QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
This is a little like a prisoners dilemma....however, the pilots have the advantage of talking to one another. If everyone agreed to not take LWOP (unless those that freely desired it) then the outcome is optimised.
Seniority is respected. The fewest number leave the company (as it costs them)
Protection of self interest is a killer...but understandable.
Seniority is respected. The fewest number leave the company (as it costs them)
Protection of self interest is a killer...but understandable.
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So a more senior pilot on SU and a more junior pilot on LWOP are both still employed by the company. The industrial agreements in place give the company the option to by pass the LWOP pilot in case of CR.
Both still considered employees of the company but the company has the option to discriminate.
I’d love to be the judge presiding over that one!
Both still considered employees of the company but the company has the option to discriminate.
I’d love to be the judge presiding over that one!
So let me get this straight , taking this concept of the “Immaculate Passover “ for LWOP pilots to the nth degree , you could quite possibly end up with a situation of a vast number of junior pilots being convinced and herded into taking LWOP by Management and their FUD campaign of being CR’d if they aren’t protected by Managements application of “MAY” as in LH EA 15.10.2 (b).
Let us say, for arguments sake , that a senior pilot with decades of seniority , or a middle ranking pilot for that matter, due to past practice and principle application of Seniority would in a normal world have a fair idea of where they stood in the scheme of things , as has been shown by the Company’s application in other past decisions regarding application of the concept of seniority .
Now these middle ranking pilots and above suddenly find themselves subject to being CR’d due to an arbitrary managerial interpretation of the contract which “convinced” a vast number of more Junior pilots into taking LWOP due to the supposed protections afforded if they capitulate ..and these middle ranking and above pilots so affected aren’t anywhere even close to the bottom of the seniority pyramid scheme !
Is this truely how the application of Compulsory Redundancy was envisaged?
One would think that the intrinsic concept of “last on first off “ as pretty straight forward !
Obviously not when viewed through the cynical prism of Qantas interpretation !
Talk about unintended consequences !
Come on , get real , how long would this cynical Company interpretation last under legal scrutiny?
What other long upheld tenants are Management going to “re-interpret” cynically in these “unprecedented “ times one wonders !
Let us say, for arguments sake , that a senior pilot with decades of seniority , or a middle ranking pilot for that matter, due to past practice and principle application of Seniority would in a normal world have a fair idea of where they stood in the scheme of things , as has been shown by the Company’s application in other past decisions regarding application of the concept of seniority .
Now these middle ranking pilots and above suddenly find themselves subject to being CR’d due to an arbitrary managerial interpretation of the contract which “convinced” a vast number of more Junior pilots into taking LWOP due to the supposed protections afforded if they capitulate ..and these middle ranking and above pilots so affected aren’t anywhere even close to the bottom of the seniority pyramid scheme !
Is this truely how the application of Compulsory Redundancy was envisaged?
One would think that the intrinsic concept of “last on first off “ as pretty straight forward !
Obviously not when viewed through the cynical prism of Qantas interpretation !
Talk about unintended consequences !
Come on , get real , how long would this cynical Company interpretation last under legal scrutiny?
What other long upheld tenants are Management going to “re-interpret” cynically in these “unprecedented “ times one wonders !
You want to dance around on your seniority yet when there is a clause in the EBA that legally allows the company to go around it, it's suddenly not acceptable.
Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
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So what happens to the junior SH pilots that didn’t take LWOP by Aug 7 ? I know the company have stated their position with regards to CR. AIPA have stated theirs. When it ends up in court resulting in AIPAs favour what happens then?
Any longhaul pilot and most second officers that started within the last few years could have be Shorthaul if they wished.
Seniority works very well going upwards. It’s the downwards part that it doesn’t.
To quote sunfish, ‘to put it another way’, do you think Qantas is going to spend 2 years retraining all the long haul guys to Shorthaul? By the time they’re all typed and checked out, long haul will be back.
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Thats correct. Redundancy happens when an employer doesn't need an employees job to be done by anyone. A genuine redundancy is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by anyone. A dismissal of a pilot whose job is not redundant is not a genuine redundancy if the employer still needs the job to be done by someone.
Interesting times indeed.
Interesting times indeed.
