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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 17th Jul 2020, 14:50
  #921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
You mean like Air NZ just did?
I think Iím going to have to spell this out another time, because I seem to be doing it every couple of posts on this thread:

New Zealand is not Australia
The law in New Zealand is different to Australia, as evidenced by this statement from an IR Law firm below:
Unlike Australia, there are no stand down provisions in New Zealand.
Employment Law Issues with Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Staff in Australia can be stood down, whereas staff in NZ canít.
So whatever is happening in Air New Zealand is irrelevant because itís a different country with different law.

Originally Posted by Keg View Post
They wonít fill the vacated SH F/O role with Ďsomeone elseí. Itíll be left blank and empty. There will be enough pilots left in SH to cover the planned flying for at least the next 12 months. Perhaps as much as 18 months depending on vaccine production. Certainly long enough to start bringing pilots back on from CR.
SH has always been the most flexible fleet. If the 330 is flying less domestically and trans Tasman that may be cause to stand up more 737 crew. As well as return of demand in the domestic market. Donít forget these forecasts are being done for the next 2-3 years. No one, not even the fortune tellers of PPRuNe, can predict what will happen over the next 2-3 years. On an earlier post I mentioned a 50% capacity return in Europe just weeks after lockdowns were lifted, 80% capacity return in China a few months after lockdowns and a return to full capacity in Japan expected within a few months. Short haul domestic flying is returning fairly rapidly over northern summer, and Iíd expect it to return here as the seasons improve as well. International a different story. I think itís very plausible (and totally legal) for the company to state no SH crew surplus is forecast at all over the next few years, ie no redundancy.

Last edited by dr dre; 17th Jul 2020 at 15:03.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 14:54
  #922 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Oz
Posts: 755
Can a Jetstar long haul pilot essentially knife someone on a narrow body?

Myself and my colleagues are most certainly expecting our wide body part of our base to get the chop, however all those in the left seat (and some right) on the 787 are all ex Airbus Command anyway and donít want to move cities. They are all ahead of us on the list. Basically they want my job. Some of those people I was informed this week have already been talking of taking my job which upset me this week. Iíve got both sides of the seat on the big twin gunning for my job. Thatís a lot of people.

I am happy to sit out for a year or two. Canít move the family so need to do what I can to maintain my position and fleet. CR would mean I would walk away from the job which would have a bad effect on my mental state considering this is all Iíve done for the last 25 years. Working at Woolworths now really is an eye opener.

Last edited by PoppaJo; 17th Jul 2020 at 15:05.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 21:19
  #923 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
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Can the moderator repeat Overspeeds post every second day please?
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 22:45
  #924 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: HKG
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Anybody with an AFR subscription happy to decode this please?

https://www.afr.com/companies/transp...0200710-p55att
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 22:48
  #925 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Yes they can, because Jetstar have one EBA covering all their pilots.

from a quick look at the FW website under the JQ EBA 2015

24.2 Application of Seniority

F - retention or demotion in the case of reduction of establishment

Jetstar will do whatís cheapest, which means keeping the longhaul guys stood down for as long as possible.



Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Can a Jetstar long haul pilot essentially knife someone on a narrow body?

Myself and my colleagues are most certainly expecting our wide body part of our base to get the chop, however all those in the left seat (and some right) on the 787 are all ex Airbus Command anyway and donít want to move cities. They are all ahead of us on the list. Basically they want my job. Some of those people I was informed this week have already been talking of taking my job which upset me this week. Iíve got both sides of the seat on the big twin gunning for my job. Thatís a lot of people.

I am happy to sit out for a year or two. Canít move the family so need to do what I can to maintain my position and fleet. CR would mean I would walk away from the job which would have a bad effect on my mental state considering this is all Iíve done for the last 25 years. Working at Woolworths now really is an eye opener.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 22:52
  #926 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Denmark
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Can a Jetstar long haul pilot essentially knife someone on a narrow body?

Myself and my colleagues are most certainly expecting our wide body part of our base to get the chop, however all those in the left seat (and some right) on the 787 are all ex Airbus Command anyway and don’t want to move cities. They are all ahead of us on the list. Basically they want my job. Some of those people I was informed this week have already been talking of taking my job which upset me this week. I’ve got both sides of the seat on the big twin gunning for my job. That’s a lot of people.

