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"Qantas pilots lose union president after year of turbulence"

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"Qantas pilots lose union president after year of turbulence"

Old 2nd Jan 2022, 12:18
  #41 (permalink)  
Keg

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It seems clear now what Mr Proach’s angle has been all along.

AIPA on it’s worst day is still streets ahead of AFAP.
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 13:24
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Keg I believe you are inferring that I have an agenda to convert AIPA members to the AFAP. I didn't make any comments regarding AIPA representatives taking on company management positions. I don't consider it the proper thing to do however, it is not a unique circumstance and that is why that adage came to be. There are workplaces where employees are represented by more than one organisation and manage to effectively negotiate with company management. I believe this is possible providing each organisation has a strong membership base. My primary comment was to highlight that a proportion of members treat their representative organisations like service providers, they often don't contribute in any way other than pay some subscriptions and then blame the "organisation" for poor outcomes (like an ATM machine that short changes a cash withdrawal).
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 13:30
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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BTW Keg clever word play on the use of "angle"
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 18:25
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The_Equaliser View Post
Previous AIPA executives have moved into CP and DCP roles yet the the movement of NS to a middle ranking IR role is of concern! You have no idea and are a muppet who is probably part of the G20 group so thoroughly repudiated.
Actually, NS is now the head of IR for the whole airline, having replaced the nice lady from Freehills.

So not a middle manager at all, in fact a senior manager.
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 21:19
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I'm on the 737. There was an overwhelming sense from those I fly with, was that the AIPA President was clearly more focused on having the A380 stood up than the issues facing both the A330/ B787 (especially long term isolation, you only have to look at the current arguments about the DRW/ PDG and CNS/HKG flying to see how out of touch they are) and the allocation of Stand Up's on the B737 (some Junior F/o's I fly with have had 4 BP's more stood down than the senior F/o's in one of the bases).
From looking at the AEC results (yes, I did vote), it is time for a generational change in AIPA, hopefully someone like JL can become President, he seems to have a good working relationship with QF management, whilst having the ability to say no to them.
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 21:59
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FightDeck View Post
Most pilots think AIPA is largely irrelevant now. Anything the company wants in terms of cuts to pay and conditions they seem to get what they want exactly anyway so what value does AIPA really deliver? Most Qantas pilots would do anything for a shiny new toy so itís easiest workforce in the company to reduce terms and conditions.
What utter garbage. Easiest workforce to reduce terms eh?
Well letís see.
Baggage handlers - Gone. All sacked.
Fleet Presentation (cleaners) - Sacked.
Engineers - Jobs sent off-shore a decade ago.
Flight attendants - New pay rates for Domestic and International F/Aís who work 50% more for half the pay. Started 15 years ago and now the majority of the work force.
Mainline pilots - not a single forced redundancy and still the highest paid pilots in the country.

So yeah, really looks like AIPA are doing a sh1t job. But itís probably easy, everyone knows Qantas are always keen to look out for their employees.
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Old 2nd Jan 2022, 22:12
  #47 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by Mr Proach View Post
My primary comment was to highlight that a proportion of members treat their representative organisations like service providers, they often don't contribute in any way other than pay some subscriptions and then blame the "organisation" for poor outcomes (like an ATM machine that short changes a cash withdrawal).
On this we agree. Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my attribution of your motives however my previous final paragraph holds.

