Mt Erebus Disaster 40th Anniversary
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disregarding all the safeguards that had been built into the requirements for these flights to proceed to Antarctica,
and never having been down to the ice previously,
is flying a DC10 at 260+ knots, at slightly below 1,500ft
and not knowing his exact position, is blameless???,
How many of those previous Captains had the waypoints changed, without being let let know, the day before the flight?
How many of the previous Captains had been trained on the significant visual illusions that occur down there?
Does Collins being blamed 1%, 15%, 50% constitute piece of mind for the people that want desperately to see someone blamed?
In my opinion, of course Collins played a part in this disaster, but Holy ****................one of those scenic flights was doomed from the moment the first flight descended below 6000ft. That so many flights were completed prior to Collins flight is in itself pretty tinnie. But then again, the previous flights hadn't had the waypoints changed, the night before the flight, without notice to the operating crew.
Does Collins being blamed 1%, 15%, 50% constitute piece of mind for the people that want desperately to see someone blamed?
The answer lies in the middle folks, the answer lies in the middle.
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You are missing the main point.. The weather was way below the minimums laid down for any sort of descent into McMurdo, End of story..
It was recommended that the flight proceed to an area that was clear of cloud, by people qualified in Antarctic weather.
"That so many flights were completed prior to Collins flight is in itself pretty tinnie" Probably because those flights had weather far better than this flight.
.That is why I believe the Chippindale report on the accident, where he did not apportion blame, which is not the requirement of an accident report, it is to find the cause, states that the "probable cause" is a far more balanced report
It was recommended that the flight proceed to an area that was clear of cloud, by people qualified in Antarctic weather.
"That so many flights were completed prior to Collins flight is in itself pretty tinnie" Probably because those flights had weather far better than this flight.
.That is why I believe the Chippindale report on the accident, where he did not apportion blame, which is not the requirement of an accident report, it is to find the cause, states that the "probable cause" is a far more balanced report
Last edited by prospector; 8th Dec 2019 at 08:30. Reason: addition
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EXACTLY right prospector
1. Firstly, if everyone before you breaks the rules and gets away with it, at most all that history does is put your own actions into context when you break the same rules. It does not absolve you of responsibility when things come unstuck.
2. Secondly, no one who had gone before - descended as low as Collins did in the manner he did in the conditions he had.
1. Firstly, if everyone before you breaks the rules and gets away with it, at most all that history does is put your own actions into context when you break the same rules. It does not absolve you of responsibility when things come unstuck.
2. Secondly, no one who had gone before - descended as low as Collins did in the manner he did in the conditions he had.
India Four Two, a very nice touch and prudent post to end (until the next chapter) this debate.
Clearly wishful thinking on your part.
This thread reminds me of the following:
"What would you say to a time traveller who is from 50 years in the past?
I would tell him I have this amazing device in my hand that I can use to pull all human knowledge out of thin air and I use it to have arguments with total strangers!
I would tell him I have this amazing device in my hand that I can use to pull all human knowledge out of thin air and I use it to have arguments with total strangers!
Arguing on the Internet is like mud-wrestling with a pig. You can't win and the pig enjoys it.
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What if you don’t care much for apportioning blame yet cringe when your Prime Minister states that the Captain held no responsibility for the outcome of that particular flight?
Can I have some piece of mind around that? Shall I start flying the paying public with a different mindset tomorrow?
The answer lies in the middle folks, the answer lies in the middle.
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You are missing the main point.. The weather was way below the minimums laid down for any sort of descent into McMurdo, End of story..
1. Firstly, if everyone before you breaks the rules and gets away with it, at most all that history does is put your own actions into context when you break the same rules. It does not absolve you of responsibility when things come unstuck.
2. Secondly, no one who had gone before - descended as low as Collins did in the manner he did in the conditions he had.
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"With respect, how do you know how the other Captains (and crew) descended? Were all of the flights investigated in the detail this one was?"
