looking at spending the next 25 years of my life flying planes.

I have a growing family with young kids at home.

I want to be able to afford them a decent middle-class living standard in an Australian capital city (where most Jetstar pilots are based by the way) AND I want to have enough free time to be able to see them growing up.

The proposed EBA does not fulfil these requirements so it's a NO vote for me.

Very simple decision.

As an F/O, what exactly were you expecting from the proposed agreement?
There has been a lot of talk here about lifestyle, but not too many answers to that.

By all means vote No if that’s what you feel, it’s your right. But I don’t see too many realistic proposals being put forward in place of what’s been negotiated.

You’ll be amazed at the realistic proposals that’ll suddenly appear with a NO vote and the threat of PIA over Xmas…

I’m not asking about the company, I’m asking what people were/are expecting?

The best thing about this job was the lack of time away from home base, the Optimiser has f&*ked that and changed the entire dynamic of this job. Any EBA needs some serious lifestyle provisions as the rosters generated by the optimiser are not sustainable.

Of course that is an option, but how did it work out last time compared to what was on the table at the time?

It is more a matter of what terms and conditions I expect from an airline I'm supposed to work for a quarter of a century or more without losing my health and/or family in the process.

Three basic items come to mind immediately:

1) lower EFA threshold. It should be 60-65 hours max;

2) minimum credit for standby during roster building. At the moment it is nil and it shouldn't be;

2) with the weird multi-day trips that the optimizer is spitting out without apparent regard for JBid and the arrival of the LRs and XLRs, there are going to be more and more overnights. There should be some rules around how many overnights can be rostered and how they should be spread around the crews, at least for the Airbus fleet.

Just my two cents

- A MUCH lower EFA with a REAL open time system…. Which, mind you, was supposed to have been negotiated under the current EBA.

- A complete redesign of the ridiculous leave system.

- JBID facilitating high density flying requests with resulting DFD’s. Currently JBID and the optimiser are programmed to provided minimum days off regardless of density preferences.

- The ability to formally bid IN for overnights or OUT. The people that want them aren’t getting enough, the people that don’t want them are getting to many.

- “Vacant” duties to be assigned within 2 hours. No more of this rubbish 3am phone call on just about EVERY standby because crewing are “keeping their options open”.

Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.



A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.

Ask many a Virgin pilot about moving to a system with a low MGH - they hate it. Do not underestimate the importance of a guaranteed salary. Any attempt to move to a lower overtime threshold should be resisted at every step unless it comes with a significant increase to your hourly rate.

The risk of the business is transferred to the pilot under a low overtime system. Funny how that risk is never offset by reward….

Well said. Most entitlements are calculated on base salary. So all annual leave, LSL, sick leave, redundancy etc. Borrowing capacity from the bank does not necessarily have overtime in the equation.
Understand and be careful what you wish for.

What do I want?
1. A lower EFA is okay, but it must be in a conjunction with an increase in base salary. I would accept the proposed pay in the agreement but at 60 hours.
2. Treated in the exact same way as QF/ Qlink when it comes to staff and duty travel, lounge's etc. Sick and tired of being treated like a piece of garbage. Even on JQ, Having to rely on the goodwill of ground staff to find me a half decent seat and beg for free cup of tea or a sandwich on board is degrading and disrespectful to the position I hold.
3. Open time system. I have no interest in working hard. Some people do. Give people some Level of control in their lives.
4. A fair rostering/ bidding system that results in more days Off if you work harder. JQ are taking the piss at the moment.
5. I like over nights, so generally jbid work's for me but they should be distributed fairer. Give them to the people that want them. I'll forgo a few days at home if it means no 4 sector days X 5. Others are ok with that. Again it's about providing choice and bit of control. Loosing control terrifies Jetstar.
6. Same standard of hotels as QF
7. Same standard of crew meals as QF and a return of crew meals on trans Tasman ops. (Maybe opt in?) It's a pain trying to organise food but still comply with lags etc. It's an international flight FFS.
8. An end to the games, lies and dishonesty subjected on us from crewing and work force planning.
9. Adequate crew number's
10. Not treating the FRMS limits as a target. I thought the tenth time I called in fatigued on a late to early transition they'd get the message but I guess not....

That's all a joke by the way....none of those thing's have any hope of happening. I've (almost) come to terms with that I will always be seen as a lower class piece of **** by the QF group. So instead Of being angry, Im trying to embrace it and focus on being a piece of **** employee in return. I still get angry occasionally but it's getting less. Look after my pax, look after my crew and f*CK jetstar.

So you finally have a chance to make a real change for good and address some of the issues you outlined above, yet you’ll vote Yes purely to take the cash. You’re the type of buffoon that gets food poisoning at the same restaurant but continues to go back because they keep giving you discount vouchers.

I worry for the FO's who are going to spend 25-30 years in this company. A 248k base isn't that far away? It's miles away from the pay people should have, I would strongly suggest you work out pay per hour, if you're not shocked work it out for the FO's instead, it's a good time to start thinking collectively as a pilot ground.

I would caution anyone making their mind up enthusiastically or not before you have the final wording of the document in your hand, you run the risk of looking like a fool.

Also, the beers are free at the roadshow.

Thanks for making it personal, it says more about you than me.

Unashamedly I’ll vote yes. We are being offered what is conservatively a 25% increase in pay, and you want me to put it all at risk because you can’t figure out how to report fatigued? I think it’s pretty smart to lock in the pay rise, fatigue reports will fix the crap rostering when enough pilots do them. History has shown they work eventually.