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But in the above examples you’re saying if enough people take LWOP mid range seniority LH FOs could be made redundant and returning SOs from LWOP would then fill those positions......at great CR cost and retraining cost to the company.
Plenty of people have spent time in SH before returning to LH so maybe cut the “too bad you had your chance” language.
Plenty of people have spent time in SH before returning to LH so maybe cut the “too bad you had your chance” language.
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Your missing the point that the CR is happening because there is a surplus right now. The position is not being made redundant and then instantly replaced by a person on LWOP. The LWOP pilot might not come back for 2+ years. In which case they are still technically employed by the company, and as advised by HR, they will return first. Only when external recruitment is required will the CR pilot come back at their original seniority position.
Or the company won’t do that and instead use the positions for the 747 RIN.
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I don’t mean the individual I mean the position.
Lots of mid range seniority FOs on the 787 and 330......those positions certainly aren’t being made redundant any time soon as they are likely to be the LH fleet going forward
Lots of mid range seniority FOs on the 787 and 330......those positions certainly aren’t being made redundant any time soon as they are likely to be the LH fleet going forward
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At the end of the day if Qantas says it’s a redundant position, then it’s a redundant position. It’s not something AIPA will win in a courtroom. Qantas own the train set, and they will do as they please.
It’s basically why SOs need to take LWOP.
As the guys at the top trickle down, Qantas probably can’t make SOs CR as the FOs lose a stripe along with Captains.
Of course Qantas could just build up a pool of SOs as the top move down and then make those positions redundant. However the easiest way to manage it is targeted VR at the top to prevent the downwards RIN and targeted LWOP at the bottom.
The ones I really feel sorry for are the recent transfers to long haul from Shorthaul who could be facing loss of a stripe. But it’s still better than nothing I guess.
Aviation really is messed up sometimes.
As the guys at the top trickle down, Qantas probably can’t make SOs CR as the FOs lose a stripe along with Captains.
Of course Qantas could just build up a pool of SOs as the top move down and then make those positions redundant. However the easiest way to manage it is targeted VR at the top to prevent the downwards RIN and targeted LWOP at the bottom.
The ones I really feel sorry for are the recent transfers to long haul from Shorthaul who could be facing loss of a stripe. But it’s still better than nothing I guess.
Aviation really is messed up sometimes.
Blueskymine
I largely agree with your take on the situation.
One question though. Even if this pool of S/O positions are made redundant, how does the company remove a senior S/O on SU so that a more junior S/O on LWOP takes the job.
Would that not mean that the retrenched S/O has been unfairly dismissed?
I largely agree with your take on the situation.
One question though. Even if this pool of S/O positions are made redundant, how does the company remove a senior S/O on SU so that a more junior S/O on LWOP takes the job.
Would that not mean that the retrenched S/O has been unfairly dismissed?
If the SO who is on LWOP is nearing their return date and there is a notice of CR, they’d be crazy to return. They’d apply for an extension and I’d see no reason why the company wouldn’t approve it.
So the senior SO is CRd, joins the retrenchment list and when all LWOP pilots return or the company starts external recruitment the retrenchment list pilots will have another shot after a HR driven process of some unspecified description, and if successful, return to their original seniority in the base and rank that’s vacant. (PER 787 SO).
These are the facts. They may not be what we all want to hear. AIPA won’t be able to challenge it for risk of a ruling against seniority which won’t be great moving forward and that is pretty much that.
The real concern is if every SO took LWOP, the oldies give the bird and stick around and the gators start snapping into the FO ranks. Whilst unlikely, (it’s unlikely anyone will exit the business involuntarily) it’s worth considering the ramifications (Tino has admitted this is a possibility) and perhaps tightening a few words and clauses in EBA11.
LWOP as far as I can see it is insurance. You’re giving up 6-12 weeks of annual leave for a six digit salary and maintaining your position while avoiding a HR driven process going forward. You’re also maintaining your rank, base and fleet (provided it still exists). If you join the retrenchment list, you won’t.
Last edited by Blueskymine; 17th Jul 2020 at 04:12.
If the junior SO is on LWOP at the time and there is a notice of CRs, and the senior SO is on SU, the CR may pass over the junior SO on LWOP and target the senior one. (At the companies discretion). Provided the junior SO took greater than 12 months LWOP by 07/08
If the SO who is on LWOP is nearing their return date and there is a notice of CR, they’d be crazy to return. They’d apply for an extension and I’d see no reason why the company wouldn’t approve it.
