How good is Alliance!!!!
It makes no difference what is the right thing to do or not. Qantas will do what their bean counters tell them to do. QF management couldn't care less about fairness. I don't think fairness is a subject covered in an MBA.
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
Exactly!! Use the QF international guys as an absolute last resort. Give the jobs to pilots who need a job and will stay for the long term. QF pilots have been spoilt for too long, let them take the hit this time and invest in people who will stay.
Salty much...
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Just dribbling my weeties down my shirt imagining what Bain/VA said when they heard this
F.... .me, is there anything Alliance can't do!!!
Probably a good idea about now for Rex to get the Alliance boys and girls on the blower and transition their golden triangle Boeing startup to Jungle Jet wet lease. ASAP.
A 2/3 full E190 sorta works. A 2/3 empty 738 doesn't.
F.... .me, is there anything Alliance can't do!!!
Probably a good idea about now for Rex to get the Alliance boys and girls on the blower and transition their golden triangle Boeing startup to Jungle Jet wet lease. ASAP.
A 2/3 full E190 sorta works. A 2/3 empty 738 doesn't.
There's also a chance that some of Qantas' international pilots and crew will work on the nimble 94-seat jets. "Importantly, Alliance is keen to provide the opportunity for our international pilots and cabin crew to operate the E190s given it will be some time before overseas markets fully recover," Gissing says.
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Alliance expanding in TSV. Flights to Cloncurry and Cairns. Going up against Qantas. Not bookable on google flights/webjet etc, what is the rationale, are they hoping that Virgin onsells these flights in the future, or to show ACCC competition is alive and well?
Last edited by antheads; 5th Feb 2021 at 10:18.
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I just don't get it.
Talks are QF pilots who DO have a guaranteed place to go when things pick up will be employed whilst a fair number of pilots who do NOT have anywhere to go will not be considered?
Honest Q: from the airlines point of view what's the benefit?
Talks are QF pilots who DO have a guaranteed place to go when things pick up will be employed whilst a fair number of pilots who do NOT have anywhere to go will not be considered?
Honest Q: from the airlines point of view what's the benefit?
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Originally Posted by galdian
I just don't get it.
Talks are QF pilots who DO have a guaranteed place to go when things pick up will be employed whilst a fair number of pilots who do NOT have anywhere to go will not be considered?
Honest Q: from the airlines point of view what's the benefit?
Talks are QF pilots who DO have a guaranteed place to go when things pick up will be employed whilst a fair number of pilots who do NOT have anywhere to go will not be considered?
Honest Q: from the airlines point of view what's the benefit?
If they do go down this avenue I hope the QF pilots pay in full the type rating and training cost. We all know the first sign of international opening they will do what ever to get back.
Originally Posted by smiling monkey
So how will this work for the QF international pilots? They apply for LWOP at QF and then work under Alliance T&Cs? If so, that would be mean a significant pay cut?
Some of the announced flying are routes previously flown by QF mainline. By outsourcing this flying it will keep more QF pilots stood down, cancel training courses and reduce hours.
There are 12 A380’s in the desert and up to 12 E190 coming to fly QF routes. A token few roles flying the jets seems fair enough when you are stood down supposedly due to there being ‘no useful work’ for you to do. Clearly there is useful work to be done, but they are making a business decision (not COVID) to have someone else do it.
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron
It would be a significant pay rise for a stood down A380 pilot. In 3 years he’ll return to Qantas and someone else would fill the E190 job.
Some of the announced flying are routes previously flown by QF mainline. By outsourcing this flying it will keep more QF pilots stood down, cancel training courses and reduce hours.
There are 12 A380’s in the desert and up to 12 E190 coming to fly QF routes. A token few roles flying the jets seems fair enough when you are stood down supposedly due to there being ‘no useful work’ for you to do. Clearly there is useful work to be done, but they are making a business decision (not COVID) to have someone else do it.
Some of the announced flying are routes previously flown by QF mainline. By outsourcing this flying it will keep more QF pilots stood down, cancel training courses and reduce hours.
There are 12 A380’s in the desert and up to 12 E190 coming to fly QF routes. A token few roles flying the jets seems fair enough when you are stood down supposedly due to there being ‘no useful work’ for you to do. Clearly there is useful work to be done, but they are making a business decision (not COVID) to have someone else do it.
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All this discussion, but why should a QF pilot get first go on the E190’s with a complete separate company?
I understand the discussion around the NJS 717’s because it’s fully owned by QF. But now we are talking about a secondary company, doing contract work for QF that is otherwise completely seperate to QF (and the pilot group).
Why the hell should you guys have advantage over the Alliance guys? Why should you have first go over any other new hire to Alliance?
By all means, take LWOP from QF and go work somewhere else. But you should have the same opportunity as any other new joiner to Alliance.
I understand the discussion around the NJS 717’s because it’s fully owned by QF. But now we are talking about a secondary company, doing contract work for QF that is otherwise completely seperate to QF (and the pilot group).
Why the hell should you guys have advantage over the Alliance guys? Why should you have first go over any other new hire to Alliance?
By all means, take LWOP from QF and go work somewhere else. But you should have the same opportunity as any other new joiner to Alliance.
Originally Posted by aviation_enthus
All this discussion, but why should a QF pilot get first go on the E190’s with a complete separate company?
I understand the discussion around the NJS 717’s because it’s fully owned by QF. But now we are talking about a secondary company, doing contract work for QF that is otherwise completely seperate to QF (and the pilot group).
