Meeting Virgin Blue Minimums
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Next door
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shot duck!!
.........and the latest is.
40 pilots selected last week to be interviewed over the next few months. If your not in this round, you better get another job while you wait.
40 pilots selected last week to be interviewed over the next few months. If your not in this round, you better get another job while you wait.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must admit I always smile when I hear the Virgin ads on the radio and they talk about keeping "the air fair".... in view of the fact that they appear to have discriminatory employment practices.
Sure, there's always going to be someone who gets a job somewhere because they happen to know the right people. But from the comments circulating about Virgin one would assume that's the only way you can get a job at Virgin.
Am I right? Is there anyone out there who has been employed by Virgin who doesn't have the obligatory three mates on the inside batting for them?
I sympathise for those of you who meet VB's minima (the plural of minimum) yet can't even get an interview. And I sympathise for those who have friends at Virgin but don't want to exploit that friendship or be a pain in the $%&* by hastling them to put in a good word for them.
Evidently the Australian tradition of 'mateship' over-rides the equally valuable Australian quality of giving everyone a fair go.
By the way, does Virgin employ any female pilots?
Sure, there's always going to be someone who gets a job somewhere because they happen to know the right people. But from the comments circulating about Virgin one would assume that's the only way you can get a job at Virgin.
Am I right? Is there anyone out there who has been employed by Virgin who doesn't have the obligatory three mates on the inside batting for them?
I sympathise for those of you who meet VB's minima (the plural of minimum) yet can't even get an interview. And I sympathise for those who have friends at Virgin but don't want to exploit that friendship or be a pain in the $%&* by hastling them to put in a good word for them.
Evidently the Australian tradition of 'mateship' over-rides the equally valuable Australian quality of giving everyone a fair go.
By the way, does Virgin employ any female pilots?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't it funny that you cry fould, that the system is working against you..
As you are probably aware a number of DJ's crew paid for their flying tuition, sat their ATPL subjects like good girls and boys and took off into G.A with no idea if they were going to be taken on to maybe fly , Hmmm lets see, a cessna 210 if they were lucky. They prodded thru this early existence, getting pissed on friday nights at some pocal pub where all the cool senior pilots hung out ( like the ones who flew cessna twins or maybe even a turbo prop) to find that eventually one day they too would find themselves in the left seat of a twin. Do you see a pattern here my friend......
Then a little company announces its intention to recruit and base pilots in Brisvegas and to everyones shock they will have 737;s and yes even more shocking, they will be recruiting from the bottom of the barrell also.
So all the hard years doing what everyone else did has paid off for all these people and they now find themselves flying either with DJ, QF, CX etc etc etc.
Funny that while you chose the path of big shiny aircraft that made ****loads of noise when they departed the airport you now fail to find yourself inside one................
Pardon the irony here friend but maybe you should have just done what every other pilot has done and stayed at home and got some local hours instead of running off to get all that experience you obviously didn't need in the end.....
Man i love my job
As you are probably aware a number of DJ's crew paid for their flying tuition, sat their ATPL subjects like good girls and boys and took off into G.A with no idea if they were going to be taken on to maybe fly , Hmmm lets see, a cessna 210 if they were lucky. They prodded thru this early existence, getting pissed on friday nights at some pocal pub where all the cool senior pilots hung out ( like the ones who flew cessna twins or maybe even a turbo prop) to find that eventually one day they too would find themselves in the left seat of a twin. Do you see a pattern here my friend......
Then a little company announces its intention to recruit and base pilots in Brisvegas and to everyones shock they will have 737;s and yes even more shocking, they will be recruiting from the bottom of the barrell also.
So all the hard years doing what everyone else did has paid off for all these people and they now find themselves flying either with DJ, QF, CX etc etc etc.
Funny that while you chose the path of big shiny aircraft that made ****loads of noise when they departed the airport you now fail to find yourself inside one................
Pardon the irony here friend but maybe you should have just done what every other pilot has done and stayed at home and got some local hours instead of running off to get all that experience you obviously didn't need in the end.....
