Qantas pilot sues the airline for sexual harassment
Originally Posted by Clare Prop
As a female who has been a professional pilot for 35 years this whole quota thing really does undermine the rest of us who have just got on with it. and if someone has made an inappropriate remark just given back as good as we get and laughed it off. It's usually just dumb banter, not malicious.
However calling someone a "token" is very malicious and only encouraged by the very small minority of female pilots who have an axe to grind.
The reason there are less female than male pilots is simple. Not as many women as men are interested enough in flying. That's it! The only barriers are money and the required competencies. If someone isn't interested enough or lacks the required skills they will not achieve the required competencies.
Did she really ORDER this or is it just bad journalism?
However calling someone a "token" is very malicious and only encouraged by the very small minority of female pilots who have an axe to grind.
The reason there are less female than male pilots is simple. Not as many women as men are interested enough in flying. That's it! The only barriers are money and the required competencies. If someone isn't interested enough or lacks the required skills they will not achieve the required competencies.
Did she really ORDER this or is it just bad journalism?
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
She didn't claim gender discrimination- any gender can be sexually harrassed.
Interesting that all the other comments are people triggered by the term "Quota"-guess they need a safe space.
Interesting that all the other comments are people triggered by the term "Quota"-guess they need a safe space.
When 5%-6% of pilots are female and they decide to hire 50/50 male/female? Yeah, that's really merit based. Just what we need. More people who can't hack the fact they arent command standard.
As someone said earlier, why the quotas with pilots?
Where's my 50/50 cabin crew?
Wheres the female bag loaders?
Where's 50/50 ground crew?
Where's the female engineers?
Seems like you only want more women in the more "prestigious" jobs.
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
But there are REASONS fewer woman choose to be bag slingers, due to the fact women on average are less physically strong.
I've written you up to my manager.
Expect a phone call soon.
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
If it were the case that "it all evens out" and societal roles get evenly split, that would br fine- but the fact that "female" roles almost always end up being lower paid and subservient to "Male roles" (think Doctor-nurse, Pilot-FA, Lawer-legal secretary) mean this isn't so.
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Originally Posted by onezeroonethree
Are you implying a nurse should earn the same as a doctor? FA same as a pilot? Secretary the same as a lawyer?
Originally Posted by Wizofoz
No. But there SHOULD be no reason nurses are predominently women or pilots predominently men.
Left to decide for themselves, men and women will display a predilection for some professions over others.
Interesting thread. The resistance against female pilots in both the military and airlines demeans us all as a profession. Back in the 80's, we were able to push through the resistance, and surprise, the general standard of the girls that entered the ranks was of a general standard, like the boys. The treatment of them wasn't equal, it was more often filled with resentment, which I found difficult to comprehend. Of all professions, why would sitting on your backside be considered to be gender dependent? Hanna Reich, Nancy Bird Walton, etc, surprisingly, female, and competent. Nadia of NTPS engineering fame, female, and able to stand tall against all she surveyed over her boots on her desk post flight. My mother, took up flying at 40, ferried aircraft around the world, and didn't make a big thing out of it. What is not reasonable is to harassed when conducting a professional duty, and certainly when doing something that purportedly the rest of us do as well out of enthusiasm and love of flying. Why is that either restricted to a gender, or something that should be considered with resentment?
Quota's have a place to ensure the restoration of balance to an imbalance that may occur naturally or through historical bias. Aviation has that bias, and when we stop the B/S of the bias there would be no need for the concept of quotas.
I have yet to fly with a pilot that was incompetent and was so due to a quota. I have flown with many incompetent pilots, and have had the frustration of attempting to ameliorate that level of incompetence. The two cases that I have dismally failed to mitigate were one male, and one female, and their incompetence was of a nature that had nothing at all to do with their standing or sitting to relieve themselves. They were not chosen for the gender or nationality, and they were not terminated for gender or nationality; they were terminated after some 200 hrs of concentrated flight time, they could not fly an ILS or maintain a speed anywhere near V2+10 for a departure, yet held CLP/ME/IR qualifications issues to a standard that beggars belief.
Harassment has no place, in the cockpit, home, office, anywhere. Harassment results in the victim being victimised, every single time. Who the victim is occasionally a surprise, The more that we divide the genders the greater the potential for harassment to be a factor, and equally the greater the threat of weaponising of allegations. The statistics favour the allegations, however, nothing can be assumed in relationships, except between a human and a dog. Dogs are easy, dogs are loyal, dogs don't need quotas, they love you anyway, Dogs dote on every word of wisdom you deign to espouse, dogs don't make those that are trying to maintain the last bastion of their gender worry about their seat at the table. Occasionally dogs do better radio work than I do, and can fly better on occasions. My dog used to fly on patrols with me, and she spent all of her time down at the galley eyeballing the steaks. (Engineers were responsible for her shape approximating mine in her later years). My dog went flying in the airforce before the airforce condescended to have it's first female pilot.
Time as an FO in Qantas does not reflect any competency issue in itself, only the FT-9s or whatever are being used there do so.
