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Old 22nd Dec 2023, 12:35
  #1261 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fonz121
Correct me if I’ve got this wrong, but if they can force you to work OT for a lower rate, then what’s the incentive to hire 100* pilots to fly for 60 hours a month at $100/hr* ($600,000), when they could hire 80 pilots to fly 75 hours a month for $546,000?

Essentially they will be motivated to make you work as much OT as possible.

*pilot numbers and hourly wage made up. Scenario based on OT rate being worth 45% less than normal rate.
I’m sure someone who spends 40 hours a week (perhaps sometimes more when they do some voluntary overtime) looking at an excel spreadsheet has long ago reached this conclusion, hence why they’ve dug their heals in over this abysmal ‘overtime’ rate. They’re barely bothering to hide their plans for east coast flying, and the time for which this job has any lifestyle component is probably measurable in weeks. Those 10 year captains’ new boats are going to be spending a lot of time in their pens- maybe they should look into a syndicate.
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Old 22nd Dec 2023, 21:16
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meatbomb01
okay.. why not flip it the other way and the mainline FO who’s desperate for a command quit and join network for a quick command?
Because mainline FOs on 737 out earn Network captains by 50k
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Old 22nd Dec 2023, 22:14
  #1263 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by soseg
Because mainline FOs on 737 out earn Network captains by 50k
Is that not comparing a mainline FOs total pay to a Network base only pay?
Im sure Network crews make more than bare bones base pay.

If history is anything to go by there will be no shortage of mainline FOs and SOs happy to jump at the offer of secondment & promotion regardless. Jetstar AU, Jetstar NZ, EFA to name a few past examples.
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Old 22nd Dec 2023, 22:55
  #1264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lapon
Is that not comparing a mainline FOs total pay to a Network base only pay?
Im sure Network crews make more than bare bones base pay.

If history is anything to go by there will be no shortage of mainline FOs and SOs happy to jump at the offer of secondment & promotion regardless. Jetstar AU, Jetstar NZ, EFA to name a few past examples.
Let me know what a Network captain realistically will gross this FY.

Jetstar LWOP during the GFC was one thing. The only other time people have really done it was during covid. So I guess managements only chance to lure pilots to jump across is to stand mainline pilots down due lack of flying.
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Old 22nd Dec 2023, 23:02
  #1265 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lapon
Is that not comparing a mainline FOs total pay to a Network base only pay?
Im sure Network crews make more than bare bones base pay.

If history is anything to go by there will be no shortage of mainline FOs and SOs happy to jump at the offer of secondment & promotion regardless. Jetstar AU, Jetstar NZ, EFA to name a few past examples.
Even if the QF FO earned 50k in allowances and extras, it still means the FO at mainline earns about the same as a Captain at Network, that’s the point.

Check that history by the way. Most secondments are quickly followed by a regretful WTF moment as they realise they left a stable, well paying job for something unstable, poorly paid, poorly resourced, and now they’re carrying the legal can for that operation, just so they can “progress their career”. Most leave with the same urgency as someone leaving a burning fuselage.

Vote NO!
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Old 22nd Dec 2023, 23:19
  #1266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by soseg
Let me know what a Network captain realistically will gross this FY.
I have zero idea because I'm sure everyone of them will gross something different depending on what or how much they work.

If someone chooses to work above the minimum is it not a tad misleading to say they are paid more than someone who refuses to work overtime or days off?
It moves away from a valid comparison which is why I asked the question earlier whether Network pilots will even get the choice to work overtime.

If they dont even get the choice then no amount of overtime or gross pay figures are going to compensate for a pineapple that size.
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Old 23rd Dec 2023, 03:37
  #1267 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno
But they are not going to get equal pay to mainline and if they want equal pay, then come and fly for mainline.

There are many good FO’s at mainline who have had years cut off their commands because of subsidiaries and I’m not for one second blaming the subsidiary pilots. But why should someone who’s been in the Group 5 minutes get a command in a few years or less, and then earn mainline Captain pay, when an FO in mainline isn’t afforded the same opportunity?
That remains a one-sided argument:
Then why should someone who comes straight off an ATR (NZ) or a REX SAAB go straight to SH 737 on day one and earn more (as touted here), than someone who's been (for example), a Network A320 FO for 5 years? (i.e. in The Group for 5 years)

In the end, everyone has a licence issued by CASA which affords them the right to operate whatever type they are qualified to do, at whatever rate they are willing to accept for their circumstances. Having 'superior' expectations because they passed a Mainline interview process ahead of for example another candidate with widebody experience who did not pass the auto-filtered test to get into Phase 1 of our process, should not make the rest of us think we are specially superior. If the best available (and eligible) pilots in the world are not in the room on Day 1, then we have no reason to believe that we are indeed superior and deserve more than anyone else - it is merely a process of selection, to which the trap doors have never been quantified.