No they were not, and that is why NZCAA had their hand smacked. They were supposed to be monitoring this operation, and I did hear through the grape vine many years ago that there should have been an Airline Inspector on Flt 901 that day, but due to family reasons he could not make it.
And of course all the other flights made it back so there was no need for any exhaustive investigations.
There was only one Accident report issued. Justice Mahon's was a legal opinion,
"
No they were not, and that is why NZCAA had their hand smacked. They were supposed to be monitoring this operation, and I did hear through the grape vine many years ago that there should have been an Airline Inspector on Flt 901 that day, but due to family reasons he could not make it.
And of course all the other flights made it back so there was no need for any exhaustive investigations.
There was only one Accident report issued. Justice Mahon's was a legal opinion,
"
Splitting hairs
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And of course all the other flights made it back so there was no need for any exhaustive investigations.
There was only one Accident report issued. Justice Mahon's was a legal opinion,
Whispering "T" Jet
Who would you have preside over this investigation? You would never get a public prosecutor because successive governments have already admitted Mahon got it right and has apologised to the victim's families on every anniversary of the accident.
Next problem is what witnesses do you intend to subpoena for the collection of evidence? Most of the bona fide players have either passed away or are no longer interested. Anyway, Mahon had already included removing the word blame in his final report.
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I requested a visual approach the other day, I was cleared with a 2000 feet restriction.
I had to descend to 1500 feet to maintain viz.
Did I stuff up if I descended into another A/C ? Answer is YES.
Pilot error.
I had to descend to 1500 feet to maintain viz.
Did I stuff up if I descended into another A/C ? Answer is YES.
Pilot error.
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Whereas your own child-like, rose tinted messianic view of Mahon report is .........well, not loveable.
Nonsense. Maurice Williamson, as Minister of Transport "tabled the Mahon report in Parliament". A symbolic gesture that means nothing, and without performing his own detailed analysis, could be considered an abuse of position. Jacinda Ardern said what she did a few days ago; but I would hold the opinions of Donald Trump, Kim Dotcom and my cat in higher regard when it comes to ascribing responsibility for the Erebus disaster. Neither of these equates to "successive governments have already admitted Mahon got it right".
True, and this is a shame. But you could still re-examine the evidence available and any competent observer would conclude that Air New Zealand, Civil Aviation, ALPA, and Jim Collins all committed errors in the absence of which the disaster would not have occurred.
True, and this is a shame. But you could still re-examine the evidence available and any competent observer would conclude that Air New Zealand, Civil Aviation, ALPA, and Jim Collins all committed errors in the absence of which the disaster would not have occurred.
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I love the child-like naivety of your suggestion Porter.
Who would you have preside over this investigation? You would never get a public prosecutor because successive governments have already admitted Mahon got it right and has apologised to the victim's families on every anniversary of the accident.
True, and this is a shame. But you could still re-examine the evidence available and any competent observer would conclude that Air New Zealand, Civil Aviation, ALPA, and Jim Collins all committed errors in the absence of which the disaster would not have occurred.
Last edited by The name is Porter; 9th Dec 2019 at 10:11. Reason: for purpley
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On the other hand, Mahon wrote that he felt the Commission was set up to pay lip service to the Chippindale report and simply rubber stamp it. This is evidenced by the fact the Commission was set up as a one man band. Mahon probably - and understandably - resented this, which made him vulnerable to manipulation by ALPA which they then took full advantage of.
Whispering "T" Jet
..........Neither of these equates to "successive governments have already admitted Mahon got it right".
Geoff Palmer, Jenny Shipley and John Key all apologised to the family victims on the 10th, 20th and 30th anniversaries respectively, so don't heap c**p on Jacinda. They are all merely acknowledging that tabling the Mahon Report in Parliament confirmed this was the official and only correct findings as to the cause of the accident.
............competent observer would conclude that Air New Zealand, Civil Aviation, ALPA, and Jim Collins all committed errors in the absence of which the disaster would not have occurred.