Man i love my job
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: ozland
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rapid expansion can be a real aviation risk factor, not particularly for DJ, but for any airline, as resources can get spread a bit thin. An airline undergoing such expansion must be very particular about training, constant review and development of procedures, and LISTENING TO CREWS CONCERNS at an early stage, as a good indicator of impending risks and hazards.
Is DJ doing this? Dunno, don't happen to work for them, so over to you....
Ditto for the comments about experience. On the face of it, the more experienced the better, but if an airline is not doing the above, even experience may not be able to trap the problems that sneak down the chain, or thru the (Reason) filters, whatever model you prefer.
I think I'd rather be flown around by guys with modest experience in a mature, supportive Flight Operations system that looks critically at itself all the time, than by experienced pilots struggling to get the job done because the management (sharp and blunt) think "you've got the endorsement, now go fly the aeroplane." Of course, to do the first usually means you have to do (and spend) a bit more than the minimum.
So, again, where does DJ fit? (Serious question)
Is DJ doing this? Dunno, don't happen to work for them, so over to you....
Ditto for the comments about experience. On the face of it, the more experienced the better, but if an airline is not doing the above, even experience may not be able to trap the problems that sneak down the chain, or thru the (Reason) filters, whatever model you prefer.
I think I'd rather be flown around by guys with modest experience in a mature, supportive Flight Operations system that looks critically at itself all the time, than by experienced pilots struggling to get the job done because the management (sharp and blunt) think "you've got the endorsement, now go fly the aeroplane." Of course, to do the first usually means you have to do (and spend) a bit more than the minimum.
So, again, where does DJ fit? (Serious question)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Land of OZ
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh Zone boy, picking on the pseudonym and the so called location proves you have come down in the last rain shower, you are living in a dream world if you have nothing better to say than that..........
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: ozland
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was hoping to elicit some serious comment from someone working at DJ about how they feel the company has handled some pretty phenominal expansion, so your two posts sure aren't contributing much.... 
It's a sad fact that on this forum sometimes the art of subtly is lost, so I'll spell it out:
Throughout this thread there has a been a lot of comment about how DJ "should" hire the guys with the most experience. Is that the only criteria that should be considered? I've flown (military, avmed and airlines) with some 15,000 hour guys who really only had 15 x 1000 hours, and some "young turks" with just a fraction of that who were as sharp as razors. To quote Kelly McGillis "it takes a lot more than just fancy flying." So what "should" DJ do? I think it's a bit rich to say they are making a mistake if they don't prioritise the criteria that such and such wants them to. I've flown with a few of the young guys they've hired (and promoted) and while their logbooks aren't fat, they're good . Providing they can focus on their job without distraction, and get the kind of assistance that any person new to an aircraft or flight deck position needs, no worries.
So that was my point. Unless someones experience is woefully inadequate, I'm more interested in how easy or difficult the system makes their job. Are they tired because of rostering, and always being asked to do more? Do some of the procedures need to be refined from the first issue? Does anyone listen when you've got a problem, or have an idea to make things work better? I've worked for a few airlines over the years, both seats, training, checking etc, none were ideal, even the one airline could vary a lot over a period of time. Generally the better ones did a bit of naval gazing, actually made changes along the way, and didn't talk about how great they were all the time. But even the well intentioned managers (flying and other) usually found it difficult to do the things they knew they should be doing when the needs of expansion took precedence. And that makes it tough for pilots of any experience to do their best job.
So once again, I'm genuinely curious. From guys who ACTUALLY WORK THERE is everything keeping up with the expansion? Is the job getting tougher? Howz it all going?
Not interested in controversy, just a friendly inquiry.
Oh, and you two have a nice day, y' hear?
