Canberra wants more women in Aviation careers

[lucille]

Used to love my job when it was mainly daytime flying and paying peanuts. I was poor and happy as were all my peers.. And then unrelentingly I kept chasing greener pastures all over the world.. newer, faster, shinier and more $$$. The greener the pasture, the unhappier I became. I suspect I’m not Robinson Crusoe.

Is there such a thing as the “perfect” career?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Originally Posted by lucille

Used to love my job when it was mainly daytime flying and paying peanuts. I was poor and happy as were all my peers.. And then unrelentingly I kept chasing greener pastures all over the world.. newer, faster, shinier and more $$$. The greener the pasture, the unhappier I became. I suspect I’m not Robinson Crusoe.

Is there such a thing as the “perfect” career?

Perhaps getting older has changed our perspectives? Now as long as we have “enough” money, the more important “time with loved ones” becomes WAY more important.

I’ll leave the chasing of shiny new things to those that haven’t figured that out yet.

[601]

and older men have higher rates of chronic illness than women.

Is that a fact?

[megan]

and older men have higher rates of chronic illness than women

Tell that to my five year younger spouse and don't be surprised if she laughs in your face.

Is there such a thing as the “perfect” career

Came as close as possible, home every night, excellent equipment, good pay and conditions, still had the roster thing but you got the days off you asked for, very rarely denied, Xmas and such were shared equitably. But professionally you had to hang your ass out.

[framer]

But professionally you had to hang your ass out.

lol love that statement. Sounds like you knew exactly which side your bread was buttered on. Any chance of finding out which company and which decades?
​​​​​​​Thanks for the laugh.

[tonytales]

Not only a pilot's problem

Much of this regards the piloting profession.

Try being a mechanic. In the US, three years of attending an approved school, and you get your licenses. You look for a job. Happy days, Biggie Airlines is hiring. You join up, become a union member and – find out what seniority means. It means you end on Midnight Shift, Tuesday and Wednesday off. You get set for a vacation – Seniority Uber Alles – hope you like your October vacation because seniors (time with company) get first picks. Did I mention working outdoors in al weather?

An established station with its long-time mechanics means 10 to 12 years to make Swing Shift (afternoons) and you are still low on the vacation pick.

At one station I managed (later in my career), the junior person on Day Shift had 18 years of seniority. And Tuesday and Wednesday off. Of course, you might go to the Main Base and work inside a hangar. Unless you get bumped in a layoff and, having enough seniority, bump another mechanic at a distant station.

Yes, I did put in 12 years climbing ladders, twisting safety wire and tasting glycol while deicing before I got a job in training. Promotions followed but try being maintenance Manager at a line station where you are really on 24/7 duty and have to take responsibility to the VP for the acts of your worst employee.

Oh, and mechanic’s pay. Not substantially above a cleaner of baggage handlers who do work hard, BUT, do not have the responsibility of signing Airworthiness Releases. The FAA (USA) pays a lot more attention to your work than to those other folks. I have my FAA Charles Taylor Award for 53 years in maintenance without a black mark. It was an interesting career but how many could put up with those Christmas Days when I had to go to work?

[Clare Prop]

Try being a dairy farmer...four years at ag college, then 24/7/365 in all weathers. Christmas? Holidays? huh?
Interesting thing though, when I was at ag college in the 80s there was a ratio of about 10:1 boys to girls. Now I am doing another ag degree the ratio is about 1:30.
So women may not want to be pilots, but they are the vast majority of the people studying to be vets and farmers.

[missy]

Originally Posted by 10JQKA

https://www.news.com.au/national/vic...be32f521f54f25

In a statement to the Herald Sun a spokesperson from Airservices Australia spokesperson said: “Erin Scutter was employed by Airservices Australia as an air traffic controller from 12 February 2001 until 28 November 2002.”

Very surprised that an AsA spokesperson would release such information. I would've expected a simple "no comment".

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The cleaner in the staff car park didn't sacrifice an immense amount of money to get to where they are...

But as is oft pointed out, no one held a gun to your head.

The relationship between the pilots salary and the nations median salary has been reducing and as such pilots feel less ‘well off’.

And that's just going to be a "boo hoo" moment as far as anyone outside the industry (and probably many within it) is concerned.
No matter what you think you are worth, you are only worth what someone else is willing to pay. Right now, they don't think you are worth as much as you do.
Ultimately, you are still being recompensed for those "costs" to a greater degree than most who also bear them. Paying you how much more makes it ok to not be able to coach your kid's footy team, or miss birthdays?

[Ladloy]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

But as is oft pointed out, no one held a gun to your head.

