Lookleft , surely all pilots benefit from a higher ODTA from being away from base (with thanks to the optimiser) and is Perth flying being rostered exclusively to former western lads? Looking from the outside.
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Can anyone who is currently Melbourne based give an indication of lifestyle and rostering? I know it's far from a lifestyle base but how busy is it at the moment for the crews currently
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Originally Posted by ShandywithSugar
(Post 11317012)
Lookleft , surely all pilots benefit from a higher ODTA from being away from base (with thanks to the optimiser) and is Perth flying being rostered exclusively to former western lads? Looking from the outside.
The ex-Perth pilot thing is a dead cat being thrown on the table by the telegram mob to try and discredit the proposal by attacking the integrity of the negotiating team. Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers, many other pilots will probably bid to avoid them, guess where Jbid will allocate PER overnights as a result. But for the hard of thinking this is used as a weapon to encourage division. |
The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA. The thing about overnights is that a lot of pilots don't want them, after all Jetstar was supposed to be all about not having to overnight. So why would you build up the allowance for overnights? Why wouldn't you actually try and negotiate an increase in an allowance that all pilots receive instead of getting rid of it all together? Other than the 3% (which they also didn't negotiate) all the rest of it is made up of assumptions about what pilots may or may not do. The one allowance that is guaranteed they got rid of. A good weathervane of intent is the F/O's attitude to the IPA. No one I have flown with recently has stated an intention to vote for it. It seems strange to me that the one Union that led the charge on PIA before there was an agreement is now leading the charge on accepting an agreement with all the talk of "grounded planes at Christmas" vanishing into thin air like pixie dust.
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11317068)
The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA. The thing about overnights is that a lot of pilots don't want them, after all Jetstar was supposed to be all about not having to overnight. So why would you build up the allowance for overnights? Why wouldn't you actually try and negotiate an increase in an allowance that all pilots receive instead of getting rid of it all together? Other than the 3% (which they also didn't negotiate) all the rest of it is made up of assumptions about what pilots may or may not do. The one allowance that is guaranteed they got rid of. A good weathervane of intent is the F/O's attitude to the IPA. No one I have flown with recently has stated an intention to vote for it. It seems strange to me that the one Union that led the charge on PIA before there was an agreement is now leading the charge on accepting an agreement with all the talk of "grounded planes at Christmas" vanishing into thin air like pixie dust.
And doesn’t DTA increase as well - an allowance that all pilots get? And what about the initial increases to base salary to comply with the Award? It was only the most junior FO level that wasn’t compliant with salary in the award. I’m fairly confident QF IR wouldn’t have been keen to just hand over that equivalent increase to all other pilots - so it’s fair to assume that increase is probably down to some tough negotiating. But that probably doesn’t fit the narrative of personally attacking those involved does it? |
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11316558)
The Perth base was closed during the Covid opportunity and government cash grab. Those who were left to commute are a big part of the AFAP negotiating team. So no surprises that they are making a big deal out of the additional highline payments for ODTA. As there is so much Perth flying to be covered they get a higher payment for being at home. In return they have agreed to give away a guaranteed payment for all pilots that covered required courseware on the Ipad. Hence my paraphrase.
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11316558)
The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA. The thing about overnights is that a lot of pilots don't want them, after all Jetstar was supposed to be all about not having to overnight. So why would you build up the allowance for overnights? Why wouldn't you actually try and negotiate an increase in an allowance that all pilots receive instead of getting rid of it all together? Other than the 3% (which they also didn't negotiate) all the rest of it is made up of assumptions about what pilots may or may not do. The one allowance that is guaranteed they got rid of. A good weathervane of intent is the F/O's attitude to the IPA. No one I have flown with recently has stated an intention to vote for it. It seems strange to me that the one Union that led the charge on PIA before there was an agreement is now leading the charge on accepting an agreement with all the talk of "grounded planes at Christmas" vanishing into thin air like pixie dust.
If you idiots can’t do basic math or understand how the award works, you should leave it to the people who can. Straight up, AIPA would negotiate a position that is 3% worse. Increases in layover payments including highline and ODTA are a very smart thing as the fleet plan for Jetstar includes 18LR’s and 20 XLR’s. Only a moron would think there are not going to be additional overnights with that fleet. |
Originally Posted by StudentInDebt
(Post 11317065)
Yes they will do, assuming the optimiser doesn’t decide that touring duties are expensive as a result of ODTA and the layover highline scheme (get paid for your hours away from base in addition to accruing allowances).