I also agree with Beer Baron on this. AIPA (in all itís guises over the years) has managed to retain terms and conditions that are still very good. Sure, there was a cohort that felt the A350 conditions should have been more closely aligned with the A380 but that fact that they ended up marginally better than the 787 is still a good outcome.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 01:01
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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BB, that summary of what has occurred across QF's workforce is very disturbing, it demonstrates QF's commitment to it's workforce (lets not forget the shareholders). This country is rapidly moving away from the egalitarian society it once was. Union membership is at all times low and you don't have to be Einstein to work out that low union membership directly correlates to no protection at work, diminished wages and working conditions. I think there is a strange irony in that many people want to migrate to this perceived land of milk and honey to escape oppressive regimes however, they are least likely to fight for wages and conditions because they've been conditioned by what they were subjected to in their country of origin. I don't think "workers" realise the how quickly their rights and conditions can be eroded. Australia and its allies frequently criticise China however, it's peoples' standard of living seems to be improving. I also notice that China takes action to limit the influence of large corporations. This is unlike of what occurs in the land of Oz where the huge multinationals diminish wages and working conditions, exploit our people and resources but pay very little if not zero tax (that money we contribute for the betterment of our society). What do our government ministers do? .... They express concern .... whoopty do!
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 01:11
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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This is unlike of what occurs in the land of Oz where the huge multinationals diminish wages and working conditions, exploit our people and resources but pay very little if not zero tax (that money we contribute for the betterment of our society). What do our government ministers do? .... They express concern .... whoopty do!
Australia was federated on the calls of large business to be able to sell goods across states without border taxes and duties, far from some ideology of the masses. This country has always been ruled by large business dynasties and monopolies, some of them were in the guise of government run. The mess with states in control of a lot of decisions is a result of this, and business finance and help promote our political parties (or at least one of them).
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 01:16
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Proach View Post
BB, that summary of what has occurred across QF's workforce is very disturbing, it demonstrates QF's commitment to it's workforce (lets not forget the shareholders). This country is rapidly moving away from the egalitarian society it once was. Union membership is at all times low and you don't have to be Einstein to work out that low union membership directly correlates to no protection at work, diminished wages and working conditions. I think there is a strange irony in that many people want to migrate to this perceived land of milk and honey to escape oppressive regimes however, they are least likely to fight for wages and conditions because they've been conditioned by what they were subjected to in their country of origin. I don't think "workers" realise the how quickly their rights and conditions can be eroded. Australia and its allies frequently criticise China however, it's peoples' standard of living seems to be improving. I also notice that China takes action to limit the influence of large corporations. This is unlike of what occurs in the land of Oz where the huge multinationals diminish wages and working conditions, exploit our people and resources but pay very little if not zero tax (that money we contribute for the betterment of our society). What do our government ministers do? .... They express concern .... whoopty do!
Mergers and acquisitions are at a record high. COVID has been good for big businesses as itís given them the ability to grow their businesses, destroy smaller opposition and competitors, screw their workers and dance around naked in all that extra money the Federal government gave them for job keeper. The greed, corruption and protection that big corporations receive is disgusting. The taxpayers are wearing this as Scomo and Fraudenberg lump us with $1trillion in debt. Democracy? Barely.

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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 03:03
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Paragraph377 View Post
Mergers and acquisitions are at a record high. COVID has been good for big businesses as itís given them the ability to grow their businesses, destroy smaller opposition and competitors, screw their workers and dance around naked in all that extra money the Federal government gave them for job keeper. The greed, corruption and protection that big corporations receive is disgusting. The taxpayers are wearing this as Scomo and Fraudenberg lump us with $1trillion in debt. Democracy? Barely.
Spot on! The workers funding their executioners.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 19:26
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if the management side of the industry will seek to capitalise on the affects of COVID on the aviation jobs market (the usual reduction in pay & conditions), whereas what should be happening is an increase in salaries to compensate for the vulnerability of piloting jobs to global heath events. (COVID has clearly demonstrated that). If not a salary increase then some kind of a (disaster) fund to support aviation workers during such events.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 20:33
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever Qantas has wanted to achieve in the last few EAís it has done so conclusively.AIPA hasnít changed the outcome of any agreement other than to recommend voting for exactly what the company proposed. Other than with the admission that there isnít much they can do about it.Aside from representing pilot welfare Iím not sure AIPA is really capable of achieving much contractually, other than a few very minor tweaks to whatever Qantas decide is going to happen.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 22:03
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FightDeck View Post
AIPA hasnít changed the outcome of any agreement other than to recommend voting for exactly what the company proposed.
How do you know that?
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 22:20
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Mergers and acquisitions are at a record high.
Do you have a link to any evidence on your assertion?
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 09:52
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Do you have a link to any evidence on your assertion?
Article behind a paywall. Up to you if you want to pay for it;

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/global-mergers-and-acquisitions-hit-record-high-at-5-8trn-for-the-year-l378d95wh

And;


https://www.ft.com/content/6dfdd78a-...0-144396524eb6

Thereís more info out there in cyber land, Iím not doing the work for you.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 18:10
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mohikan View Post
Actually, NS is now the head of IR for the whole airline, having replaced the nice lady from Freehills.