Stay Humble - Australian Pilots are in this Together, no matter how Good / Bad / Entitled some may think they are
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Old 23rd Dec 2023, 03:42
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Originally Posted by morno
Sure, well when you can claim to be a verified expert in industrial relations, then I’ll listen to you. In the meantime I’ll listen to the legal department of my union which is a bit more informed than some experts on pprune.
You are a complete muppet if you work an RDO while all your “mates” are benched. End of story.
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Old 23rd Dec 2023, 05:02
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Originally Posted by Lapon
I have zero idea because I'm sure everyone of them will gross something different depending on what or how much they work.

If someone chooses to work above the minimum is it not a tad misleading to say they are paid more than someone who refuses to work overtime or days off?
It moves away from a valid comparison which is why I asked the question earlier whether Network pilots will even get the choice to work overtime.

If they dont even get the choice then no amount of overtime or gross pay figures are going to compensate for a pineapple that size.
They do not. Other than f&d limits and a 1,976 hour annual duty time limit (standby doesn’t appear to constitute duty for this calculation), the company has free rein. There are a few protections around being flogged in months with AL, sim, courses, etc, but the so called overtime threshold doesn’t represent any rostering limit.
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Old 23rd Dec 2023, 05:47
  #1270 (permalink)  
 
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What max yearly flight time are the Network guys working to? 900 or 1000 hours
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Old 23rd Dec 2023, 21:59
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
What max yearly flight time are the Network guys working to? 900 or 1000 hours
1000 hrs
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Old 23rd Dec 2023, 23:39
  #1272 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by davidclarke
Because an FO in mainline is afforded significantly better benefits and career options than a pilot at Network is. They have the option of a base in nearly every capital city. The chance to fly long haul or short haul. Career opportunities that a network pilot can only dream of. So asking for pay parity isnt a big ask.
Might pay to read the statements of whom you're applying to so one can not be misguided about what dreams may be.

At Network Aviation, we're incredibly proud of our West Australian heritage. Based in Perth, we play an important role in connecting communities and industries.We operate seventeen Fokker 100's and thirteen A320’s from Perth Airport, operating over 300 weekly flights to destinations throughout WA and beyond. These flights include Fly-in, Fly-out (FIFO) services for the resources industry, corporate charter, routine or emergency freight, as well as regular airline services on behalf of Qantas.
Our fleet of Dash-8, Q400, 300 and 200 aircraft proudly service regional Australia and connect regional ports with our capital cities.
​​​​​​​One of the world’s most experienced airlines, we operate a technically advanced fleet of Airbus (A380, A350 and A330) and Boeing (787 and 737NG) aircraft.As a Second Officer, you'll perform an essential role as part of the Qantas operating crew on our long haul services. Our Second Officers perform critical duties on our A380, A350, A330 and B787-9 aircraft.
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Old 24th Dec 2023, 03:11
  #1273 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShandywithSugar
Might pay to read the statements of whom you're applying to so one can not be misguided about what dreams may be.
Didnt know they operated A350🤦.
Seems like the idiots making these claims need to do a bit of research before they get foot in mouth disease.
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Old 24th Dec 2023, 06:40
  #1274 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by walesregent
1000 hrs
Absolute BULLSH1T!!
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Old 24th Dec 2023, 06:42
  #1275 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
What max yearly flight time are the Network guys working to? 900 or 1000 hours
Check and Training excepted; most would be lucky to move into productivity.
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Old 24th Dec 2023, 06:57
  #1276 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
What max yearly flight time are the Network guys working to? 900 or 1000 hours
Why do you ask?
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Old 24th Dec 2023, 23:14
  #1277 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by blubak
Didnt know they operated A350🤦.
Seems like the idiots making these claims need to do a bit of research before they get foot in mouth disease.
Not to defend the idiots who write that dribble but I've seen endorsements for A330 crew as A330/A350.
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Old 24th Dec 2023, 23:21
  #1278 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by YeahNup
Absolute BULLSH1T!!
The question was what limit applies
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Old 25th Dec 2023, 04:08
  #1279 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShandywithSugar
Not to defend the idiots who write that dribble but I've seen endorsements for A330 crew as A330/A350.
Thats because it’s a common type rating. They still can’t fly an A350 without some sort of differences training
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Old 25th Dec 2023, 04:10
  #1280 (permalink)  
 
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Absolute BULLSH1T!!
YeahNup which part of a 1000 hour annual limit is bulls h i t?
That was my question which was answered by walesregent.

The reason I ask is that for me if I was negotiating for myself, it makes a difference. It is a 10% variance. The difference between 900 hours over 46 weeks and 1000 hours of 46 weeks, assuming they can roster to use the limit. I am guessing from comments above that duty time is the limiting factor though.
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