The ex-Perth pilot thing is a dead cat being thrown on the table by the telegram mob to try and discredit the proposal by attacking the integrity of the negotiating team. Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers, many other pilots will probably bid to avoid them, guess where Jbid will allocate PER overnights as a result. But for the hard of thinking this is used as a weapon to encourage division. |
Increases in layover payments including highline and ODTA are a very smart thing as the fleet plan for Jetstar includes 18LR’s and 20 XLR’s. Only a moron would think there are not going to be additional overnights with that fleet. |
Jesus Christ, this AFAP v AIPA rubbish is getting very Old. Just sort out a deal that actually values the pilot group FFS. :ugh: No one that has joined in the last 10 years gives a toss what union does what. If you can't get over it just retire already and leave the negotiations to the crews that are going to live with it for the next thirty years.
They just want to be respected and remunerated in line with what they provide to the group. They're sick of being treated like trash because they work for JQ. That 30 year career at JQ is fast becoming untenable. If this deal gets up it's time to start planning an exit me thinks. |
Originally Posted by SHVC
(Post 11317129)
Do the ex PH pilots have JBid? I sure don’t.
nb I think jbid Is now open to WB JQ pilots as well so you should really catch up but there aren’t any 788 flights ex-PER so don’t waste a bid. |
Originally Posted by Keith Myath
(Post 11317115)
Increases in layover payments including highline and ODTA are a very smart thing as the fleet plan for Jetstar includes 18LR’s and 20 XLR’s. Only a moron would think there are not going to be additional overnights with that fleet.
Order book was originally 320N. Has been changed a million times since, Airbus won’t budge on any contract changes unless you spend more cash with them, then you get to play with dates and payment schedules. |
Two unions infighting amongst themselves as usual.
Once again, ZERO result for the members ( Jetstar pilots ). Realistically, what has either union achived for the pilot group in the last 10 years? Nothing. Management are laughing at us all. As usual. This situation is simply untenable. MCD |
MCD - you are simply lying. Not sure what your agenda is other than just blind hate for your employer which you seem to have turned into a sport due lack of any other interests.
You haven’t even been to a roadshow yet in order to come to any serious conclusions or ask any questions. From what I’ve seen, this is was a good deal, turned into an excellent deal with last weeks 3% announcement. A multitude of lifestyle improvements (something that most on here can’t seem to define what they actually mean by the the term) and an immediate 12% pay rise with 18% over the life of the agreement. That’s before you consider the incremental increases in EFA / WDO / DTA / ODTA etc, 50% highline paid from sign-on to sign-off on multi day trips…. PLUS PLUS. If you carry on like a petulant child with claims this is the worst deal you’ve ever seen, then you must be: 1. Ignorant, 2. Grinding a personal axe, 3. Incapable of ever being satisfied, 4. High, or 5. All of the above. If we vote this down we look really stupid. Look around you, if you can’t see how good a deal this is given the state of the world, then you’re walking around blind with no cane. |
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11317290)
You lost a lot of people during that ridiculous PIA that cost the pilots 3% from 2020 and you now just assume that because the AFAP has decreed the pilots will follow. Put it to the vote then and see what your constituents think. After all you should be doing this for the benefit of all the pilots and not just the WA cabal.
And yet now given the extremely uncertain global economic outlook, you’re pontificating about voting down an agreement worth 18%? The WA Cabal - a continuation of the personal attacks says more about your character than those who give up extraordinary amounts of their own time and who have negotiated what looks to be so far a pretty good deal. And come the roadshows - I’d expect a majority of JQ pilots will agree. |
Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
(Post 11317595)
Yeah except for the minor point that PIA was followed a matter of weeks by a pandemic that lasted the better part of 18 months - which is what ‘cost’ the 3%.
