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Qantas pilot sues the airline for sexual harassment

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Qantas pilot sues the airline for sexual harassment

Old 2nd Nov 2022, 01:24
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The pilot has called for QANTAS to instigate a quota system as part of the filing in the Federal Court according to The Australian. Federal Court claim (paywall link)

By way of compensation, Forshaw demands she receives a pecuniary penalty, a monetary fine collected by the civil court, for the alleged harassment and discrimination she underwent while working at the airline. She has also ordered that Qantas establish a quota system to increase the percentage of female pilots it employs.
So the story is a little bit about quotas.

if-women-were-meant-to-fly-the-sky-would-be-pink (also paywall link)
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 01:40
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I don’t think the Federal Court could enforce a quota without falling foul of the Anti Discrimination Act, unless legislation was changed. It doesn’t appear the court has ever mandated a quota on an Australian company before.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 02:18
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Plenty of female aviation role models past and present. Tokens are not required.
I could list them but there's no need.
The people pushing the "role model" idea remind me of the Tracy Curtis Taylor debacle.

My heroes are Amy Johnson and Neil Armstrong, not because of gender but because they achieved what at the time seemed impossible.

I've read the "the sky would be pink" article, I worked with Louise many years ago, she is certainly one to stand up for herself and as a member of AFAP I'm very happy to have her stand up for me. But that has nothing to do with our gender.

While silly comments about making coffee are annoying, I will add here my only real gender based issue, 30 years ago when a passenger on a charter decided at 9500 feet to get his dick out and have a wank right there in the right hand seat because he "couldn't take his eyes off my legs". After landing I told the boss I was not going to fly with him again and I was sacked on the spot, because "he is our best customer and he can do what he wants". I'm just glad it didn't turn violent.

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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 02:42
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer View Post
The pilot has called for QANTAS to instigate a quota system as part of the filing in the Federal Court according to The Australian. Federal Court claim (paywall link)

So the story is a little bit about quotas.

if-women-were-meant-to-fly-the-sky-would-be-pink (also paywall link)
Sexism as a social issue falls into the Left camp when taken up. Discriminatory quotas (or other practices) are perfectly acceptable if they favour the left agenda which quota hiring does.

The Oz article linked to above fails to mention that according to their own chart of Global Participation Rates of Female Pilots, Australia is 1.7% higher than the world average; proportionally, nearly a third higher than average. From the illogical but sensationalist point of view which seems to be the only view that matters, that must mean our respect for women in Australia is a third better than the world average. We are leaders! What's she complaining about?

"We need to get the next generation (of women) thinking about being a pilot as a career.... and driving young women in the direction that boys get driven in."

This is a particularly disturbing outlook. I'm amazed the speaker holds the said-position. The next election might be very interesting.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 02:42
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
First principles, why does half of any profession need to be a particular gender? There is no reason.

Any person of either gender can graviatate to a role that they desire and are suited for.

That is already true. The fact that women choose not to rush into pilot jobs is not a problem to be fixed.
Tend to disagree. How can you gravitate to something that you are unaware of, have little access too, the minority that are there are belittled, treated differently, glass ceiling etc, because of your gender. We are a product of our environment. Because of that how can you consider something that is not in your sphere (therefore even consider suited for), and we are not talking now, inroads have been made, but 20+ years ago it was a very different story. By restricting the ability to utilise the whole work force we are restricting the success, profitability, professionalism of that work force. Argumentatively not an issue if you can fill all positions with what you have which is what happened years ago.

"The fact that women choose not to rush........" Why is that not a problem to be fixed? There are excellent female pilots out there from a very small base. Why would you not want more? Having done a few career expo's and asking the females about becoming a pilot the resounding response is no. Why, very simple it has not been proposed, thought of because "we are a product of our environment". This is also applicable to males. Not every single male has thought about being a pilot (or a multitude of other careers) because of their background.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 03:21
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How can you gravitate to something that you are unaware of?
Yes clearly schoolgirls are unaware that there are female pilots.

glass ceiling
There is no glass ceiling, it is a social construction for the purpose of rhetoric. We have had women chief pilots, women CEOs, a female prime minister, a female premier in every state and various ministers in both sides of politics. So where is the ceiling that is allegedly preventing this? The boss of our second biggest airline is a woman for goodness sake.

