Well, now you mention it…

So you’d like to cherry pick bits and pieces of what’s in the NJS contact, but not all of it I presume?

Think I’ve wasted enough time with some of you miserable lot. I’m off to start getting pissed off that someone won more than me in The Cup.

I think that’s exactly what QF IR also did in the recent Winton negotiations. 😉

Not at all. I understand it is a good EBA. For convenience, I posted the clause which counters your supposition that such a clause might only existed in blue collar industries or that “no airline in their right mind” would agree to one, but also to satisfy your curiosity.

No Snoozer, what you posted was an EXPIRED Agreement. There is no “Escalation Clause” as far as I can tell in their 2022 Agreement. Salary inclusive of Super and 2% increases.

I wonder why it no longer exists? Maybe because it’s completely unsustainable for EXACTLY the reasons I specified.

Well at least you’re doing some research now.

It's rather comical that you think the reason that clause would be removed would be because they think it is going to cause the company to go broke. I think you'll find it had much more sinister IR reasons behind it (considering it was the first EBA post NJS merging into the QF group).

Any way I am done debating this, we clearly have different ideological views on how IR problems should be handled, and no point going around in circles.

Agreed. There’s little point to endless debate. Best of luck to us all, may the right result prevail.

FOI, if you think a wage provision tied to CPI would drive a profitable airline into loss then you've no place to lecture anyone on matters financial.

Wages remaining with CPI, even in an inflationary environment serves only to assure that the wage cost to the business doesn't change at all, and that the employees are protected from an unwarranted wage cut.

The fact is, this offer you're shamelessly pushing is a pay cut from when I started with the company. It's a pay cut in the face of increased productivity from me and my peers, reduced lifestyle provisions yet enormous execute pay.

Why should I accept a pay cut? We have as a pilot group continually increased our productivity to the company. 321s, low vis, RNP now down to 0.1. Now we have a new type to learn, with yet more pax, to operate medium hall international with widebody pax loads and the company has valued these additional benefits by the pilot body as not just zero, as worthless, but as deserving of a reduction in our pay.

And you want us to excitedly vote yes to it?!

No mate.

Both of the large, very profitable jet airlines I've worked for prior to Jetstar had exactly these sorts of clauses in the 3-4 year pay deals (RPI+x%) we signed up to, they weren't Australia based. People still whined about giving up too much and the +x% wasn't enough though.

...says a Pilot on an Internet Rumour Network, while lecturing other Pilots on how to vote on an EBA that determines their financial stability and future...

Let me lay it out for you...and then you can continue to have Fun while being Poor on that which you propose :ugh:

Consider an arbitrary Base Salary of circa $200 000.00 per year starting out in 2018:

Your Proposal versus a (Mediocre) CPI* + 0%**
(*) June Year-on-Year Figures
(**) Zero increase in Spending Power - Just maintaining Status Quo

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3% : $212 180.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $218 545.40
2024 + 3% : $225 101.76
2025 + 3% : $231 854.81

If you're still struggling with the finances as you alluded that Pilots do...then consider this:
To make your proposal work and thus ensure you have exactly the same spending power in 2025 than what you had before 2019, you are wagering your bets that CPI will be 1.288818% (or less) in 2023, 2024 and 2025.

Even if this was remotely possible, you'll be back to 2018 levels without everything that you've 'Sold' off the agreement to get there...

Maths is a Wonderful Thing :ok:

Airwork another that springs to mind. Might be expired too, though.

Nothing but scaremongering from the people who wanted PIA last time but are trying to scare everyone now.

Scaring us if this ends up in Fair work (after PIA and lock out) as we won't be able to negotiate or influence the outcome. Shouldn't the company also be scared if this ends up in fair work either as they also don't have any influence or negotiation either ? Why do we have to be the first ones (weakest) to back down?

Scared of losing some gains If we vote no.
Then we just keeping voting no.

Scaring us because we don't have a plan.
I thought that was your job and why I pay my union fees.
Why not continue the same plan (PIA) as last time?
Wasn't this the plan being pushed last time, because 3% wasn't enough yet now a 2 year pay freeze is ok?

I'm really confused.

Answers please

It can be, if you know how to do it. Basic English comprehension also helps. Let me fix your table for you.