I am happy to sit out for a year or two. Can’t move the family so need to do what I can to maintain my position and fleet. CR would mean I would walk away from the job which would have a bad effect on my mental state considering this is all I’ve done for the last 25 years. Working at Woolworths now really is an eye opener.
JQ787 Pilot can not displace a JQ320 Pilot, so don’t worry to much mate. The EBA is misinterpreted by some older guys with this, they seem to skim over 24.2.1 for you, read that paragraph very slowly especially 2nd last line “Seniority will be a major consideration” that is not iron clad the company don’t have to use seniority in this case. So reality is JQ will not down train wide body guys in this environment simply can’t afford to. As for 320 crew the company has been quiet with what requirements in terms of numbers they need moving forward, again that same paragraph applies so if you’re in ML, BN, SY and maybe ADL you could be fine. Judging by your post you’re in CN or OOL I’m guessing.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 23:20
  #927 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Originally Posted by Overspeed1 View Post
The company has said again and again that they donít to do CR and I actually believe them. Wana know why? Because itís expensive. Not only do they have to cough up the CR payment, they have to pay out your leave balances and give you the required notice period all of which burns cash which they are doing everything they can to avoid. Itís why theyíre pushing the LWOP card so hard, because it costs nothing.

Im in the bottom 200 numbers so I am firmly in the danger zone. If it comes to it, Iíll go on LWOP as well to avoid redundancy but Iíll be damned if I offer it up to them before they release the VR numbers. There are 2 main reasons for this...

Any future job keeper scheme may exclude people on LWOP. I desperately need that money if I can get it. Interestingly, someone on the webinar actually said they have spoken to the ATO twice and they told him that anyone on LWOP should not be currently getting jobkeeper. Even if thatís not the case, the government has consistently said they are planning on tightening the future eligibility of jobkeeper, so watch this space.

Second, at the end of the SO webinar, Doug Alley even conceded that they would probably have to revisit LWOP after the 7th of August deadline in the event that they were forced to run a CR program. And why wouldnít they? Like I said, CR is expensive LWOP isnít. If it comes to it, surely they will continue to work their way up the list offering LWOP as required knowing people will likely take it over redundancy, hence saving the company money.

The company are not trying to arbitrarily axe X number of pilots. They are trying to manage a pilot surplus through the CHEAPEST means possible. The company have said it many times that LWOP is the cheapest and most preferred option (VR/early Retirement Packages for older pilots are a different proposition for a variety of reason I wonít bother listing). If you think that taking LWOP now is some cunning move because the company will definitely CR the bloke above you, then youíre not thinking it through. You might return to work a couple of months earlier than me if I go on LWOP in a few months from now but you might miss out on months of jobkeeper and I might never have to go on LWOP at all.
We should re-read this post every day!

They get it.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 23:36
  #928 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Melbourne
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Can a Jetstar long haul pilot essentially knife someone on a narrow body?

Myself and my colleagues are most certainly expecting our wide body part of our base to get the chop, however all those in the left seat (and some right) on the 787 are all ex Airbus Command anyway and donít want to move cities. They are all ahead of us on the list. Basically they want my job. Some of those people I was informed this week have already been talking of taking my job which upset me this week. Iíve got both sides of the seat on the big twin gunning for my job. Thatís a lot of people.

I am happy to sit out for a year or two. Canít move the family so need to do what I can to maintain my position and fleet. CR would mean I would walk away from the job which would have a bad effect on my mental state considering this is all Iíve done for the last 25 years. Working at Woolworths now really is an eye opener.
The other guys are spot on, seniority being a Ďmajor considerationí gives the company plenty of legal wiggle room to do whatever they want.

Even before COVID, I was reminded by quite a few guys to think carefully about going on the 787, because if JQ decided to get rid of that fleet there are no provisions in the EBA guaranteeing that weíd be retrained back to the A320.

Besides, similar to the QF A380, JQ wonít announce what theyíre doing with the 787 until they absolutely have to. Unfortunately for a year or 2, that could leave the 787 guys with a fair bit of ambiguity about what bases will remain open/closed and whether the fleet will remain at all.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 00:05
  #929 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post

Disgraceful.
Disgraceful? Pointing out that for almost 10 years you had only a handful of posts and in just over 4 months you have become a keyboard warrior? You have a weird definition of disgraceful.

What is disgraceful normanton is that you come this anonymous website and post with all knowing authority on a subject and yet refuse to do the same on Qrewroom. If you stand so strongly by what you type, post it where it actually matters on a website that is for Group pilots only - your colleagues, a lot who are under immense pressure right now - and not an anonymous board. If what you say is so important to be understood, because the pilot body just doesn't get it when you do, then why is it you don't post it there? Nobody is going to hold your opinion against you, they are either going to support it or point out why they think it is wrong. What is disgraceful is being an increasingly frequent poster on this website, and not on the one where protections are afforded, and is only for the people who this affects.

Read what overspeed typed. He gets what you don't.

