Keg I believe you are inferring that I have an agenda to convert AIPA members to the AFAP. I didn't make any comments regarding AIPA representatives taking on company management positions. I don't consider it the proper thing to do however, it is not a unique circumstance and that is why that adage came to be. There are workplaces where employees are represented by more than one organisation and manage to effectively negotiate with company management. I believe this is possible providing each organisation has a strong membership base. My primary comment was to highlight that a proportion of members treat their representative organisations like service providers, they often don't contribute in any way other than pay some subscriptions and then blame the "organisation" for poor outcomes (like an ATM machine that short changes a cash withdrawal).