Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Network EBA

Old 28th Mar 2023, 03:39
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: australia
Posts: 25
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
Iím sorry, but thatís an absolute load of horse shit.

It epitomises the Gen i attitude. ďWonít be my problem soon, so Iíll just shit on the people who are junior to me and who might work at Network one day in the future.Ē

It also proves my point earlier in the thread that Australian pilots have zero fkg concept that the lowest denominator on the pecking order controls not only their conditions, but to a large extent, those above them.

If people donít care because theyíre on the mainline hold file, theyíre pretty naive - because THEIR conditions at mainline into the future will be determined by how low the bottom of the industry is willing to go.

Make no mistake about it, Network pilots have a huge responsibility with this negotiation.

You only have to look at what happened at NJS. They got butt-hurt and scared with empty threats, and so they caved and signed a shit deal. Straight after, a whole bunch of them left because there was no long term future there. And the ones left behind who didnít have another plan are dealing with an absolute shit-show. Lastly, now the can has been kicked along the road and all other negotiations for group airlines and other Australian airlines have been made worse.

Please donít sell out on your mates, and on your own long term future. Stop being selfish children.

Regardless if youíve got a new job lined up, if you wouldnít work under those conditions into the future, donít vote it up. Youíre just pissing on the industry as a whole.

You accuse Qantas of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The real golden egg here is the best bargaining position Australian airline pilots have been in for 30+ years. Network pilots saying ďfk you, Iím just gonna look after meĒ are actually the ones killing the goose.
100 percent agree Pete!



maverick4442 is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2023, 03:46
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 2,025
Received 73 Likes on 49 Posts
Originally Posted by abaderrr
Didn't the washed up mainline blokes recently do the exact same thing?
The mainline SH EA variation from 737 to A321X was almost the same as the existing contract, minus a few minor things like reserve allocations. The union negotiated to keep almost all of the rostering protections intact. They were voting on something more similar to their existing conditions than the NJS pilots were, hence why it passed by a higher percentage. Not really comparable.
dr dre is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 28th Mar 2023, 04:48
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 167
Received 35 Likes on 22 Posts
Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete
You only have to look at what happened at NJS. They got butt-hurt and scared with empty threats, and so they caved and signed a shit deal. Straight after, a whole bunch of them left because there was no long term future there.
Empty threats? I've heard through multiple credible sources that NAA management was approached about drafting a proposal for the a220 should NJS reject it.

Happy to be given the facts if this widely circulating rumour isn't true.
soseg is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2023, 04:51
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: AUS
Posts: 62
Received 12 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by soseg
Empty threats? I've heard through multiple credible sources that NAA management was approached about drafting a proposal for the a220 should NJS reject it.

Happy to be given the facts if this widely circulating rumour isn't true.
Yeah cause they could totally crew a whole new aircraft, when they can't even crew their Fokker/Scarebus fleet.

So yeah, it was an idle threat.
Gunner747400 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 28th Mar 2023, 04:56
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 167
Received 35 Likes on 22 Posts
Originally Posted by Gunner747400
Yeah cause they could totally crew a whole new aircraft, when they can't even crew their Fokker/Scarebus fleet.

So yeah, it was an idle threat.
When the proposal was forced onto the NJS pilots the pilot shortage wasn't anywhere near what it is today.

Award A220 to NAA.
Slowly close down NJS 717
Suddenly a bunch of pilots needing to go somewhere?
soseg is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2023, 05:14
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kichin
Posts: 737
Received 31 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by soseg
When the proposal was forced onto the NJS pilots the pilot shortage wasn't anywhere near what it is today.

Award A220 to NAA.
Slowly close down NJS 717
Suddenly a bunch of pilots needing to go somewhere?
This is true however, will prove to be one of NJSís great own goals. The crew loyalty is at zero and NJS will not be able to crew the A220, nor will they attract enough experience from OS to make the initial period of the operation viable. They have bred a group of very angry mercenaries who will soon be demanding significant retention bonuses and/or leaving with a shiny new endorsement which they will use to live a good life on huge salaries elsewhere.

Last edited by gordonfvckingramsay; 28th Mar 2023 at 09:17.
gordonfvckingramsay is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2023, 03:17
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 153
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
Imagine 4 different AOCís all in the same group operating the same airplane! QF, EFA, JQ and NWK all flying the same jet with different pay scales, absolutely ridiculous. But hey we arenít allowed to compare are we? I wonder if the same applies to surgeons, doctors, dentists, police etc. Wake up people!
AviatoR21 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2023, 04:11
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sydney
Posts: 157
Received 31 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by AviatoR21
Imagine 4 different AOCís all in the same group operating the same airplane! QF, EFA, JQ and NWK all flying the same jet with different pay scales, absolutely ridiculous. But hey we arenít allowed to compare are we? I wonder if the same applies to surgeons, doctors, dentists, police etc. Wake up people!
Same job same pay or at the very least same conditionsÖÖ.the recently passed multi employer barging must be scaring IR right now.
davidclarke is offline  
The following 6 users liked this post by davidclarke:
Old 29th Mar 2023, 07:46
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 2,248
Received 37 Likes on 20 Posts
Ahh yeah, thereís this thing called PIA. Without it, youíre breaking the law.