So the senior SO is CRd, joins the retrenchment list and when all LWOP pilots return or the company starts external recruitment the retrenchment list pilots will have another shot after a HR driven process of some unspecified description, and if successful, return to their original seniority in the base and rank that’s vacant. (PER 787 SO).
These are the facts. They may not be what we all want to hear. AIPA won’t be able to challenge it for risk of a ruling against seniority which won’t be great moving forward and that is pretty much that.
The real concern is if every SO took LWOP, the oldies give the bird and stick around and the gators start snapping into the FO ranks. Whilst unlikely, (it’s unlikely anyone will exit the business involuntarily) it’s worth considering the ramifications (Tino has admitted this is a possibility) and perhaps tightening a few words and clauses in EBA11.
LWOP as far as I can see it is insurance. You’re giving up 6-12 weeks of annual leave for a six digit salary and maintaining your position while avoiding a HR driven process going forward. You’re also maintaining your rank, base and fleet (provided it still exists). If you join the retrenchment list, you won’t.
If the SO who is on LWOP is nearing their return date and there is a notice of CR, they’d be crazy to return. They’d apply for an extension and I’d see no reason why the company wouldn’t approve it.
So the senior SO is CRd, joins the retrenchment list and when all LWOP pilots return or the company starts external recruitment the retrenchment list pilots will have another shot after a HR driven process of some unspecified description, and if successful, return to their original seniority in the base and rank that’s vacant. (PER 787 SO).
These are the facts. They may not be what we all want to hear. AIPA won’t be able to challenge it for risk of a ruling against seniority which won’t be great moving forward and that is pretty much that.
The real concern is if every SO took LWOP, the oldies give the bird and stick around and the gators start snapping into the FO ranks. Whilst unlikely, (it’s unlikely anyone will exit the business involuntarily) it’s worth considering the ramifications (Tino has admitted this is a possibility) and perhaps tightening a few words and clauses in EBA11.
LWOP as far as I can see it is insurance. You’re giving up 6-12 weeks of annual leave for a six digit salary and maintaining your position while avoiding a HR driven process going forward. You’re also maintaining your rank, base and fleet (provided it still exists). If you join the retrenchment list, you won’t.
Most of that is correct. The only thing that was said contrary to what you just wrote is that if the junior SO that is on 12 months lwop opts to extend their lwop as the company have stated there will be CR at the, for arguments sake, 13 month point, that pilot will not be bypassed for CR. Tino doubled down and said that junior pilot is only covered by the discretionary bypass, at this stage, for the period of their initial lwop period applied for prior to August 7th.
Therefore, the only way the junior pilot could avoid CR at that 13 month mark we are speaking about, would be to apply for more than 13 months lwop before August 7th. Eg. lwop for 2 years applied for prior to August 7th.
It’s a disgusting thing they’re doing but as it states in the eba, bypass is at their discretion. They’re drawing a line by using their discretion to bypass. Appalling.
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So let’s say for arguments sake that 50 S/O positions become redundant. And let’s say that the pilots who held those positions are all on LWOP.
The company bypasses them and retrenches the next 50 in seniority. The LWOP pilots take those jobs. The 50 who were let go , were let go from positions that were not redundant. I’d say they were unfairly dismissed.
The company bypasses them and retrenches the next 50 in seniority. The LWOP pilots take those jobs. The 50 who were let go , were let go from positions that were not redundant. I’d say they were unfairly dismissed.
Again, the LWOP pilots aren’t taking the redundant positions at that point in time. The positions are redundant.
So let’s say for arguments sake that 50 S/O positions become redundant. And let’s say that the pilots who held those positions are all on LWOP.
The company bypasses them and retrenches the next 50 in seniority. The LWOP pilots take those jobs. The 50 who were let go , were let go from positions that were not redundant. I’d say they were unfairly dismissed.
The company bypasses them and retrenches the next 50 in seniority. The LWOP pilots take those jobs. The 50 who were let go , were let go from positions that were not redundant. I’d say they were unfairly dismissed.
But as the positions become available again, you’d want to be on LWOP returning and not on the retrenchment list. One you work for the company and one you don’t.