The often heard statement “if you cannot see it you cannot be it” is rubbish. Otherwise you would never have the FIRST black president, the first female Prime Minister etc.

"The fact that women choose not to rush........" Why is that not a problem to be fixed? There
Because so long as women have the same opportunity to become a pilot as a man, which they do, then the lack of equal numbers is meaningless. Why are you not arguing for equal engineers or more male cabin crew?

Women have less interest in the job of pilot. Do some research about male versus female brains at birth and in the first two years of life. We are programmed by evolution to be attracted to different “things”. This is not to say women and men are not “equal” except men struggle to gestate a foetus and as a result we expect the ladies to do that. They mostly seem to be drawn to that role, odd that.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 03:43
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Surprised no one has picked up on the latest NAPLAN girls out perform boys.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...567-1667356961
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:03
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post

Women have less interest in the job of pilot. Do some research about male versus female brains at birth and in the first two years of life. We are programmed by evolution to be attracted to different “things”.
That’s an interesting point as although females are attracted to different “things” are the “things” that make a good pilot now things women may have biological advantages in?

It’s not the 1930s anymore, the need for physical upper body strength to wrestle the non fly by wire controls of a rough as guts 30s contraption around the sky isn’t needed anymore. More emphasis in the modern multi crew flight deck is placed on “soft” skills like communication, conflict avoidance, team building, empathy, risk mitigation, consideration for alternate opinion, suppression of ego etc.

These are areas in which women may (not saying it’s a definite) have an advantage in. However it may not be adequately communicated to the public that the innate requirements of a pilot have changed, they may still think it’s primarily the domain of those who are to manually fight the controls of the plane like it’s the Southern Cross traversing the ocean in 1928.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:08
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I think that is absolutely true Dr. However it does not seem to motivate women to join the profession
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:13
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
I think that is absolutely true Dr. However it does not seem to motivate women to join the profession
It has changed but does the public knows it’s changed in their general consciousness? And to me these elements go far beyond gender.

I’ve been told that pilots in general are physically strong and good at sports (def not me), they all like adventure and extreme sports (def not me) and they all have big egos and are “alpha male” personalities (certainly not me). Now if I followed that popular opinion I’d be in a different profession.

So public consciousness of the makes a good pilot may need to change beyond just a point of gender. Who knows if potentially good male pilots who never fell into the above categories have been dissuaded from the profession? And some who were unsuited encouraged to take it up?

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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:16
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the need for physical upper body strength to wrestle the non fly by wire controls of a rough as guts 30s contraption around the sky isn’t needed anymore
You’re unaware that the B737 remains in widespread use here?
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:19
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard View Post
You’re unaware that the B737 remains in widespread use here?
Hydraulically assisted controls. You don’t need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to fly one
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:19
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
These are areas in which women may (not saying it’s a definite) have an advantage in. However it may not be adequately communicated to the public that the innate requirements of a pilot have changed, they may still think it’s primarily the domain of those who are to manually fight the controls of the plane like it’s the Southern Cross traversing the ocean in 1928.
Everybody knows that airline pilots are glorified bus drivers. This same conversation could be had for the myriad other jobs which tend to attract more males than females. Like merchant seaman. As for communicating to the public, jump on youTube - everything you need to know is there. If you surveyed who buys and plays Microsoft Flight Sim. you might get an indication of who is interested in what.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:30
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Hydraulically assisted controls. You don’t need to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to fly one
No, but it is a non-FBW, rough as guts 30s contraption.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 04:33
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The only barriers to ANYONE becoming a pilot, or anything else in this country are money and competency.
Competency will follow a normal distribution.
Which bring on the topic of, should certain flying scholarships be available only to women? (I say no, that is discrimination).

As an aside I am currently doing further study on a subject I previously qualified in 35 years ago, agricultural science, when there were ten guys to every girl. Now there are about 20 girls to every guy. Just an example of how things have changed and "it's a man's job" is not only illegal but very old fashioned to say.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 10:03
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Many years ago a friend of mine was a 727 F/O, she confided in me she was being sexually harassed by a certain FEO, she claimed every time she sat in her seat he would put his hand on the seat.