And yet now given the extremely uncertain global economic outlook, you’re pontificating about voting down an agreement worth 18%? The WA Cabal - a continuation of the personal attacks says more about your character than those who give up extraordinary amounts of their own time and who have negotiated what looks to be so far a pretty good deal. And come the roadshows - I’d expect a majority of JQ pilots will agree. |
Originally Posted by StudentInDebt
(Post 11317405)
Are you a Jetstar NB pilot? If you’re not then PER overnights are irrelevant to you, if you are then you’ve missed a lot of emails about how your working practices have changed.
nb I think jbid Is now open to WB JQ pilots as well so you should really catch up but there aren’t any 788 flights ex-PER so don’t waste a bid. “Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers” I was making mention if they bid and get them they must have Jbid, Because Jbid is not working for me and many others I know. |
FOI thanks for the post.
Thats one of the funniest this year. Best of luck with that. MCD |
Originally Posted by FOI
(Post 11317587)
MCD - you are simply lying. Not sure what your agenda is other than just blind hate for your employer which you seem to have turned into a sport due lack of any other interests.
You haven’t even been to a roadshow yet in order to come to any serious conclusions or ask any questions. From what I’ve seen, this is was a good deal, turned into an excellent deal with last weeks 3% announcement. A multitude of lifestyle improvements (something that most on here can’t seem to define what they actually mean by the the term) and an immediate 12% pay rise with 18% over the life of the agreement. That’s before you consider the incremental increases in EFA / WDO / DTA / ODTA etc, 50% highline paid from sign-on to sign-off on multi day trips…. PLUS PLUS. If you carry on like a petulant child with claims this is the worst deal you’ve ever seen, then you must be: 1. Ignorant, 2. Grinding a personal axe, 3. Incapable of ever being satisfied, 4. High, or 5. All of the above. If we vote this down we look really stupid. Look around you, if you can’t see how good a deal this is given the state of the world, then you’re walking around blind with no cane. |
Originally Posted by SHVC
(Post 11317624)
Not sure what you’re on about I was making reference to another comment
“Ex-PER pilots whose families still reside in WA will naturally bid for tours involving PER layovers” I was making mention if they bid and get them they must have Jbid, Because Jbid is not working for me and many others I know. JBID was sold to the pilot group as a magical carpet ride into a life of customised rosters and endless opportunities. The end result, in my opinion, has been diabolical, and no one seems to be talking about it…. My “lifestyle” is at an all time LOW My roster is the most fatiguing it’s EVER been considering the rostered number of hours. Getting a few requested days off in a month….. don’t even get me started…. the whole things is a sham. And they wonder why sick leave is at an all time high. Add JBID to the list of lies we’ve been subject too for the last decade. |
Originally Posted by SHVC
(Post 11317628)
All those extras you mention come at a penalty, highline they want flexibility so we have to check our rosters for a duty until a time that the company specified. May as well get rid of highline make it an extra reserve, whilst we are on reserves there will be 4 below 75hrs now and that extra half WDO for finishing after 23:00 before a day off does not benefit SY or ADL base with curfew so you will be signed off before 23:00. WDO increase who cares i would be happy if we removed that clause all together might actually stimulate some decent crew numbers. I could go on but I will not be convinced it’s a good deal because they offer what we really should be on with normal CPI increases over last 4yrs while giving more lifestyle conditions.
As for the CPI argument, well we were the masters of our own demise 3 years ago in our actions. We put ourselves behind, sorry, that’s the reality. And the “what we should be on anyway “ argument, sorry but again that’s ridiculous. All the company has to do is satisfy the BOOT, they’re under no legal obligations here to do anything but that. This well exceeds the BOOT as far as I can tell. Whilst everything traded in this EA comes at a cost, or “penalty” as you see it, I can see we’ve given very little away for immense benefit to us overall. Vote this down at our own peril. If you think our predicament was bad from knocking back the 3%’s, 3 years ago and entering PIA, then try this on for size and learn the hardest lesson we’ll ever learn. |
Originally Posted by ManillaChillaDilla
(Post 11317627)
FOI thanks for the post.
Thats one of the funniest this year. Best of luck with that. MCD |
As for now being remunerated for a misconnection into a day off, 4 hours at EFA rate between 2300-0100 and a WDO beyond that, is a far cry from the DIL I currently get that I can never use, which = zero. Do you really think that checking for a next day’s duty by 1700 the day before is both a material “penalty” and akin to an extra standby? Yeah except for the minor point that PIA was followed a matter of weeks by a pandemic that lasted the better part of 18 months - which is what ‘cost’ the 3%. The AFAP and JQ management severely underestimate the level of resentment and animosity that the pilots have towards them. If this is such a good deal then of course it will be voted up but that is not how it is perceived out in the real world of operations. From what I hear on the flightdeck F/O's are tired of being talked at by their AFAP reps. You need to listen to those you purport to represent. |
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11317662)
Once again the negotiators should be listening to their constituency. How about negotiating that no one is rostered a duty after 20:00 before an RDO? Pilots would preference lifestyle over payments for poor rostering practices.