And that's just going to be a "boo hoo" moment as far as anyone outside the industry (and probably many within it) is concerned.
No matter what you think you are worth, you are only worth what someone else is willing to pay. Right now, they don't think you are worth as much as you do.
Ultimately, you are still being recompensed for those "costs" to a greater degree than most who also bear them. Paying you how much more makes it ok to not be able to coach your kid's footy team, or miss birthdays?

It will be a boo hoo moment for the general public as the pilot pool dries up and airlines struggle into the future.

[framer]

No matter what you think you are worth, you are only worth what someone else is willing to pay. Right now, they don't think you are worth as much as you do.

I agree.
I’m not disagreeing with the concept of basic market forces though. What I am saying is that Airline executives and aircraft manufacturers are concerned that there will be difficulty continuing with the current levels of flying into the medium term future if we don’t retain our current pilot workforce and continue to train pilots at the same rate or faster than we have historically. They are aware that very little training went on during the pandemic and post pandemic the numbers of pilots training hasn’t bounced back as quick s air travel itself. Pilots are becoming less inclined to remain in the industry as the salaries on offer effectively get lower and lower ( buying power reducing with inflation and raises not keeping up with the neighbours). All I am saying is that a solution to the problem the executives are facing doesn’t just have to be increasing salaries like is happening in the USA, a solution can involve reducing the cost to the pilots that the Airline lifestyle imposes on them. ie temporal flexibility. The added bonus for the executives is that it will make the career much more attractive to approximately 50% of the population thus addressing their concerns about numbers of candidates.

​​​​​​​Ultimately, you are still being recompensed for those "costs" to a greater degree than most who also bear them.

There is no sense in comparing the costs, risks, investments and responsibilities of pilots to other professions when discussing the future of pilots contracts. The only motivation for that is emotional. Nobody outside of China or North Korea would compare the compensation of a construction site foreman with the cleaner so why would we be doing that here? Pilots contracts have a different balance of these things than other professions and will therefore have different reimbursement levels. My position is that the Airline executives can ensure enough pilots into the future one of three ways, 1/ increasing salaries massively 2/ Improving lifestyle, or 3/ a combination of 1 & 2.

​​​​​​​Paying you how much more makes it ok to not be able to coach your kid's footy team, or miss birthdays?

Approximately 30% more. Otherwise I will sell an asset I was planning on holding well into my retirement and retire early and leave a bit less to my children. Many others at my stage are thinking along similar lines

[The Love Doctor]

An interesting paradox with gender quotas has started rearing its head :
A lot of males who have once had a possible interest in a flying/pilot career (and males traditionally have more of an interest in flying than females) are deciding against it now as it is being heavily promoted as "woman's career" now by airlines in Australia.

Females generally aren't really interested in a flying career anyways and prefer to choose more lucrative paying careers after finding out how little pilots generally earn (compared to other professional careers) and hearing about airline managements poor treatment of pilots.

I discovered this after having a good talk to some of my kids friends (university aged). Both my kids have zero interest in a flying career.

Just an observation

[megan]

lol love that statement. Sounds like you knew exactly which side your bread was buttered on. Any chance of finding out which company and which decades?
​​​​​​​Thanks for the laugh

38° 13' 12" S 147° 10' 05" E last three decades of the last century

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

reducing the cost to the pilots that the Airline lifestyle imposes on them. ie temporal flexibility.

It's not that easy to offer temporal flexibility in a job situation where someone is expected and required to show up at a time and a place and do it, and if they don't someone else has to, otherwise there is a loss for the business. It's not like you can flex off, leave the desk vacant while you work from home, or leave everything and catch up tomorrow, and productivity doesn't suffer. If you want lifestyle flexibility in a 24/7 operational environment with a minimum staffing requirement, you need excess staff to ensure that there is always someone available to cover the flexibility provided to the group as a whole. Excess expensive staff sitting idle in case they are needed is a massive cost. Rather than pay 100% to someone to be the just in case, it's cheaper on paper to pay you the 30% and have you turn up when you are supposed to. At the moment they don't have to though, because they are finding there's always ways to find someone who'll accept say 80% of your wage to do the same job.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by The Love Doctor

An interesting paradox with gender quotas has started rearing its head :
A lot of males who have once had a possible interest in a flying/pilot career (and males traditionally have more of an interest in flying than females) are deciding against it now as it is being heavily promoted as "woman's career" now by airlines in Australia.

Females generally aren't really interested in a flying career anyways and prefer to choose more lucrative paying careers after finding out how little pilots generally earn (compared to other professional careers) and hearing about airline managements poor treatment of pilots.