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (1.6%) : $203 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI (-0.3%): $202 590.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI (3.8%) : $210 288.84 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 3+6 % : $224 910.00___versus___CPI (6.1%) : $223 116.45
2023 + 3% : $231 656.12
2024 + 3% : $238 609.87
2025 + 3% : $245 766.10

Either you don't work for Jetstar and therefore don't have the details of the deal and are just trolling. Or I guess your English comprehension could be just that bad that you missed 6% and couldn't read the salary tables that have been promulgated.

Thats all great.

So why are we worth less that others doing the same job to the same standard?

FOI?

MCD

Yes, BOOT not included and therefore I referred to the CPI + 0% as Mediocre - Written in Bold

You don't improve your situation by tracking CPI, as CPI in itself is flawed to the downside. If you track CPI for a lifetime, you will be worse off than where you started. Hence my original comment about CPI + (X)% wherein (X) is the one (and only one) that rewards you for productivity improvements and 'give backs'.

CPI should be a given - It is known as Wage Growth, i.e a rise of wage adjusted for inflation - except if you like working for 'less' every year, then don't track CPI at your peril. But, if you do 2% More, is it fair to say that you expect 1% More (50/50 share between employee and employer), wherein that 1% is not part of CPI but over and above CPI - Raise your hand if you have not been doing (X)% more...

The current proposal (including BOOT) satisfies Wage Growth, but considering all the big numbers being thrown around, does not realistically satisfy CPI + 1% for someone who believes that they are giving significantly more each year.

Let's see how your numbers shape up when we include BOOT and compare that to someone that believes he/she deserves CPI + 1%

Your Proposal versus CPI* + 1%**
(*) June Year-on-Year Figures
(**) 1% increase in Spending Power

2019 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (2.6%) : $205 200.00
2020 + 0% : $200 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (0.7%) : $206 636.40 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2021 + 3% : $206 000.00___versus___CPI + 1% (4.8%) : $216 554.95 (Swallow some Stand Downs with That)
2022 + 9% : $224 540.00___versus___CPI + 1% (7.1%) : $231 930.35
2023 + 3% : $231 276.20
2024 + 3% : $238 214.49
2025 + 3% : $245 360.92

To make your proposal work and end up at $245 360.92 in 2025, while still ensuring your spending power improves by 1% each year, you are wagering your bets that CPI will be 0.894155% (or less) in 2023, 2024 and 2025.

On Cue, Daniel Ziffer explained it here tonight:

You Tube

Deleted because CBF

Now I have read the draft I can now make an informed decision.

Effectively this;

More work,less protections,
required work at home,
for less pay!

I hope to hell the pilot group see's through this crap.

FOI, are you saying QF is financially unsustainable if they had to pay salaries that don’t see their staff going backwards at soon-to-be double digits? We’re not talking about payrises here, not even close.

I think you make a potentially damaging claim if that is what you’re saying.

Out of interest, how much have ticket prices gone up? And how much has profit gone up during this challenging time?

honestly don't even bother. FOI must be a management troll having a laugh or something. If not, he/she has no idea.

Just been going through some old AFAP emails.

This was the result of the EBA survey back in 2018.

The survey indicated that a better work life balance is a big ticket item yet nothing in the proposed EBA addresses this.

Seriously, apart from pay increases (to try to keep up with inflation), this is all else we are getting (outside work):

1. 4 additional star days per pilot (but still the same amount of days off)
2. Access to fixed days off and or a fixed roster pattern for eligible Carer’s (2% pilots only)
3. Modified ACALS to improve access to leave
4. Improvements to annual leave availability:

Not much gained, and we even made some sacrifices in work/life balance, so the net gain is zero, otherwise worse off. (Improved access to AVAIL Days – up to 1700 the day prior (or at sign-off after their last duty, whichever is later) before it converts to a DFD. The restriction around converting an available day to Standby remains). This means even less days off now.

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see any improvement in work life balance.

Yet here is another quote from an AFAP email (Mar 2019)

Thanks for highlighting this to Jetstar and also reminding Jetstar pilots how worse off they are, yet nothing was done about it. Wouldn't more DDO's improve the work/life balance ?

Here is another quote from an AFAP email November 2019:

Isn't it time to for the Union to represent it's members and fight for that they wanted (a better work/life balance) using all available tools? (as we were advised last time and as they intended and commenced)

If this EBA gets through, it will be nothing but a pay increase to attempt to keep up with inflation, but otherwise the same old ****, work hard, get flogged, and tired all the time (work harder/earn less than others). Is this what you want?