So basically all of the above is not possible. But if it is, perhaps you could organise it?
morno is online now  
Old 29th Mar 2023, 13:07
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Burpelson AFB
Posts: 45
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
So everyone signed up to the mantra……..moniker here, tomorrow will be nirvana. The fact that you missed the slight of hand is your problem.

caveat emptor
Jack D. Ripper is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2023, 08:39
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: Earth
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are shit scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.
flyinghorseman is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2023, 01:58
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,314
Received 33 Likes on 19 Posts
In the top 737 captain pay level a day off gets four hours credit at crewing discretion, which pays circa $1,400 which is, anecdotally, about the minimum most people will work for.
Australopithecus is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 10th Apr 2023, 03:54
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: GAFA
Posts: 57
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by flyinghorseman
This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are shit scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.
Well said, this is 100% accurate. So by that it is to be taken that itís the F/Oís too scared to do anything meaningful and those wishing to stay in WA at all costs which are holding back the group. Sounds about right.

We donít need luck, we need crew who correctly value their skills and position. And are willing to take action if there expectations arenít met.
kimbobimbo is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2023, 05:51
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Location Location
Posts: 45
Received 6 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by flyinghorseman
This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are shit scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.
Pretty accurate.
I'd just add the following to point 2:

Some of those marginal captains who scrape through sims as FO's are in good standing at the local Jandakot aeroclub where they plied thier trade in the circuit before their Perth based Airline gig. Having had little exposure beyond the circuit and training area, in a valiant effort to hide their marginal flying skills, they find the best way to make use of that Grade 1 and make a nuisance of themselves in the training department of said Perth based Airline. There they find passing sims, just a tad easier than when they were just a lowly line pilot. Some with circuit hero bragging rights have even found themselves ensconsed in the lofty heights of training manangement, where they can really make a difference - to their own careers.

These aren't the people you'd trust to be still be around at the Christmas party when it's their shout, let alone have the pilots backs come EBA negotiation time.

Last edited by twentyelevens; 10th Apr 2023 at 12:00.
twentyelevens is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 11th Apr 2023, 04:57
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2023
Location: Sydney
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault
Really? Circa 400k for a QF 73 skipper? I call Bulls hit
Wash ya hands Warren and take your payslip out of your pink tights for us to all see. If not, get back in the crew rest and keep flogging
Johnny Cash IBE is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 05:19
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2023
Location: Sydney
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by sid-star
Pilots are not stupid .
Pilots did go on strike years ago - does 1989 ring any bells. The unintended consequences of this strike are still with us 34 years later.
I seem to remember the pilot unions said they would never use the letters but did. And you want to trust the unions?

oh, but wait, there were scabs then and Iím sure there will be more now. Did someone mention working RDOs for $350?
Johnny Cash IBE is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2023, 13:30
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Network Pilots should keep in mind, they are helping to pay that $24 million Alan just got and that very expensive party they are throwing for themselves in Sydney this weekend. Network is one of the most profitable sectors in the QANTAS group, just have a look at the enormous revenue the Qantas-Link group is banking in WA & tell yourself they are not taking the piss !
stevieboy330 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 26th Apr 2023, 13:14
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: Goblin Town
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes on 13 Posts
CPI eating the 4 Year (0+0+3+3)% QF gravy one Quarter at a time and thus when you sign, you'll already be POORER on the New Terms - Good Luck!


RealSatoshi is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 29th Apr 2023, 07:20
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
Posts: 1,664
Received 79 Likes on 41 Posts
Accept nothing less than 30%.

Air Asia is offering a better deal vs your mob, and I never thought that day would come, sad indeed. In fact, Woolworths are offering better cash for working on a day off vs this outfit. Get with the times people. Don't cave in like camp Jetstar did, pathetic and dumb.
PoppaJo is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2023, 09:23
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Wellington
Age: 38
Posts: 62
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flyinghorseman
This is how it worked in the wild west a few decades ago. The pilot group can
be catagorised in about 4 groups.

1. Professional conpetent crew who know their job and pass checks and will do what is right for the pilot group.
2. Crew (nominally 2-3 Captains) who are marginal at the job, scrape through sims and are shit scared to stand up industrially as their job hangs by the next sim. They fly during protected industrial action to garnish favour with the company, lap up the extra crumbs and diminish the effectiveness of industrial action.
3. With no firm seniority system the first officers seeking promotion don't wish to be seen to be militant (read- stand up to their rights) as they fear being by-passed for a command position.
4. A mix of the above who have rarely and in some cases never crewed an aircraft outside of Western Australia (flat earthers..) who crap themselves at the thought of moving interstate for another gig.

By example other group entities are paying a minimum of $2,000 to front up to work on a day off to crew or pax on a positioning flight. To consider doing this for a few hundred $$$ is obscene.

I am thankfully retired now but witnessed all the above involving individuals
who are now at the company in question. You have a huge advantage of having the troops in one crewroom in one base. And yet solidarity is still illusive. Ask yourself where you and your fellow pilots stand and wonder if they will stand with you or you will stand with them when the going gets tough.

Goid luck. You will need it all.
you cant even fail sims anymore
Jbrownie is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.