Thats the way most pilots see it. What was wrong with the current system where if you checked your roster at the end of the duty and nothing was allocated then you effectively got another day off. The AVD was negotiated during the current EBA (the 2015 one) so why is it already being changed from a system that pilots were happy with? Its not just about the money. Don't forget what pilots have had to put up with for the 2 years of COVID. I love the spin. If the PIA didn't happen then the agreement would have been signed before March 2020 and the 3% would have been locked in. QF Shorthaul got their 3%. Different issues but the evidence suggests that PIA was the difference. That and a willingness by their negotiators to get the job done and not beat their chests like the gorillas in Rwanda. The AFAP and JQ management severely underestimate the level of resentment and animosity that the pilots have towards them. If this is such a good deal then of course it will be voted up but that is not how it is perceived out in the real world of operations. From what I hear on the flightdeck F/O's are tired of being talked at by their AFAP reps. You need to listen to those you purport to represent. To suggest the PIA would have locked in a March 2020 EA is both highly speculative and I would suggest far from the truth. I think COVID actually saved us from what may have transpired after that little experiment. |
The AFAP and JQ management severely underestimate the level of resentment and animosity that the pilots have towards them. These sort of statements seem to be more management minded to seed division in the pilot body rather than be united behind the union. |
FOI,
It would seem there have been several raw nerves exposed for you. Abusing people because they express an opinion really does smack of desperation. Remember, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just because you yell louder doesnt mean you are correct. Perhaps wait for the road shows before you try to bludgeon your membership base with your diatribe regarding what we are worth. Your hard sell on this forum hasn't achieved much other than to highlight your identity. Last time I looked you werent the moderator here. Lookleft really did nail it. MCD |
Originally Posted by 43Inches
(Post 11317666)
Why are the AFAP reps not JQ pilots? Or are they just pilots with a differing POV to the majority? I don't get this statement that the AFAP is somehow responsible for what is a group negotiation that the majority of pilots should be involved with. Or is it a case that some pilots don't understand that they need to communicate their needs with the union to get results they want. The union should just be providing resources for the pilots to sort out their own EBA via their own pilot reps. All the EBAs I have been involved with the union is advised by the in house reps and assist negotiations as the workers fight for what they want. There will be always fringe dwellers that want something fantastical that won't happen but the majority will be happy, which is the purpose.
These sort of statements seem to be more management minded to seed division in the pilot body rather than be united behind the union. I feel for the bargaining reps, like all things some of what you get over the line won’t appease everyone. Amongst us pilots it just seems some minorities can’t grapple with that concept and succumb to Chicken Little sky is falling tactics. |
I think COVID actually saved us from what may have transpired after that little experiment. I think you mean the level of resentment that you and a couple of your mates have against them. Be careful how you generalise. |
Originally Posted by ManillaChillaDilla
(Post 11317671)
FOI,
It would seem there have been several raw nerves exposed for you. Abusing people because they express an opinion really does smack of desperation. Remember, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just because you yell louder doesnt mean you are correct. Perhaps wait for the road shows before you try to bludgeon your membership base with your diatribe regarding what we are worth. Your hard sell on this forum hasn't achieved much other than to highlight your identity. Last time I looked you werent the moderator here. Lookleft really did nail it. MCD Just because I can see the risk at play here with your reckless attempts to derail what has obviously been a long hard road to get here, doesn’t mean I have any personal investment as you allude to. I don’t know you, nor you me, probably best it stays that way. I have reached my tolerance threshold regarding a noisy keyboard warrior minority advocating unjustified hatred and negativity when not armed with facts or reason. Hence I feel compelled to express my views to your contrary. That’s not abusing people, it is publicly calling you out for your attempts to derail this, which was largely going uncontested. |
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11317673)
And that is the sort of logic that underpins this so called in principle agreement where the lack of a payrise is considered a good outcome. Unbelievable.