Well said mate, this is absolutely pathetic agreement and leaves us open to be decimated by segregation. I hope to **** this does not go through.

Its a net zero gain.

Anybody thinking this is a " pay rise " has obviously forgotten that they haven't had a pay rise in 5 years.

Zero lifestyle improvements and only getting paid what your owed. Who is the AFAP actually working for?

Does anyone actually think this is the only deal on the table?

NO.

MCD

If you think that inflation is "only" 6ish%, maybe have a rethink at what your personal inflation is tracking at for the year.
News.com.au have a calculator that lets you plug in a few variables to see what real inflation rate you're personally looking at - as a fairly modest, healthy-ish living person, I'm looking at 11%. Throw in a few additional things like child care and smoking or going out often and this sky rockets.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/mone...bc66b721c17346
(scroll about halfway down the article for the calculator)

Maybe the union/negotiators should take a look at that inflation calculator link.

Apparently they have a calculator/spreadsheet to calculate back pay, but can't seem to calculate days off compared to other major Australian airlines as well calculate real inflation.

Everything you have said is more or less factually incorrect, and what difference would this be compared to 3% per year, lets work it out shall we?

let me break it down to a level you can understand. just FYI you will need both hands.

July 2019 3%
July 2020 3%
July 2021 3%
July 2022 3%
July 2023 3%
July 2024 3%
July 2025 3%

7 x 3% = 21%, that's similar to the total we are at now isn't it? what a surprise. Further to this, the only reason we are getting a move back to 3% is because we are forced under the award to be paid this, this is not good will, this is not another but the absolute minimum.

A few cents increase isn't worth the time away from home and your family.

Required as they are calculated under the total yearly base.

Proper carers line that doesn't meant he Qantas group minimum standard, because Jetstar doesn't want to copy and paste the written agreement standard that Qantas has already created? that doesn't meet the minimum NES standard? that gives 2% of pilots cares line? tell me again how this is proper?

Star days that never get approved? good call there.

Leave slots that don't meet the NES standard of a leave system? another good call.

Most employers that has a similar WDO and DIL built into theirs, but here we are, 50% WDO within 3 hours and don't worry if you have things planned on your day off, the company will own you until such time you are signed off in your home base.

NES required

Its clearly the other way round, you have embarrassed yourself consistently with poor judgement and poor interpretation, you have been consistently corrected and proven wrong, not just by me but a significant amount of people on this forum, you are clueless and your misinformation is a clear sign of your intent on these forums - So again, stop spreading misinformation, its helping no one.

[/QUOTE]

We have list close to 50 pilots in the last few months, all be it by multiple causes, but a lot have left for better places.

I doubt FOI is management. Management or those with an interest from management certainly lurk here and I would like FOI to reconfirm his/her damaging suggestion here in front of you good people.

Just one mathematical point: 7 x 3% annual increases is not the same as a 21% increase.

e.g. $100,000 increased by 3% is $103,000. $103,000 increased by 3% isn’t $106,000. It’s $106,180. Do that another 5 times and you don’t get to $121,000.

However, the overarching point that pay increased by CPI does not maintain the ‘buying power’ of pay is unassailable. Even the ABS acknowledges that (or should I call the ABS “The Other Bureau”…).

What a total load of ****, if the new deal suits you then vote for it! If it doesn’t then don’t vote for it…… Majority wins……. Simple. If after the result you don’t like the outcome then either volunteer to join the negotiating team or leave.

Having been a Union rep it is the most thankless task, everyone is pulling in different directions and when you deliver a deal it is amazing the amount of abuse you are subjected too after giving up a massive amount of personal time to try and represent the pilots. I often handed critics a ‘nomination’ form to join as a representative and they couldn’t back away quick enough.

The one thing we always tried to foster as a rep was unity which was always the one thing we never achieved. I mean look at this thread, you are all reading the same proposed deal and can’t even agree the basic numbers let alone if it is good or not. Unity is what the company truely fears and what they have spent years chipping away at. In the end you have to present an offer as I can guarantee you there would have been pressure on the reps to present something or ‘people were going to leave the union’. What members don’t understand is ‘they’ are the union… not the people on the negotiating team, the deal your negotiators can obtain is directly proportional to how effective the members are at being ‘unionised’. Again from this thread we can see the problem is contained within the members, can’t even agree amoungst themselves.