Why the hell should you guys have advantage over the Alliance guys? Why should you have first go over any other new hire to Alliance?
By all means, take LWOP from QF and go work somewhere else. But you should have the same opportunity as any other new joiner to Alliance.
I understand the discussion around the NJS 717’s because it’s fully owned by QF. But now we are talking about a secondary company, doing contract work for QF that is otherwise completely seperate to QF (and the pilot group).
Why the hell should you guys have advantage over the Alliance guys? Why should you have first go over any other new hire to Alliance?
By all means, take LWOP from QF and go work somewhere else. But you should have the same opportunity as any other new joiner to Alliance.
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
Maybe it’s a legal problem of stand down vs useful work - maybe hard to justify legally any expansion whilst guys are stood down.. maybe cheaper / easier to give them a cheap E jet job than pay them to sit around and do nothing? As much as QF would love to have them all stood down for years, it may not be legal. Whispers I’m hearing saying QF have got their wires crossed in what they will be allowed to get away with. Time will tell?
Originally Posted by havick
That still doesn’t answer ScepticalOptomist’s question, as he points out Alliance is in no way part of the QF group, they owe no special treatment to QF pilots than any other applicant.
No special favours for them, Alliance owes them nothing!!
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Alliance may be part owned by QF but it is not in any way a subsidiary or similar, it is a totally individual - and successful in a brutal business environment - entity who have the right to take on whomever they should choose for purposes of expansion.
There is no reason the cost effectiveness of having pilots stood down at another airline should enter their decision making.
There is no transfer of flying or similar, they would be operating as a contractor using their own staff to fulfil the agreed contract with QF.
The fact there is a "creeping assumption" from some that QF pilots will get any gigs is simply curious when there's a large supply of qualified pilots from different backgrounds that Alliance can consider, many/most whom do NOT have a guaranteed, industrially structured gig to fall back on.
As a sideline goes without saying that hopefully the current Alliance pilots will benefit from any expansion regards assignments etc but that's an internal consideration for Alliance management and its pilot group and no doubt will be a balance between fairness Vs cost effectiveness Vs practicality and whatever else you want to throw into the mix.
There is no reason the cost effectiveness of having pilots stood down at another airline should enter their decision making.
There is no transfer of flying or similar, they would be operating as a contractor using their own staff to fulfil the agreed contract with QF.
The fact there is a "creeping assumption" from some that QF pilots will get any gigs is simply curious when there's a large supply of qualified pilots from different backgrounds that Alliance can consider, many/most whom do NOT have a guaranteed, industrially structured gig to fall back on.
As a sideline goes without saying that hopefully the current Alliance pilots will benefit from any expansion regards assignments etc but that's an internal consideration for Alliance management and its pilot group and no doubt will be a balance between fairness Vs cost effectiveness Vs practicality and whatever else you want to throw into the mix.
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Qantas are paying for the introduction into service of the E-Jets. Not Alliance. Its a deal like with the 717s. The aircraft are owned by Qantas but operated by the contractor.
So because of this Qantas gets to decide who flys them. Not Alliance and not whingers about fairness on PPRuNe. Its a business decision Qantas has made.
The fact that the E-Jet seats will be available for Qantas mainline pilots, has been confirmed in an email by the current Qantas chief pilot.
The email says the endorsement costs will be covered by Alliance, but in reality QF will pay Alliance for this as well.
So the question is, why would QF do this ? Its not from the goodness of their heart. Its so they can keep the majority of the longhaul pilots stood down indefinitely without redundancy provisions applying.
At some point in the next 3-5 years, where mainline pilots are still stood down, but Network, Cobham and Alliance pilots are flying full lines and being paid their full salaries, somebody will challenge the refusal of QF to pay redundancy packages in court. The challenge being that those stood down pilots are actually redundant under the fair work act (they are actually redundant right now TBF)
That court case will fail if the complaining pilot can be proven to be have been 'offered' a position in another 'group company'.
Now my bet is the location of the E-Jet slots will be in places that are not popular with existing pilots who are settled with their families - say Darwin or Cairns - so the majority will not be taken up.
Last point again - QF will own these jets and will decide who flys them. In the same way they decided that mainline pilots could not fly for JQ or Network. This time they have decided otherwise.
So because of this Qantas gets to decide who flys them. Not Alliance and not whingers about fairness on PPRuNe. Its a business decision Qantas has made.
The fact that the E-Jet seats will be available for Qantas mainline pilots, has been confirmed in an email by the current Qantas chief pilot.
The email says the endorsement costs will be covered by Alliance, but in reality QF will pay Alliance for this as well.
So the question is, why would QF do this ? Its not from the goodness of their heart. Its so they can keep the majority of the longhaul pilots stood down indefinitely without redundancy provisions applying.
At some point in the next 3-5 years, where mainline pilots are still stood down, but Network, Cobham and Alliance pilots are flying full lines and being paid their full salaries, somebody will challenge the refusal of QF to pay redundancy packages in court. The challenge being that those stood down pilots are actually redundant under the fair work act (they are actually redundant right now TBF)
That court case will fail if the complaining pilot can be proven to be have been 'offered' a position in another 'group company'.
Now my bet is the location of the E-Jet slots will be in places that are not popular with existing pilots who are settled with their families - say Darwin or Cairns - so the majority will not be taken up.
Last point again - QF will own these jets and will decide who flys them. In the same way they decided that mainline pilots could not fly for JQ or Network. This time they have decided otherwise.