Last edited by mmmbop; 18th Jul 2020 at 00:34.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 00:27
  #930 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sydney
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Can a Jetstar long haul pilot essentially knife someone on a narrow body?

Myself and my colleagues are most certainly expecting our wide body part of our base to get the chop, however all those in the left seat (and some right) on the 787 are all ex Airbus Command anyway and donít want to move cities. They are all ahead of us on the list. Basically they want my job. Some of those people I was informed this week have already been talking of taking my job which upset me this week. Iíve got both sides of the seat on the big twin gunning for my job. Thatís a lot of people.

I am happy to sit out for a year or two. Canít move the family so need to do what I can to maintain my position and fleet. CR would mean I would walk away from the job which would have a bad effect on my mental state considering this is all Iíve done for the last 25 years. Working at Woolworths now really is an eye opener.
If those guys on the jq widebody think jq are going to pay for 230 or so A320 endorsements they have rocks in their head. The Eba allows the company to effectively do whatever they want, and they will. And what they want to do is expend the least amount of capital possible. I got 99 problems but 787 blue shirts pushing me out of my job ain't one.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 00:53
  #931 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: 1000ft Markers
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by Overspeed1 View Post
The company has said again and again that they donít to do CR and I actually believe them. Wana know why? Because itís expensive. Not only do they have to cough up the CR payment, they have to pay out your leave balances and give you the required notice period all of which burns cash which they are doing everything they can to avoid. Itís why theyíre pushing the LWOP card so hard, because it costs nothing.

Im in the bottom 200 numbers so I am firmly in the danger zone. If it comes to it, Iíll go on LWOP as well to avoid redundancy but Iíll be damned if I offer it up to them before they release the VR numbers. There are 2 main reasons for this...

Any future job keeper scheme may exclude people on LWOP. I desperately need that money if I can get it. Interestingly, someone on the webinar actually said they have spoken to the ATO twice and they told him that anyone on LWOP should not be currently getting jobkeeper. Even if thatís not the case, the government has consistently said they are planning on tightening the future eligibility of jobkeeper, so watch this space.

Second, at the end of the SO webinar, Doug Alley even conceded that they would probably have to revisit LWOP after the 7th of August deadline in the event that they were forced to run a CR program. And why wouldnít they? Like I said, CR is expensive LWOP isnít. If it comes to it, surely they will continue to work their way up the list offering LWOP as required knowing people will likely take it over redundancy, hence saving the company money.

The company are not trying to arbitrarily axe X number of pilots. They are trying to manage a pilot surplus through the CHEAPEST means possible. The company have said it many times that LWOP is the cheapest and most preferred option (VR/early Retirement Packages for older pilots are a different proposition for a variety of reason I wonít bother listing). If you think that taking LWOP now is some cunning move because the company will definitely CR the bloke above you, then youíre not thinking it through. You might return to work a couple of months earlier than me if I go on LWOP in a few months from now but you might miss out on months of jobkeeper and I might never have to go on LWOP at all.
Time to re-read 🤣

I havenít post on Prune for over 15 years, but I couldnít let this post slip by in the current climate.
Overspeed has hit the nail on the head, great insight for someone at the bottom of the list - looking forward to flying with you when this sh#t is all dusted
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 01:53
  #932 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by mmmbop View Post
Disgraceful? Pointing out that for almost 10 years you had only a handful of posts and in just over 4 months you have become a keyboard warrior? You have a weird definition of disgraceful.

What is disgraceful normanton is that you come this anonymous website and post with all knowing authority on a subject and yet refuse to do the same on Qrewroom. If you stand so strongly by what you type, post it where it actually matters on a website that is for Group pilots only - your colleagues, a lot who are under immense pressure right now - and not an anonymous board. If what you say is so important to be understood, because the pilot body just doesn't get it when you do, then why is it you don't post it there? Nobody is going to hold your opinion against you, they are either going to support it or point out why they think it is wrong. What is disgraceful is being an increasingly frequent poster on this website, and not on the one where protections are afforded, and is only for the people who this affects.

Read what overspeed typed. He gets what you don't.
Since when have I claimed I'm an all knowing authority? God you talk some shit. You let your head and emotion get in the way of business. It's business 101. Try looking at it from a non-pilot perspective at what Qantas want and need to achieve.

Have a good hard think about why you rarely see junior crew posting on Qrewroom. Once you've worked it out let us know. Last time I looked on there the faithful whingers were claiming no changes to the EBA that was voted up only months ago. Now the company uses a clause in the EBA to the potential detriment of senior crew and it's suddenly unacceptable.