It's a sad fact that on this forum sometimes the art of subtly is lost, so I'll spell it out:
Throughout this thread there has a been a lot of comment about how DJ "should" hire the guys with the most experience. Is that the only criteria that should be considered? I've flown (military, avmed and airlines) with some 15,000 hour guys who really only had 15 x 1000 hours, and some "young turks" with just a fraction of that who were as sharp as razors. To quote Kelly McGillis "it takes a lot more than just fancy flying." So what "should" DJ do? I think it's a bit rich to say they are making a mistake if they don't prioritise the criteria that such and such wants them to. I've flown with a few of the young guys they've hired (and promoted) and while their logbooks aren't fat, they're good . Providing they can focus on their job without distraction, and get the kind of assistance that any person new to an aircraft or flight deck position needs, no worries.
So that was my point. Unless someones experience is woefully inadequate, I'm more interested in how easy or difficult the system makes their job. Are they tired because of rostering, and always being asked to do more? Do some of the procedures need to be refined from the first issue? Does anyone listen when you've got a problem, or have an idea to make things work better? I've worked for a few airlines over the years, both seats, training, checking etc, none were ideal, even the one airline could vary a lot over a period of time. Generally the better ones did a bit of naval gazing, actually made changes along the way, and didn't talk about how great they were all the time. But even the well intentioned managers (flying and other) usually found it difficult to do the things they knew they should be doing when the needs of expansion took precedence. And that makes it tough for pilots of any experience to do their best job.
So once again, I'm genuinely curious. From guys who ACTUALLY WORK THERE is everything keeping up with the expansion? Is the job getting tougher? Howz it all going?
Not interested in controversy, just a friendly inquiry.
Oh, and you two have a nice day, y' hear?
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fascinating thread this.
'Twas ever thus for as long as men have gone down to the sea in ships.
Companies coming and going, old ones going down, upstarts upstarting, the landside bars full of beached old old timers dreaming of old times and doling out wisdom to young new timers champing at the bit for the chance to make it their own.
It'll hog they say, tapping their pipe and sucking another draught, second guessing every arrival and departure, it's human nature to so do, there's never a landing that couldn't have improved on been, right.
"Not bad, but if it had been me, well I'd have ................ blah blah blah."
VB will get along very well thank you without the Greek Chorus as much as the Chorus would like to think otherwise.
The main and really really hard lesson I have learn't in life is that I don't own "the way".
'Twas ever thus for as long as men have gone down to the sea in ships.
Companies coming and going, old ones going down, upstarts upstarting, the landside bars full of beached old old timers dreaming of old times and doling out wisdom to young new timers champing at the bit for the chance to make it their own.
It'll hog they say, tapping their pipe and sucking another draught, second guessing every arrival and departure, it's human nature to so do, there's never a landing that couldn't have improved on been, right.
"Not bad, but if it had been me, well I'd have ................ blah blah blah."
VB will get along very well thank you without the Greek Chorus as much as the Chorus would like to think otherwise.
The main and really really hard lesson I have learn't in life is that I don't own "the way".
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: brisbane
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hey Zone I will have a go at your Q
Yes VB are expanding but essentially the same information is used to operate. By that I mean that Vb have 3-4-7-800 some with winglets and different eng configs. at the end of the day the data is all presented in the same way and operationally there are very few differences. The are only two classics and a fair percentage of pilots are not required to fly them. those of us that do all flew the classic for a while before the NG so its no a big problem. as for the other facets of the operation flying into different ports is the same as any flying, You research before you go there and look at the gotcha's. I dont think any VB pilot would say that the ops manual and other paperwork is really well done and it is being refined all the time, eventually it will sort it self out (fingers crossed). As to other expansion problems well that happens in any company and you just get used to it, it sort of makes life interesting having tail changes and diversions from the planned roster. as to all the over worked comments- yes the captains work hard but the Fo's dont seem to do more than 60-70 hours a month, in fact i average 16 days off a month not including hollidays. As far a the EBA goes yes its a pain not being paid as much as we would like but i guess we are all hopefull that it will sort itself out by next year.
So here are the positives.