So not a middle manager at all, in fact a senior manager.
The term "Head of" in QF is not a senior management position. For example there is a Head of Base Operations and Head of Flying Operations, both report to the Chief Pilot (who's is 3 levels from the top).
There are at least 4 "Heads of" in IR. The "nice lady from Freehills" is the Executive Manager Industrial Relations which is the most senior IR role, she is still at QF.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 22:26
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FightDeck View Post
Whatever Qantas has wanted to achieve in the last few EAís it has done so conclusively.AIPA hasnít changed the outcome of any agreement other than to recommend voting for exactly what the company proposed.
Again, this is just nonsense.

Does anyone really believe that Qantasís wish list for the last EA included;
- A330/A350 multi-fleet flying Captain earning $350 an hour. Same rate as the 747-400. 5% more than the A330.
- Overtime beyond 12 hours (even at 50%) for a fleet that will fly out to 20 hour duty periods.
- Additional credits beyond 16.5 hours.
- 3% pay rises and back pay during every year of the pandemic (so far)

If Qantas got their own way the pay rate would be half and there would be no O/T or any other credit beyond flight hours.

Yes, I hoped for a better deal than we accepted in the end, and the companyís negotiating tactics were an utter disgrace but to suggest that AIPA did not improve the deal and fight off Qantasís worst impulses is laughable.
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Old 5th Jan 2022, 01:27
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Attended AIPA roadshow and spoke at length with two of the Captains on the negotiating team once the final package was released. No top secret info. The pay rates were as Qantas wanted them including B scale for new hire SOs. I was told negotiators wanted the higher hourly rate from the 787 and 787 style conditions with lower planning divisor but were unsuccessful. They got the pay rates Qantas put forward with significantly less overtime. So to look at hourly rate alone in iso is misleading. The planning divisor is also a lot higher as is the maximum divisor.exceeds current LH fleets and the 787. You got to work a lot harder for the same money and need to work more hours.
pilots also canít move between the A350 to the 787, nor can they move from the 787 to the A350 in same rank. Some little things here and there AIPA achieved around the edges but majority is exactly what Qantas put forward. I was told Qantas had a target for pay cuts of many millions per year and they got them. Wasnít told a figure but it was a lot of cuts in pay. The negotiating CPTís made it clear it wasnít ever much of a negotiation. I know the pilots were threatened to be outsourced from pilots from Timbuktoo but AIPA did nothing to counter that in the media or to members. All Qantas now have to do is threaten to outsource the flying and they can achieve what they want anyway with or without AIPA. Should be clear this isnít all AIPAís fault. The reality is AIPA are industrially redundant now anyway.Itís take it or leave it.

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Old 5th Jan 2022, 22:04
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Originally Posted by FightDeck View Post
Attended AIPA roadshow and spoke at length with two of the Captains on the negotiating team once the final package was released. No top secret info. The pay rates were as Qantas wanted them including B scale for new hire SOs. I was told negotiators wanted the higher hourly rate from the 787 and 787 style conditions with lower planning divisor but were unsuccessful. They got the pay rates Qantas put forward with significantly less overtime. So to look at hourly rate alone in iso is misleading. The planning divisor is also a lot higher as is the maximum divisor.exceeds current LH fleets and the 787. You got to work a lot harder for the same money and need to work more hours.
pilots also canít move between the A350 to the 787, nor can they move from the 787 to the A350 in same rank. Some little things here and there AIPA achieved around the edges but majority is exactly what Qantas put forward. I was told Qantas had a target for pay cuts of many millions per year and they got them. Wasnít told a figure but it was a lot of cuts in pay. The negotiating CPTís made it clear it wasnít ever much of a negotiation. I know the pilots were threatened to be outsourced from pilots from Timbuktoo but AIPA did nothing to counter that in the media or to members. All Qantas now have to do is threaten to outsource the flying and they can achieve what they want anyway with or without AIPA. Should be clear this isnít all AIPAís fault. The reality is AIPA are industrially redundant now anyway.Itís take it or leave it.
If the whole framework of industrial relations was structured on a "take it or leave it" principle, children would still be working in coal mines and industrial relations wouldn't even exist. With all due respect, this sounds like propaganda or poppycock.
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