Ollie - no offence, but anyone who puts up their hand to represent pilots and expects anything OTHER than feedback is naive. You are effectively a politician, albeit unpaid.

Pilot unity is a myth. At best it can be briefly glimpsed at a pub.

The reality is that whilst JQ pilots fight on Pprune about voting up their EBA, QF pilots will be flying A321’s on significantly better terms and conditions, and the Qantas group are happy to pay for this……

Interesting concept is unity. When you refer to unity do you mean everyone standing behind the one banner or do you mean unions working together for the common good of the pilots? You are absolutely correct when you state that the company fears the unity of the pilots and their representatives. What this document represents is the company's successful attempt to drive a wedge within the pilot group and one of the pilot unions happily signing on in a thinly veiled attempt to be the only union in the spotlight. The hypocrisy in the draft is that AIPA is expected to sign it when it has not been a party to its construction and has been sidelined by the company and the AFAP in the negotiation of it. This is as much a political document as it is an industrial one. If it is voted down then it will demonstrate that the pilots see the future more clearly than the people who negotiated it. If its voted up then that won't be an indication that the pilots are happy with the negotiators but more an indication of frustration and reluctant acceptance that they are pawns in a ridiculous industrial chess game.

….and EFA pilots will be flying them on significantly worse conditions. All one happy family.

‘Feedback’ YES, abuse NO. Honestly you have no idea the vile comments that are directed at the reps from some people. By Unity I mean a united front and message from ALL pilots and Unions with the in fighting restricted to between themselves. During my
last contract negotiation we had members writing emails to Management detailing discussions had at Union base meetings as the ‘members’ didn’t agree with the Union direction….. Music to Managers ears. Management 101 is to split the employee group… we shouldn’t help them do it. I truely believe it is a hangover from 1989, I was a rep overseas as well and participated in many PIA’s for the greater good, trying to get the Aussies to do the same thing is like hearding cats and the T&C’s will forever suffer as a result.

Everyone gazes overseas and envies the contract gains in the US etc, guess what, the Unions played hardball and won big eith the backing of the members. The same could be achieved here if ypu could convince ALL Qantas Group employees to support each other with maybe a recruitment ban until Qantas comes to the party…. Will it EVER HAPPEN ….. sadly NO.

That is why I say, it is everyone for themselves, if it suits you vote for it and din’t worry about everyone else.

well said, Qantas is scared of the current proposed labor IR reforms that might allow group bargaining but there is zero evidence that the various pilot groups would know what to do with it

Back in 2019, the inflation rate was only 1.6% yet the union was taking PIA in an attempt to break through the Qantas 3% wage policy. There was no wage freeze either.

Now in 2022, with the 12 month inflation rate sitting at 7.3%, the negotiatiors are making no attempt to break the 3% wage policy or keep up with inflation, and even worse, they are trying tell everyone what a good deal this is.

This is also after most pilots were stood down without pay for a lengthy period of time. (Some perhaps over 18 month)

Sorry, not good enough and something does not seem right here.

The union seems to be going above and beyond in an attempt to 'sell' the deal. I thought that was the companies job. A good deal should sell itself? Doesn't sound like this one does... at all..

I almost spat out my corn flakes this morning as I read this quote in the Oz from QF Chairman Richard Goyder:

”We’re concerned that lowering the bar for compulsory arbitration and enforcing multi employer bargaining would lead to centralised wage setting” …..(with)”little regard for the fact that companies have different needs, that will have a massive impact on productivity, growth and….,the ability to pay more”

page 7 (The Nation, Australian Newspaper, November 5-6,2022)

Australian pilots, despite largely being members of the union, are inherently economic-conservatives and Liberal voters. The industrial naivety of wondering why the fair work act provides sweet FA to workers but continually voting for the Liberals is stunning. Compare this to ALPA-I in the US, their social media talks about solidarity across all workers, standing with cabin crew and baggage handlers, they talk about solidarity and unity. They run pickets at airport terminals! They openly talk about equality rather than being scared to discuss anything more than a 'network' for women. ALPA-I is a real union because their members understand that real unions get real results. A union is only as strong as their members and to be frank, Australian pilots are individualistic and anti-union. While we squabble and snitch to management we will never increase wages in this country.

This should be at stickied at the top of the forum.