Anyone who thinks a 25% increase is not a good deal is a fool. I have spoken to a rep, and I’m pretty happy with the answers. There are plenty looking like fools whipping up negative sentiment on Telegram. The newfound interest in the welfare of SOs is laughable. Nothing like a bit of self interest.

Bit ordinary to attack someone because they feel it’s a good deal. They have as much right to vote one way as you do another.

To say certain people are ruining for the f/o’s with 25/30 years left is silly. Most people there in whichever seat, probably still have 25/30 years left.

I do find that statement interesting when the ink is still wet on the joining agreement where they signed on for such terms and conditions. Is there some evil empire behind the curtain that suddenly reduces the salary once you are hired or did they look at the big shiny jet and forget to check the fine print before jumping off the cliff?

It's noble to be looking for better conditions whenever possible, but to smack down an existing long term pilot who's happy where they are when you're a new hire is not going to make the flight deck a happy place.

For all the rubber neckers who want to know what the problems with Jetstar are look no further than clearice's post at #863. It represents the general consensus of what the main issues are. JQ management would also do well to look at that list.

Pretty much sums up the issue, "old pilot happy so everyone is happy", but respectfully this old pilot does not agree.

Post 863 strikes the issues quite nicely.

As stated, I would caution anyone to make their minds up before the finaly wording is released - that is directed at the pilot group, ALL JPF members, and especially people who say "I have spoken to the negotiating team", don't be foolish.

Looking no further down the list (most of which I agree with) item 1 is going to be an issue and a pretty big one at that.
25% pay rise over the life of the agreement with 20% less work. I encourage and applaud optimism, but it’s an EBA not a fairytale.

Not having a crack, but do people think that is realistically achievable? I’m keen to see how exactly that’s even do-able…. Just not showing up for work for a few weeks is unlikely to achieve that, so what’s the plan to get it?

I acknowledge that, but we are so far behind everyone else any increase has to be substantial to even call it an increase. People asked What we want. That's what I want. I'm not saying we're going to get it. But we can do dam better than this deal.
Look, everyone will vote how they want. I actually think the EBA will get up. You keep a Hungry dog in a cage and feed it once a week it's hardly going to complain about getting an extra smacko for being a good boy.
I'm just... tierd. I'm tired of the lies and empty promises, I'm tired of feeling subhuman because I work for jetstar. I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall every day I go to work. I'm sick of being the "magic man." (Didn't you know that I can magically fix every departments lack of resources, tell them how to do their jobs, catch all their mistakes and do my own job?) and, I'm tired of being tired...
So yes, I'm ready to face the consequences of a no vote. They want the agreement signed just as much as we do. They are rolling in cash and they need us. They can afford to lube up that pineapple before inserting it in me.

How much is a JQ FO behind a VA FO (when comparing guaranteed income only/base salary)?

Also have to consider PIA has to be approved, you can't just stop work or there can be severe penalties. That really needs to be discussed with reps as well, if you vote an agreement down that is already offering 25% what are the chances of actually getting PIA approval. Not saying you won't but it starts getting into territory that the company is negotiating but the pilots are not being realistic. That starts getting into the realm of proving you are not causing economic harm to said company and the economy for the hell of it.

Again not against it, but you need to really understand where you stand if pushing for big gains and holding to it, I doubt it will be an easy road. JQ getting big gains is good for everybody, but you may have to do it over successive EBAs.

I do feel for you, but the whole premise JQ was started on was exactly what you are describing, running on fumes with everyone maxed out so there's no fat is what a low cost carrier is about. The real MO for these operations is that they don't want people to stick around, just have enough that do and keep getting more from the vine on their way up the system. What you are wanting to do is change the nature of the company itself, I doubt that will happen. Any Exec is going to tell you that you are important and valued, behind the eyes they just see you as a cost factor and another monkey in the line up spoiling their outcomes. That is the beast you are fighting.

All valid points mate. I agree with you that it will need to be done over successive EBAs etc. But that 25% gain was not out of the goodness of their heart. They basically had no choice. That's how terrible our current agreement is.
As for not wanting people to stick around, we don't have enough crew as it is. How many FOs have interviewed for QF in the last month or two? A lot.. They are all happy to go be SOs rather than stay at jetstar. Some are probably not far Off widebody FO or captains spot. What does that tell you?
They might not care if people stick around but I don't know where these extra crew are going to come from. Lot's of aircraft on the way.

As someone from the outside looking in, can someone explain where the 25% pay rise on the base salary is coming from, if all they are offering is a 3% per year increase (in line with the QF wages policy)?

Or is it just like EFA where the pay rise is significantly inflated after aligning with the pilot award (i.e. minimum wage)

Yes that’s a large part of it.
I was incorrect anyway, it isn’t 25% it’s 22.8% as has already been mentioned.
Last pay rise was back in 2018, a few years at 0% then a few years of 3% then another 3 years (life of the agreement) at 3%

Nothing I disagree with, but you are fighting a monster that's stuck in a 1980s method of thinking they can screw down wages, they were born to drive a wedge in the employee market, now they don't have the supply anymore and its going to take serious restructuring to change the mindset. Some will send the company broke from lack of crew before admitting they need to pay more, offer better conditions and be more selective so that those they do pay more are actually right for the job. JQ is going to have to work out what it wants to be to the market, especially if Rex (very unlikely) decide they want to offer better conditions as they expand the jet fleet, but who knows the bottom feeders are going to have to compete for what few experienced pilots there are or not be bottom feeders anymore.

We have to try though. What's the alternative? Just roll over and say thank you sir may I have another?
Every little victory, every little step in the right direction all adds up. This new agreement is hardly that.
Just hope I can find a way out of this hell hole soon enough.

The young blokes going to the regionals in the US will be paid more than you fellas soon.