Overspeed makes some very valid points. I think if the government came out and said no JobKeeper extension on LWOP then the majority of people would stay stood down. If they approve JobKeeper extension on LWOP, base will be overloaded with LWOP requests.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 02:40
  #933 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Since when have I claimed I'm an all knowing authority? God you talk some shit. You let your head and emotion get in the way of business. It's business 101. Try looking at it from a non-pilot perspective at what Qantas want and need to achieve.

Have a good hard think about why you rarely see junior crew posting on Qrewroom. Once you've worked it out let us know. Last time I looked on there the faithful whingers were claiming no changes to the EBA that was voted up only months ago. Now the company uses a clause in the EBA to the potential detriment of senior crew and it's suddenly unacceptable.

Overspeed makes some very valid points. I think if the government came out and said no JobKeeper extension on LWOP then the majority of people would stay stood down. If they approve JobKeeper extension on LWOP, base will be overloaded with LWOP requests.
A little bit of research for you, perhaps (hint hint check the date): https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...#ixzz31ZzMarZV
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 02:54
  #934 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by Gazza mate View Post
Such a clever post based on reason, logic and a level head in stark contrast to the all knowing hot headed authoritative posts of Normanton. I suspect Normanton used to be a big dog in the airforce?
If you trawl through my post history like our mate mmmbop here, you will see I have already de-bunked that theory.

As I already said, overspeed1 makes some very valid points. I suspect the LWOP / stand down decision many junior crew will have to make will depend on the government allowing any Jobkeeper extension whilst on LWOP.

Originally Posted by ConfigFull View Post
A little bit of research for you, perhaps (hint hint check the date): https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...#ixzz31ZzMarZV
If your going to link something behind a paywall, copy it for everyone to see.

Bit of a different scenario wouldn't you say? Back then you could take LWOP and go overseas and work for Jamaican airlines flying a 737. These days your lucky to be stacking shelves at Woolies.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 05:15
  #935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
If you trawl through my post history like our mate mmmbop here, you will see I have already de-bunked that theory.

As I already said, overspeed1 makes some very valid points. I suspect the LWOP / stand down decision many junior crew will have to make will depend on the government allowing any Jobkeeper extension whilst on LWOP.


If your going to link something behind a paywall, copy it for everyone to see.

Bit of a different scenario wouldn't you say? Back then you could take LWOP and go overseas and work for Jamaican airlines flying a 737. These days your lucky to be stacking shelves at Woolies.
These days you are lucky if youíre a QF captain or FO stood down living off 6 weeks annual leave. Do the maths, thats probably more than a Woolworths stacker gets per year! And for doing nothing except maybe some personal networking and appear in the paper in front of some old flying relic. And still we want JK!? The Govt would have to be crazy to not asset test or income test the next round of JK. Certainly any QF Capt or FO donít need it. Many more real struggles in society than spoilt airline pilots. Give to SOís. That makes more sense.

All the years that many of you have been putting trash on Alan Joyce (who has done a great job) will now be paid for. Get ready to be screwed. Someone said itís not about getting rid of X number of pilots. That is true. Itís about getting rid of as many X number of pilots from coming back to the existing LH award. If you take LWOP, you will be deemed company friendly and when the new QF international starts up on new contracts, you will be in high demand. Either way, there are more pilots than future jobs. This round of CR is the beginning of the end.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 05:30
  #936 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
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This is what you get when HR is in charge of hiring.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 06:20
  #937 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
This is what you get when HR is in charge of hiring.
The truth and nothing but the truth hurts eh!
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 06:28
  #938 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat View Post
If those guys on the jq widebody think jq are going to pay for 230 or so A320 endorsements they have rocks in their head. The Eba allows the company to effectively do whatever they want, and they will. And what they want to do is expend the least amount of capital possible. I got 99 problems but 787 blue shirts pushing me out of my job ain't one.
Rocks in their heads eh. Lets not get emotional and work the problem.

All the JQ787 skippers are 9+ service so the payout is 16 weeks severance ($70K), plus 2 months notice ($38K), plus AL and LSL, lets say between 10 and 20+ weeks (anywhere between $45K and $90K+). So payout figures at a bare minimum of $110K all the way up to $200K+. That doesn't even encompass T&C Captains.

With an endorsement cost of $40K and displacement of A320 FO's with 1-4 years service (4-8 weeks severance), I think the money would be on JQ retraining the B787 crew onto the airbus fleet rather than CR. Lets hope it doesn't come to that for all our sakes!

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 06:28
  #939 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Originally Posted by Ruvap View Post
The truth and nothing but the truth hurts eh!
Truth? Looks to be prejudiced speculation to me. Which bit is the truth?

Last edited by SandyPalms; 18th Jul 2020 at 07:05.
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Old 18th Jul 2020, 06:30
  #940 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
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Ruvap's trolling. Best ignored.

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