"Qantas pilots lose union president after year of turbulence"
There are many parts to an airline, all of which consist of people who are 'skilled, talented and integral to the safe operation and the longevity of the airline', some being more so than others but every single employee has a valuable role to play. It’s an inescapable fact so please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!
TBH, even Australian Aviation can't get basic details right sometimes.
Those same people who write this garbage then go on to be media 'advisors' which is why every media release from major companies basically says nothing but is just a moronic drone on using as many weasel words and vacuous statements as possible. You know, like we used to say once, 'combining efforts'. Then sometime in the 90s it became 'reducing duplication' and now it's 'leveraging adjacencies'.
I often say, a bit less of that piffle and pretend words, someone needs to tell these people what a verb is versus an adjective and a bit more time spent getting basic things correct such as people's names.
It doesn't keep me up nights but it does annoy the crap out of me - TV journalists are worse - using expressions such as 'return back' or 'huge massive' or 'big giant'.
Quote: "......... please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!"
So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)
So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)
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Quote: "......... please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!"
So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)
So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)
P377, thanks for the comment (I did miss the odd letter here and there).
JB, the comment re the "This only skims the surface....." was in reply to your post. ( I haven't mastered the quote function)
JB, the comment re the "This only skims the surface....." was in reply to your post. ( I haven't mastered the quote function)
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I’m not bothered about grammatical errors mate, I make plenty myself. It was the body of your comment that I really liked, the correct grammar was irrelevant. Poor old Ken has been hanging around Pilot forums for years, you think he would have learned enough about a Pilot’s role by now???
Agreed. I shall do penance for that, but it was late and I was tired but no excuse. Thanks for pointing it out.
Quote: "......... please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!"
So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)
So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)
However, while Load Controllers can make a mistake that can potentially break something or cause an accident, in airlines at least there are several other people involved in the chain that provide an opportunity for errors to be picked up beforehand. Load Controllers don't do their work at 40,000 feet in a potentially hostile environment either so that's something they don't have to contend with that a Pilot does.
What used to get right up my nose was not just these facile 'People Team' or 'HR' 'Consultants' that didn't know anything, but those that would pick up a phrase here or there and pretend they're an expert as if it would fool anyone.
Mind you, Pilots are people too and are subject to all the behavioural variations that apply to everyone else. I remember distinctly being verbally attacked by not just a Pilot, but a senior management pilot (not the CP, but a Deputy) who came into my office ranting and raving like a lunatic accusing me of something I never said or overreacting in a way that would rival that tennis player from the 70s (name escapes me).
It was SO EXTREME I had to yell at him to get him to shut the hell up for a nano-second so I could get a word in edgewise.
I have to admit, I walked away from that exchange thinking "Jesus, and they let you fly a machine with 100s of people's lives at stake".
Isolated incident I know but it just shows that while some jobs seem to attract narcissists (HR), there are also other jobs that have narcissists in their ranks.
Yes AP, unfortunately you do. I think the key word is "management" pilot. Some are pilots who carry out additional management duties. Then there are the self serving opportunistic, manipulating, lying, low calibre, nasty sycophants who pursue these positions of authority because they know this how they can protect themselves and their job from threatening influences (which is usually just honest, decent and nice people). These types are usually very skilled in ingratiating themselves to those up the management tree and kicking anyone below. Unfortunately many pilots enter the industry via GA where intimidation and victimisation is not an uncommon management practice. Many pilots go to work under a regime of fear and favour. This culture is cyclic and often fosters the type of character you gave in your example. This is primarily why aviation HR management strive to destroy pilot seniority systems, they often advocate "best person for the job.... etc" however, the real reason they despise seniority systems is because they know it provides pilots with the greatest protection from unethical manipulative managers whose ultimate aim is to be able to freely victimise intimidate, victimise and harass any pilot who challenges them at any level. (Eyes to the floor and only look up when I give the order). The general public probably have this perception of this "Commander and Chief Captain" the reality is, you have management on one side and the regulator on the other, the "Captain" is just the "SCAPEGOAT" in the middle and he/she don't get to enjoy generous pension schemes or bonus packages.
From what I’ve been told it was the lowest voter return on record.Something like only 800 votes received out of 2200 plus pilots.Only 35-40% is dismal. most pilots think AIPA is largely irrelevant now. Anything the company wants in terms of cuts to pay and conditions they seem to get what they want exactly anyway so what value does AIPA really deliver? Most Qantas pilots would do anything for a shiny new toy so it’s easiest workforce in the company to reduce terms and conditions.
Nunc est bibendum
You’ve been told incorrect. Virtually identical voter turn out to 2019. Both 2019 and 2021 considerably better than 2018 and marginally better than the casual vacancy election held early in 2021.
Can review all the election information via the ROC website.
Can review all the election information via the ROC website.
Last edited by Keg; 2nd Jan 2022 at 07:25. Reason: Added the ROC website address. Thanks to the bloke who pointed it out to me. He knows who he is.
Wow FD that is disappointing, the pilots are the union, "AIPA and AFAP" are just names. Pilots often think of these organisations as third party entities. An organisation can only be as strong as it's membership. If the members do nothing they will have no influence over anything including pay and conditions. It is a very very simple fact but seemingly very very difficult for people to understand. (I suppose there may be a lot of apathy out there in the present times which doesn't help.)
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AIPA will be used as a company shop front used to rubber stamp and sell whatever Qantas wish to achieve.It all changed once a previous president used the position as a personal springboard to become the head of IR for Qantas.That position and individual is now tasked to completely undermine the pay and conditions of the profession.He’s also close to many in AIPA so expect the rinse and repeat of a reduction in pay and conditions to secure aircraft replacements .It’s been a very easy process for Qantas in the last few agreements.I suspect there will finally be a global shortage of pilots given significant retirements globally but AIPA is incapable of achieving anything but a complete capitulation in what Qantas will have already planned.
Previous AIPA executives have moved into CP and DCP roles yet the the movement of NS to a middle ranking IR role is of concern! You have no idea and are a muppet who is probably part of the G20 group so thoroughly repudiated.
TE, Ye old "The working class can kiss my @ss ... I got the foreman's job at last!" If the AIPA membership can't muster legitimate leadership, the AFAP has representative rights.