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Most of that is correct. The only thing that was said contrary to what you just wrote is that if the junior SO that is on 12 months lwop opts to extend their lwop as the company have stated there will be CR at the, for arguments sake, 13 month point, that pilot will not be bypassed for CR. Tino doubled down and said that junior pilot is only covered by the discretionary bypass, at this stage, for the period of their initial lwop period applied for prior to August 7th.
Therefore, the only way the junior pilot could avoid CR at that 13 month mark we are speaking about, would be to apply for more than 13 months lwop before August 7th. Eg. lwop for 2 years applied for prior to August 7th.
It’s a disgusting thing they’re doing but as it states in the eba, bypass is at their discretion. They’re drawing a line by using their discretion to bypass. Appalling.
Therefore, the only way the junior pilot could avoid CR at that 13 month mark we are speaking about, would be to apply for more than 13 months lwop before August 7th. Eg. lwop for 2 years applied for prior to August 7th.
It’s a disgusting thing they’re doing but as it states in the eba, bypass is at their discretion. They’re drawing a line by using their discretion to bypass. Appalling.
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So little Johnny who's been a good chap and has been on LWOP, comes back from leave one day, and taps his senior mate on the shoulder.
He says G'day there Charlie move over I'm taking your position. Uncle Q smiles as he hands Charlie his CR notice. Charlie jumps up in a fit of rage, and says my job is being filled by another employee. Uncle Q says that's right you should have listened and gone on LWOP.
Mr Fairwork Ombudsman comes along and asks what? Tell me uncle Q was this so called redundant position filled by another? Why yes . Then tell me how is it that Charlies job was redundant when it had to be filled by another? Uncle Q ponders the question and says I'm not sure but I acted within the EBA. Then asks why? have I dismissed Charlie unfairly?
Charlie jumps with joy as he now takes his generous CR package and looks forward to his compensation package.
In the meantime somewhere in a far off galaxy........................
He says G'day there Charlie move over I'm taking your position. Uncle Q smiles as he hands Charlie his CR notice. Charlie jumps up in a fit of rage, and says my job is being filled by another employee. Uncle Q says that's right you should have listened and gone on LWOP.
Mr Fairwork Ombudsman comes along and asks what? Tell me uncle Q was this so called redundant position filled by another? Why yes . Then tell me how is it that Charlies job was redundant when it had to be filled by another? Uncle Q ponders the question and says I'm not sure but I acted within the EBA. Then asks why? have I dismissed Charlie unfairly?
Charlie jumps with joy as he now takes his generous CR package and looks forward to his compensation package.
In the meantime somewhere in a far off galaxy........................
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So little Johnny who's been a good chap and has been on LWOP, comes back from leave one day, and taps his senior mate on the shoulder.
He says G'day there Charlie move over I'm taking your position. Uncle Q smiles as he hands Charlie his CR notice. Charlie jumps up in a fit of rage, and says my job is being filled by another employee. Uncle Q says that's right you should have listened and gone on LWOP.
Mr Fairwork Ombudsman comes along and asks what? Tell me uncle Q was this so called redundant position filled by another? Why yes . Then tell me how is it that Charlies job was redundant when it had to be filled by another? Uncle Q ponders the question and says I'm not sure but I acted within the EBA. Then asks why have I dismissed Charlie unfairly.
Charlie jumps with joy as he now takes his generous CR package and looks forward to his compensation package.
In the meantime somewhere in a far off galaxy........................
He says G'day there Charlie move over I'm taking your position. Uncle Q smiles as he hands Charlie his CR notice. Charlie jumps up in a fit of rage, and says my job is being filled by another employee. Uncle Q says that's right you should have listened and gone on LWOP.
Mr Fairwork Ombudsman comes along and asks what? Tell me uncle Q was this so called redundant position filled by another? Why yes . Then tell me how is it that Charlies job was redundant when it had to be filled by another? Uncle Q ponders the question and says I'm not sure but I acted within the EBA. Then asks why have I dismissed Charlie unfairly.
Charlie jumps with joy as he now takes his generous CR package and looks forward to his compensation package.
In the meantime somewhere in a far off galaxy........................
Nope doesn’t work like that at all. I suggest you read more posts above and or listen to some webinars.