I was being checked by this person during an Adelaide overnight and after a couple of beers I fronted him with the accusations, which did not go over well.
The following day was very unpleasant and the debrief ended up in a screaming match.

I was not going to cop what he wrote me up for as I was operating IAW all SOPs.
After this unfortunate episode I was called up by the then FEO manager and asked to explain.

During the meeting with the FEO manager I should have told him what actually occurred but didn’t.

He scheduled a check by another Check F/E a short time later without any issues.

Just goes to show that this sort of shit did go on without any accountability.

Different these days.

IF anybody sexually harassed any of my children or grandchildren be warned!

Last edited by SRM; 2nd Nov 2022 at 10:04. Reason: Mistake
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 13:19
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Yes clearly schoolgirls are unaware that there are female pilots.

Admittedly life is much more aware nowadays than my time. There were 4 or 5 occupations that were available in the country when I was growing up and without the benefit of such things as the internet very few of my peers left the boundaries of the hometown. Simply put schoolgirls are unaware of all the career options available to them. In saying that they are significantly more aware than 50 years ago.

There is no glass ceiling, it is a social construction for the purpose of rhetoric. We have had women chief pilots, women CEOs, a female prime minister, a female premier in every state and various ministers in both sides of politics. So where is the ceiling that is allegedly preventing this? The boss of our second biggest airline is a woman for goodness sake.

Again we are talking about times in the past which becomes applicable to seeing a career as attractive when you have a number of gender peers in that profession. We had a Queen and a female PM, "for goodness sake".

The often heard statement “if you cannot see it you cannot be it” is rubbish. Otherwise you would never have the FIRST black president, the first female Prime Minister etc.

Right, so by some magical means you decide to become something that you have never heard of. So, no black politicians over the years prior to the FIRST black president, no females in politics prior to the first female PM?

Because so long as women have the same opportunity to become a pilot as a man, which they do, then the lack of equal numbers is meaningless. Why are you not arguing for equal engineers or more male cabin crew?

Do they have equal opportunity? A few years back no. And now, no as they have more than equal opportunity but what is lacking is the desire for those careers due to being a product of our environment which sub consciously imprints on them.



Women have less interest in the job of pilot. Do some research about male versus female brains at birth and in the first two years of life. We are programmed by evolution to be attracted to different “things”. This is not to say women and men are not “equal” except men struggle to gestate a foetus and as a result we expect the ladies to do that. They mostly seem to be drawn to that role, odd that.
Not at all odd being products of our environment. Why do women have less interest in the job as a pilot? Does not evolution mean evolving, you know changing. It was proven that when genders were given equal opportunities (Sweden?) that they reverted back to established roles, Not surprising given that evolution does not occur in a generation or two. Odd that? I am not a fan of quotas as they generally require a change of standards to achieve numbers.
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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 13:57
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It was proven that when genders were given equal opportunities (Sweden?) that they reverted back to established roles
Are genders not given equal opportunity in Australia?

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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 14:34
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More emphasis in the modern multi crew flight deck is placed on “soft” skills like communication, conflict avoidance, team building, empathy, risk mitigation, consideration for alternate opinion, suppression of ego etc.
So no requirement for the old skill of flying. No wonder we have aircraft that crash because basic flying skills are missing.
A colleague related on a flight in Europe. As it was a crystal clear day he did a visual circuit and landing. He showed exceptional skills by hand flying. The young FO asked after the uneventful landing "How did you do that"

Back for the thread, how many male Chief Pilots ( I am talking GA here) had advances made to them by the opposite gender who were looking for their first job or a step up the ladder?





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Old 2nd Nov 2022, 20:13
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From an engineering perspective I have found female pilots to be very knowledgable and professional.
When writing up a defect they have noted what happened, what they did and what then happened. This enabled me to quickly identify the problem.
I have had more than one male pilot come in with scant info for me, but tell me the FCU is buggered and needs changing. One can guess the response.
It is also great to see more females doing apprenticeships. They apply themselves to learning as they are genuinely interested and are high achievers. Never, when explaining something they have said to me “I know”
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