.........with the exception of Jim Collins and his crew. As confirmed in the Mahon Report.
Geoff Palmer, Jenny Shipley and John Key all apologised to the family victims on the 10th, 20th and 30th anniversaries respectively, so don't heap c**p on Jacinda. They are all merely acknowledging that tabling the Mahon Report in Parliament confirmed this was the official and only correct findings as to the cause of the accident.
............competent observer would conclude that Air New Zealand, Civil Aviation, ALPA, and Jim Collins all committed errors in the absence of which the disaster would not have occurred.
.........with the exception of Jim Collins and his crew. As confirmed in the Mahon Report.
Here (AGAIN) ends the lesson.
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How many times does the GPWS have to go off before you as a Captain would do something?
Is there ever and I mean ever, a requirement for you as crew to look at the INS waypoint you’re flew over and see where it is on a chart?
Having listened to the amateur hour podcast and read the accident report and Mahon’s dribble it was the F/E yelling Rad Alt who deserved an award if one is being handed out.
It never gets mentioned that Chippindale actually covered whiteout in his report.
Is there ever and I mean ever, a requirement for you as crew to look at the INS waypoint you’re flew over and see where it is on a chart?
Having listened to the amateur hour podcast and read the accident report and Mahon’s dribble it was the F/E yelling Rad Alt who deserved an award if one is being handed out.
It never gets mentioned that Chippindale actually covered whiteout in his report.
Piggy Muldoon was a tough old bastard (read his autobiography). Trouble with Piggy, on this occasion, he couldn't pick a winner. Ron Chippendale was a gentle giant and true gentleman and was therefore, obviously intimidated by Muldoon. He had to side with Air NZ (Morrie Davis was a big mate of Robby) and the government of the day. He just went too hard with the "pilot error" verdict which stirred up Gordon Vette and eventually resulted in the Mahon Inquiry. Again, Piggy couldn't pick a winner. He was sure Mahon would come the same conclusion as Chippendale. Alas, Mahon was an incredibly honest judge with a keen eye for the truth.
Here (AGAIN) ends the lesson.
Here (AGAIN) ends the lesson.
They were the ones who at the very end, flew a perfectly good aeroplane into a mountain. Sure there were many factors leading them to this position, but at the end of the day they still did it.
Please, I’m waiting......
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Piggy Muldoon was a tough old bastard (read his autobiography). Trouble with Piggy, on this occasion, he couldn't pick a winner. Ron Chippendale was a gentle giant and true gentleman and was therefore, obviously intimidated by Muldoon. He had to side with Air NZ (Morrie Davis was a big mate of Robby) and the government of the day. He just went too hard with the "pilot error" verdict which stirred up Gordon Vette and eventually resulted in the Mahon Inquiry. Again, Piggy couldn't pick a winner. He was sure Mahon would come the same conclusion as Chippendale. Alas, Mahon was an incredibly honest judge with a keen eye for the truth.
Here (AGAIN) ends the lesson.
Here (AGAIN) ends the lesson.
Still challenge all those “professional aviators” on here to tell me Colins wasn’t somewhat to blame because in a GPWS they would also do nothing after stooging around 12000 feet below safe MSA. Which would have been on the chart, if they’d looked. The sad part is the idea on the podcast that because the crew died they can’t be held accountable for their actions, in which case nothing is learned.
Prospector is 100% correct. Curious for anyone on the AirNZ DC10 was it SOP for FE to yell out Rad alts? or more likely was the FE so concerned about the flight in IMC and the fact that they stated they had no idea where Erebus was that he knew the GPWS wasn’t spurious and called the Rad alts to try to get the crew to do something and quick.
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I'll save him the bother. "Because the Hon. Justice Mahon declared the cause was the change in Navagation coordinates with the airline neglecting to tell the crew combined with the polar phenomenon of whiteout. His report is accepted by 107% of the world's population and remains unchallenged"