1. we work under CAO 48
2. we get to fly brand new aeroplanes
3. we get to fly with great guys and girls
4. you get to live in SE QLD
5. the FA's are good fun
6. you dont have to put up with the GA or regional airline problems
7. we overnight in Per,Syd,Mel,Hob,Lst,Dwn,CG,Tsv,Cns, Adl soon to be Cbr ????
and some negatives
1. We dont earn as much as our counterparts
2. we work for a company that is very different in its management style
3. we have to pay for our own endorsement
4. that paperwork can be a pain
5. the ansett sim sucks
6. we do a couple of bad duty flights
- bn-dn-bn red eye
- ph-ml-bn-sy red eye
- ph-sy-bn-sy
- ph-ml-lt-ml
I guess at the end of the day those who hate the company will always bag it as will those who dont know it, but what is the other choice (other than QF,NJ,Impulse,Alliance), a Saab or Dash 8, there is nothing wrong with the turb-props but you earn even less and get to fly in icing and turblulence more of the time. i guess its you choice.
Yes VB are expanding but essentially the same information is used to operate. By that I mean that Vb have 3-4-7-800 some with winglets and different eng configs. at the end of the day the data is all presented in the same way and operationally there are very few differences. The are only two classics and a fair percentage of pilots are not required to fly them. those of us that do all flew the classic for a while before the NG so its no a big problem. as for the other facets of the operation flying into different ports is the same as any flying, You research before you go there and look at the gotcha's. I dont think any VB pilot would say that the ops manual and other paperwork is really well done and it is being refined all the time, eventually it will sort it self out (fingers crossed). As to other expansion problems well that happens in any company and you just get used to it, it sort of makes life interesting having tail changes and diversions from the planned roster. as to all the over worked comments- yes the captains work hard but the Fo's dont seem to do more than 60-70 hours a month, in fact i average 16 days off a month not including hollidays. As far a the EBA goes yes its a pain not being paid as much as we would like but i guess we are all hopefull that it will sort itself out by next year.
So here are the positives.
1. we work under CAO 48
2. we get to fly brand new aeroplanes
3. we get to fly with great guys and girls
4. you get to live in SE QLD
5. the FA's are good fun
6. you dont have to put up with the GA or regional airline problems
7. we overnight in Per,Syd,Mel,Hob,Lst,Dwn,CG,Tsv,Cns, Adl soon to be Cbr ????
and some negatives
1. We dont earn as much as our counterparts
2. we work for a company that is very different in its management style
3. we have to pay for our own endorsement
4. that paperwork can be a pain
5. the ansett sim sucks
6. we do a couple of bad duty flights
- bn-dn-bn red eye
- ph-ml-bn-sy red eye
- ph-sy-bn-sy
- ph-ml-lt-ml
I guess at the end of the day those who hate the company will always bag it as will those who dont know it, but what is the other choice (other than QF,NJ,Impulse,Alliance), a Saab or Dash 8, there is nothing wrong with the turb-props but you earn even less and get to fly in icing and turblulence more of the time. i guess its you choice.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: I wish the MOON
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is Crazy ****
As far as i know there is less than 6 Non-scab AN captains left in Melbourne who would dearly love to work for VB and have not had any O/seas job offers the alternative is sit at home or get a 9-5 job, why would anybody wish this on a fellow aviator who through no fault of their own is now unemployed.
The mentality is similar in Dragon where Captains off A320 are not welcome but saab dash 8 and CRJ is OK.
Im certainly not saying the AN guys are any better but if you were expanding rapidly or flew the same aircraft type these guys had flown isnt there something wrong with this picture .
Why should these guys be pushed out of Aviation, even sadder if you think you can go to Easterns or National jet they are then over-Qualified.
Most of these Captains believe the worst thing they ever did was get a command because its certainly a lot harder to find work than for a First Officer, is this how aviation is supposed to be. The recruiters at VB certainly have lost these guys in the pile somewhere but not all AN Captains were involved in 89.