Most of the F/O's I fly with are either AFAP or ex-AFAP. In fact some of them prior to this document were some of the most supportive union pilots I have flown with. To paraphrase another historical figure "Its the lifestyle stoopid." Members will come and go and opinions will fly everywhere, ops normal. I just want balance in assessment as it is so often the negative sentiment holders that are the noisiest in the room. |
Lectures aside, lets get the vote on then.
That will be the real determiner of membership sentiment. FOI I sincerely hope you are not involved in a union sence for all our sakes. By the tone of your post though Im assuming you are. Sadly you provide a graphic insight as to the AFAPs contempt for their PAYING MEMBERS. MCD |
I swear some people at JQ have Stockholm syndrome. Only ever flown at REX and JQ with no idea what a real airline is like.
No one gives a **** anymore about the AFAP v AIPA bull****. Work together, figure it out and get a better deal for the group. If you can't do that go away and let the young ones at it. They don't care about your stupid grudges. Everyone has always hated on management, but now that some are asking difficult questions of their union reps the AFAP are getting their knockers in a knot. |
Opportunity was lost and a tactical dice was rolled; It’s just business, and it appears to me the company has come along way in meeting us much closer to where we’d like to be through robust negotiation. |
Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11317068)
The integrity of the negotiating team was discredited when they threw the dead cat on the table that is the IPA.
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Meanwhile in a country where the pilot union actually have some cohones, pilots are negotiating 20% payrises.
....But yes lets just be happy with a rise nearly 3% below inflation, and continue to have division between the workforce. What great collective bargaining that is going to achieve... Unbelievable, it really is just a race to the bottom in this country. |
Originally Posted by Gunner747400
(Post 11317706)
Meanwhile in a country where the pilot union actually have some cohones, pilots are negotiating 20% payrises.
....But yes lets just be happy with a rise nearly 3% below inflation, and continue to have division between the workforce. What great collective bargaining that is going to achieve... Unbelievable, it really is just a race to the bottom in this country. |
I still don't get it, if it's that bad it will get voted down. What does AFAP, AIPA or anyone else have to do with it, when the pilot body will either want it or not. The pilots will vote for it based on what each individual thinks and you move on, if it gets voted down, everyone needs to get together and work out what you want and work in unison towards it, otherwise you might end up with worse. If it gets voted up, then its done and dusted until next time, move on, the majority chose it. What other companies get, especially overseas is irrelevant, you fight for what you need here and now. In some cases the company will just stonewall and not progress, even with PIA, all depends on how much you want to fight for something. Any signs of disunity and the company will drive a wedge in to get traction.
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There are those that are relying on facts and looking at things in the whole context (which I believe is the majority to be honest).
Then there are those that are seemingly determined to be miserable, angry and myopic no matter what’s put in front of them. Shut off from reality, even after an experience like COVID, too miserable to stay, yet too lazy/scared to go. Want to live in the best country on Earth and earn more income than the majority of the population under an EBA that protects you in so many ways compared to other shift workers? Then get off Prune, ask some questions, do some maths (as I did) then form an educated opinion based on facts and reasonableness. If it’s in the negative, then that’s fine, but leave the reps alone, most out there ultimately have no idea what they do and at what personal expense comes at doing it. |
but leave the reps alone, most out there ultimately have no idea what they do and at what personal expense comes at doing it. Want to live in the best country on Earth and earn more income than the majority of the population under an EBA that protects you in so many ways compared to other shift workers? They are still going on about 89 or AFAP v AiPA or some other stupid thing. I wasn’t aware of the Institute of Public Affairs having a say in the matter. I have more than said my piece so I will leave it to others to discuss. As always the decision as to whether its going to get up will be left to those who actually work for Jetstar and not the rubber neckers who have put in their typically useless contributions. |
Wow. Hasn’t this afternoon shown how they have misread the room and lost control of the narrative with that response. What an embarrassment this is.
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Originally Posted by Flava Saver
(Post 11317753)
Wow. Hasn’t this afternoon shown how they have misread the room and lost control of the narrative with that response. What an embarrassment this is.
I honestly believe that we need to start again.. @FOI it's not a good deal, it's not an excellent deal now it's 3%, it's an unknown deal, wait till you have the document before you make your mind up. |
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