Quota's have a place to ensure the restoration of balance to an imbalance that may occur naturally or through historical bias. Aviation has that bias, and when we stop the B/S of the bias there would be no need for the concept of quotas.
I have yet to fly with a pilot that was incompetent and was so due to a quota. I have flown with many incompetent pilots, and have had the frustration of attempting to ameliorate that level of incompetence. The two cases that I have dismally failed to mitigate were one male, and one female, and their incompetence was of a nature that had nothing at all to do with their standing or sitting to relieve themselves. They were not chosen for the gender or nationality, and they were not terminated for gender or nationality; they were terminated after some 200 hrs of concentrated flight time, they could not fly an ILS or maintain a speed anywhere near V2+10 for a departure, yet held CLP/ME/IR qualifications issues to a standard that beggars belief.
Harassment has no place, in the cockpit, home, office, anywhere. Harassment results in the victim being victimised, every single time. Who the victim is occasionally a surprise, The more that we divide the genders the greater the potential for harassment to be a factor, and equally the greater the threat of weaponising of allegations. The statistics favour the allegations, however, nothing can be assumed in relationships, except between a human and a dog. Dogs are easy, dogs are loyal, dogs don't need quotas, they love you anyway, Dogs dote on every word of wisdom you deign to espouse, dogs don't make those that are trying to maintain the last bastion of their gender worry about their seat at the table. Occasionally dogs do better radio work than I do, and can fly better on occasions. My dog used to fly on patrols with me, and she spent all of her time down at the galley eyeballing the steaks. (Engineers were responsible for her shape approximating mine in her later years). My dog went flying in the airforce before the airforce condescended to have it's first female pilot.
Time as an FO in Qantas does not reflect any competency issue in itself, only the FT-9s or whatever are being used there do so.
I don't give a **** how many women pilots there are at qantas.
I don't give a **** how many they'll have in future.
When I get on an aircraft, I don't go 'look, a female pilot', it's normal stuff and it's normalising to the number of women who want to do it.
You're not the only gender being bullied and harassed, yeah, believe it or not some fellas cop it royal, for different reasons of course.
What is interesting about this case is whether the allegations are real, considering that it's been investigated and dismissed. This is real stuff, career and reputation destroying at worst, limiting is a 'good' outcome.
And just like the media destroying the chance of a fair trial in Canberra and the SJW's spewing hate, the irony is that he'll probably walk, guilty on not, because it is now impossible to get a fair trial.
I don't give a **** how many they'll have in future.
When I get on an aircraft, I don't go 'look, a female pilot', it's normal stuff and it's normalising to the number of women who want to do it.
You're not the only gender being bullied and harassed, yeah, believe it or not some fellas cop it royal, for different reasons of course.
What is interesting about this case is whether the allegations are real, considering that it's been investigated and dismissed. This is real stuff, career and reputation destroying at worst, limiting is a 'good' outcome.
And just like the media destroying the chance of a fair trial in Canberra and the SJW's spewing hate, the irony is that he'll probably walk, guilty on not, because it is now impossible to get a fair trial.
Last edited by tossbag; 1st Nov 2022 at 08:13.
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
I was until recently a night-freight pilot and there were women working the ramp along side the men. But there are REASONS fewer woman choose to be bag slingers, due to the fact women on average are less physically strong. What biological reasons are you claiming keep women from being pilots?
Stop quotas, be fair and the labour market will self regulate. On my previous comment I was remarking the fact that they always target the most attractive roles by salary or status. They don’t claim quotas to the less attractive ones like baggage loader.
What is interesting about this case is whether the allegations are real, considering that it's been investigated and dismissed.
52 years ago when I signed up for my first flying lesson (on a different continent) it was with a female. And to her credit she still is. It was never even a blip for either of us despite teenage hormones, etc) I don’t get the big mystique about female pilots, any more than I do about female doctors or dentists (both of which I have, happily). My female accountant on the other hand…no cheating. Where’s the fun in that?
in my previous life I was a T &C guy. My boss found it amusing to give me the female pilots who fell into three groups: 97% fleet standard, 2% no bueno and 1% NASA material. I still corespondent with a couple of that cohort and recall fondly the time we spent together, both during training and later on the line. Sex never came into it*, nor did gender. We just got the job done the best way we knew how given our primitive understanding at the time. I wish it was still that uncomplicated.
*carrier wave only, no modulation.
on edit…that 2% no bueno? Same as the guys.
in my previous life I was a T &C guy. My boss found it amusing to give me the female pilots who fell into three groups: 97% fleet standard, 2% no bueno and 1% NASA material. I still corespondent with a couple of that cohort and recall fondly the time we spent together, both during training and later on the line. Sex never came into it*, nor did gender. We just got the job done the best way we knew how given our primitive understanding at the time. I wish it was still that uncomplicated.
*carrier wave only, no modulation.
on edit…that 2% no bueno? Same as the guys.
I don’t believe it’s the same set of allegations. What’s been investigated and dismissed was recent. This is the follow-on to that unsuccessful action, and seems to be based on historical issues. One might question both the motive and timing, but then that’s not really a matter for this forum.