The mentality is similar in Dragon where Captains off A320 are not welcome but saab dash 8 and CRJ is OK.
Im certainly not saying the AN guys are any better but if you were expanding rapidly or flew the same aircraft type these guys had flown isnt there something wrong with this picture .
Why should these guys be pushed out of Aviation, even sadder if you think you can go to Easterns or National jet they are then over-Qualified.
Most of these Captains believe the worst thing they ever did was get a command because its certainly a lot harder to find work than for a First Officer, is this how aviation is supposed to be. The recruiters at VB certainly have lost these guys in the pile somewhere but not all AN Captains were involved in 89.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: ozland
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, cannon man for your concise and informative reply...
I would surmise from your statements that despite what the gainsayers claim, they are probably on par with any other airline of that age - some good points, some bad, maybe different good and bad points to other airlines, but a balanced collection of both all the same.
As the French say,
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
I dearly wish that all of the ex-Ansett pilots still seeking employment could find same, and I personally don't like the probable reasons why some aren't getting a look in with DJ. There is no doubt they are missing out on some very good people (that is not a disparagement of those they have taken - some very good people there too.) But, as someone pointed out on another thread, it's their train set, they can build it with a different layout to what we would prefer, and will still work well enough.
We don't have to like it, we do have to accept it.
Cheers
PS Ain't -ve item 5 the living truth!
I would surmise from your statements that despite what the gainsayers claim, they are probably on par with any other airline of that age - some good points, some bad, maybe different good and bad points to other airlines, but a balanced collection of both all the same.
As the French say,
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
I dearly wish that all of the ex-Ansett pilots still seeking employment could find same, and I personally don't like the probable reasons why some aren't getting a look in with DJ. There is no doubt they are missing out on some very good people (that is not a disparagement of those they have taken - some very good people there too.) But, as someone pointed out on another thread, it's their train set, they can build it with a different layout to what we would prefer, and will still work well enough.
We don't have to like it, we do have to accept it.
Cheers
PS Ain't -ve item 5 the living truth!
Ramboflyer, reading your diatribe leaves me in no doubt as to why you (and your friends should they share your views) are still unemployed.
A command at An does NOT make you overqualified for the regionals, however your attitude towards them demonstrates why you are still unemployed. Get out of the industry, oh thats right, you are!
A command at An does NOT make you overqualified for the regionals, however your attitude towards them demonstrates why you are still unemployed. Get out of the industry, oh thats right, you are!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Next door
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ARE YOU OLD ENOUGH??
I believe David Bowie once sang "ugly as a teenage millionaire"
The "Correct Attitude" is one of the most important lessons
learned from the right seat after 5yrs. I think if most of the
neophyte Capts. in VB were asked to be honest, they would say
that they "have it nailed" with just 1000hrs jet time. Is this the
correct attitude?
90% of the ex-AN Capts. are not a-holes. They can at least say
that they properly earned, deserved and most importantly,
appreciated their command.
I am very certain they would feel the same way about just
getting an interview with VB, let alone an F/O position.
The "Correct Attitude" is one of the most important lessons
learned from the right seat after 5yrs. I think if most of the
neophyte Capts. in VB were asked to be honest, they would say
that they "have it nailed" with just 1000hrs jet time. Is this the
correct attitude?
90% of the ex-AN Capts. are not a-holes. They can at least say
that they properly earned, deserved and most importantly,
appreciated their command.
I am very certain they would feel the same way about just
getting an interview with VB, let alone an F/O position.
Last edited by E.P.; 14th Dec 2002 at 01:04.
Ramboflyer
Where is your pride?
Many in the industry relish seeing you in the situation you are in! Whatever the motive or reason. You will find little sympathy in an industry with such hard attrition.
Give up on Singapore Domestic, Virgin Blue and Dragon.
I have no idea how difficult your initial "climb up the greasy ladder" was but you have to make the trip again.
No sympathy and no favours!
Another 50 to 60 exAnsett pilots are in the process of being employed by various airlines by mid January. Good luck and hope you are one of them.