I discovered this after having a good talk to some of my kids friends (university aged). Both my kids have zero interest in a flying career.

Just an observation

I'm doing some university study and have observed how about 90% of the students - and professors - on the agricultural and vet courses are women. When I studied in the 80s it was the other way round. I wonder if these careers are now seen as "women's work" now that technology has replaced a lot (but not all) of the need for physcial strength? It shows that proportions can change, but I wonder how most of those girls who are no doubt very brainy but look like a puff of wind would blow them away, are going to be able to do some of the stock tasks that are required?

[Annie_cherokee]

No lack of interest… it’s retention

Simply…. It’s not user friendly… it is an industry built solely on a full time dream. Sure.. the financial aspect affects both sexes, but at the end of the day, the girls have got the goods, and as yet, science is yet to figure out a way that we can palm off the baby baking to boyz..😜Women do want to fly, but the industry with all of its expirations on ratings, endorsements, and knowledge, means that it becomes a case of one or the other…circum to the pesky tick tock, or dream big…the careers councilor never stands up and says… now ladies… one day you may have to sit down and decide whether you want a kid, or you want 4 gold bars…Out of all of the women that hold a licence… I’d be very interested to see stats as to why they didn’t pursue a career as a commercial pilot. Oh.. P.S…
im sure this is a dilemma that faces women in many professions where being at the top of your field takes many years dedicated entirely to your craft..

[flyingkea]

This thread reminds me of that old joke about why are women paid less than men?
A: Because of the jobs they keep choosing! Female doctor, female computer engineer, female pilot etc...


My kids are old enough to be in school, yet my career is still being stalled. I have been told, to my face, that a particular company was not going to hire me because I had a kid. Who at the time was over a year old. Yet they had absolutely no qualms hiring my partner, when said kid was less than a month old. This was for a flying job where so long as you got the work done, you could basically set your own hours. (Instructing at a big school.) I managed to get an instructing gig when my second was 5 months old, and was told they would only consider full time, but would do 9-5 rostering. They lied. A lot of aviation is outside of daycare/oshc hours, so one of us had to make it work - pretty much always me. While family friendly work is difficult to find in aviation, it does exist, but you gotta operate with good faith.

Net result - my career is a good 8/9 years behind my partners, and honestly? It didn't need to be.

I'll not go into my current employment issues, as it's ongoing, but let's just say it is ultra ****ty atm, and I'm at the point where I just keep banging my head against the wall. How many times do I need to be screwed over before it gets too much? All I want is a fair go, and I'm not even getting that at the moment.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Net result - my career is a good 8/9 years behind my partners, and honestly? It didn't need to be.

So if you had split the outside daycare hours (and other job interfering duties) equally, would the result have been 2 pilots who were unable to turn up as and when required, vs only one? Are you equally qualified? Could you fill in for each other, so it didn't matter who turned up for the job? Or does one hold qualifications such that they are the one who has to turn up? I would imagine that if your partner had not been able to take certain jobs etc, due to 50/50 child care split, then the net result would be 2 of you 4-5 years behind everyone else...or both not working as pilots.

[flyingkea]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

So if you had split the outside daycare hours (and other job interfering duties) equally, would the result have been 2 pilots who were unable to turn up as and when required, vs only one? Are you equally qualified? Could you fill in for each other, so it didn't matter who turned up for the job? Or does one hold qualifications such that they are the one who has to turn up? I would imagine that if your partner had not been able to take certain jobs etc, due to 50/50 child care split, then the net result would be 2 of you 4-5 years behind everyone else...or both not working as pilots.

When we got together we were equally qualified - if anything I had slightly more flight experience.
But then I went on maternity leave, and he got a new job that start 1 month after bubs was born. I was happy to take a year off, and I wouldn't be complaining if I was slightly behind - but the issue was, it *just*kept*compounding.* Especially since I had companies explicitly state I had not been hired because I had a kid. So while I was unable to get work (and I tried) hubby was getting his instrument teaching approval, then his multi teaching approval, and his hours up so that he could move onto better and bigger things. While I was getting ever more uncurrent. If they had hired me, it honestly would not have changed my partners availability. And the sad part is, - for most guys that's not even a thought. But it is absolutely a consideration for women.

Our childcare requirements haven't really changed over the years - one of us need to be home outside business hours. And at times that has been us working opposite roster - usually hubby working the morning roster, and me on afternoons, or vice versa.

If they'd hired both of us, the net result would've been two pilots, both fulltime, with the occasional one off with a sick day, or if we juggled it right, not even off at all.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Good story.

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...solo-australia