In that case, why weren't all of the allegations made in one claim? Something stinks.
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Where are all the female Formula 1 drivers? Moto GP riders?
There is one female garbage truck driver here in Noosa. You are already picturing her, but change your picture, she is a platinum blonde doll.
There is one female garbage truck driver here in Noosa. You are already picturing her, but change your picture, she is a platinum blonde doll.
Just to provide a little balance; at a ground course some years ago I was introduced to a British man who'd flown many years for an airline in the UK. He had something like 9000 or 12000 hours (I don't quite recall the exact number, however it was in that region), but had been an FO for all that, and other than his initial training had no PIC time.
He was a pleasant man whom I'd got to know, but during the course (on a type he had thousands of hours on) I was surprised to find him struggling with some things, and subsequently I don't believe he flew the 'plane this course was for.
Although, as with the subject of this thread, this is just a sample of one I suggest that he'd never held command for good reason. With regard to Ms Forshaw it's always possible that if she has wanted to upgrade, she may not have managed this for legitimate performance or other 'luck of the draw' reasons that are not gender related.
So, if lack of advancement forms part of her complaint (and I'd want to see the complaint verbatim, secondhand from a news article can lead to misinterpretation) I do hope the investigation is as dispassionate as possible on this matter, and is preferably conducted separate to any harassment matter. I should think that mixing the two would make it very difficult to differentiate where needed.
FP.
He was a pleasant man whom I'd got to know, but during the course (on a type he had thousands of hours on) I was surprised to find him struggling with some things, and subsequently I don't believe he flew the 'plane this course was for.
Although, as with the subject of this thread, this is just a sample of one I suggest that he'd never held command for good reason. With regard to Ms Forshaw it's always possible that if she has wanted to upgrade, she may not have managed this for legitimate performance or other 'luck of the draw' reasons that are not gender related.
So, if lack of advancement forms part of her complaint (and I'd want to see the complaint verbatim, secondhand from a news article can lead to misinterpretation) I do hope the investigation is as dispassionate as possible on this matter, and is preferably conducted separate to any harassment matter. I should think that mixing the two would make it very difficult to differentiate where needed.
FP.
The subject of quotas and female employment seems to be a never-ending cycle of discussion. I do not believe anyone is pointing out that females cannot do what males are doing. What is argumentative is the quota system. It is a vicious cycle. a) women are underrepresented in this field of careers. b) women do not wish to do this job or see this job as unattractive (due to many reasons from male domination to no women in that career) c) to attract more women to this area they need role models. d) we need to either introduce women or have more women in the area. e) introduce quotas so more women are employed in these areas allowing for role models that will then attract more women.
The downfall of this is when there is a lowering of standards to allow more women into this field due to not having enough applicants that meet the basic standard, with the excuse that once there are enough women in this field more will be attracted eventually raising the standard. Very obvious than that some women in this area, that are below the required standard, cause a negative perception on all women. Yes, there are men that have slipped through that should not have done so. As pointed out by Jordan Peterson, when a large company is forced to hire the same number of female engineers, quotas, as males there will be a lowering of standard's based purely on statistics. Big company has to hire 100 engineers. There are 1000 male applicants and 100 female applicants. Purely on statistics there is 10% of engineers (irrelevant of gender) that only got their degree because they were upright and breathing. Another 10% that will be extraordinary. 20% that are below average, 20% above average, with the remaining average. Given that you have to hire 50 females at best you may get 10 extraordinary ones, 20 above average, and 20 below average. At best for males, you may get 50 extraordinary ones. This does not help the view of women as engineers but if more women were engineers than......... and the cycle starts.
The downfall of this is when there is a lowering of standards to allow more women into this field due to not having enough applicants that meet the basic standard, with the excuse that once there are enough women in this field more will be attracted eventually raising the standard. Very obvious than that some women in this area, that are below the required standard, cause a negative perception on all women. Yes, there are men that have slipped through that should not have done so. As pointed out by Jordan Peterson, when a large company is forced to hire the same number of female engineers, quotas, as males there will be a lowering of standard's based purely on statistics. Big company has to hire 100 engineers. There are 1000 male applicants and 100 female applicants. Purely on statistics there is 10% of engineers (irrelevant of gender) that only got their degree because they were upright and breathing. Another 10% that will be extraordinary. 20% that are below average, 20% above average, with the remaining average. Given that you have to hire 50 females at best you may get 10 extraordinary ones, 20 above average, and 20 below average. At best for males, you may get 50 extraordinary ones. This does not help the view of women as engineers but if more women were engineers than......... and the cycle starts.
First principles, why does half of any profession need to be a particular gender? There is no reason.
Any person of either gender can graviatate to a role that they desire and are suited for.
That is already true. The fact that women choose not to rush into pilot jobs is not a problem to be fixed.
Any person of either gender can graviatate to a role that they desire and are suited for.
That is already true. The fact that women choose not to rush into pilot jobs is not a problem to be fixed.