Where is your pride?
Many in the industry relish seeing you in the situation you are in! Whatever the motive or reason. You will find little sympathy in an industry with such hard attrition.
Give up on Singapore Domestic, Virgin Blue and Dragon.
I have no idea how difficult your initial "climb up the greasy ladder" was but you have to make the trip again.
No sympathy and no favours!
Another 50 to 60 exAnsett pilots are in the process of being employed by various airlines by mid January. Good luck and hope you are one of them.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dear Richard Kranium (and his admirers)
Can you, just for a few minutes focus on the good news that VB exists at all...that it has given hundreds of people jobs (not just pilots but a lot of honest folks who wil NEVER earn what a young F/O does) and that it is growing fast and by building the travel market, creating left and right seat jobs that just wouldn't exist if the QF juggernaut continued unchallenged.
I don't fly for them and never will...but I sometimes fly on them and love it.
Remember, TAA was started by "mates" and they built a great airline...only to see it destroyed by those who would let hatred and spleen get in the way of sound professionalism. If you're not wishing an ulcer (or worse) on yourself, get some positive thinking into that Kranium and take some time to smell the roses.
We in the aviation world are all better off for VB's presence and if it only gets a C+ for recruitment practices well then that can only get better. There was a time I recall when the only assets needed to get a job in Australia were that you WERE NOT a member of the AFAP and had a thick skin.
Things sure have improved.
Can you, just for a few minutes focus on the good news that VB exists at all...that it has given hundreds of people jobs (not just pilots but a lot of honest folks who wil NEVER earn what a young F/O does) and that it is growing fast and by building the travel market, creating left and right seat jobs that just wouldn't exist if the QF juggernaut continued unchallenged.
I don't fly for them and never will...but I sometimes fly on them and love it.
Remember, TAA was started by "mates" and they built a great airline...only to see it destroyed by those who would let hatred and spleen get in the way of sound professionalism. If you're not wishing an ulcer (or worse) on yourself, get some positive thinking into that Kranium and take some time to smell the roses.
We in the aviation world are all better off for VB's presence and if it only gets a C+ for recruitment practices well then that can only get better. There was a time I recall when the only assets needed to get a job in Australia were that you WERE NOT a member of the AFAP and had a thick skin.
Things sure have improved.
Ramboflyer
I do sympathise with your situation.
What I am trying to point out is your plight is welcome by many Ppruners and alluding to difficulties over prejudice will only fuel this joy.
Why does Virgin blue have a propensity for 1500 hour pilots?
Because they will welcome the job, they are not underpaid like exCX exAN exEK in the position and consequently will pose little maintenance as employees and pose little industrial trouble.
The risk is their experience. This is has no doubt been weighed up commercially as a factor of a benign air environment!
Smart management really. Their skill at keeping wages down and morale up groundbreaking.
I do worry that Air Services has turned a blind eye to the fact that such inexperienced pilots receive such inadequete endorsement training.
Before a young VB 737 pilot admirably leaps to his companies defence, I will add the place is leaking like a sieve! The leakers have had exposure to airline ops worldwide and the appraisal balanced.
I do sympathise with your situation.
What I am trying to point out is your plight is welcome by many Ppruners and alluding to difficulties over prejudice will only fuel this joy.
Why does Virgin blue have a propensity for 1500 hour pilots?
Because they will welcome the job, they are not underpaid like exCX exAN exEK in the position and consequently will pose little maintenance as employees and pose little industrial trouble.
The risk is their experience. This is has no doubt been weighed up commercially as a factor of a benign air environment!
Smart management really. Their skill at keeping wages down and morale up groundbreaking.
I do worry that Air Services has turned a blind eye to the fact that such inexperienced pilots receive such inadequete endorsement training.
Before a young VB 737 pilot admirably leaps to his companies defence, I will add the place is leaking like a sieve! The leakers have had exposure to airline ops worldwide and the appraisal balanced.