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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

Old 6th Nov 2019, 15:20
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post

And just in case some facts might help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcDrE5YvqTs
Many of the claims about a wage gap are exaggerated, but it's not as simple as that video suggests, either.

WHY are professions that are usually predominantly female paid less than those seen as mainly male? There was a time when there was a separate females' pay scale for the same job, so it's not surprising that valuable, qualified jobs, such as nursing, had low pay compared to a male dominated field like construction, and in times of collective bargaining and decreased Union clout, that has never been redressed.

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Old 6th Nov 2019, 16:07
  #42 (permalink)  
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From my experience simulator assessments are all about demonstrating a positive learning curve, stuff up a manoeuvre but get it right the next time is a big plus compared to a mediocre display throughout. It doesn't matter if the candidate has flown the type before, their ability to quickly learn and improve is what matters.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 18:24
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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“And just in case some facts might help.”

Rated De,

Facts are great.

But do you really want to be forming an opinion based upon PragerU?

Do some research into Dennis Prager and his website, where it gets its funding, what its motivation is and more importantly how often it is debunked as being nothing more than a mouth piece for anti gay, anti abortion, climate change denying racist christian fundamentalists and the oil fracking industry with just enough half truths and a slick expensive production value to make it appear credible.

Then start sourcing your “facts” from real data.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 20:39
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oicur12.again View Post
“And just in case some facts might help.”

Rated De,

Facts are great.

But do you really want to be forming an opinion based upon PragerU?

Do some research into Dennis Prager and his website, where it gets its funding, what its motivation is and more importantly how often it is debunked as being nothing more than a mouth piece for anti gay, anti abortion, climate change denying racist christian fundamentalists and the oil fracking industry with just enough half truths and a slick expensive production value to make it appear credible.

Then start sourcing your “facts” from real data.
The BLS data referenced is fact.
Prager U, with its puff actually borrowed the methodology from the BLS. That US Government report concluded a small wage gap too. As did a EU study, nothing of the magnitude that some elements of the media push either.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 22:24
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post
If women pilots really had any self respect they would reject the quota system and do it the old fashioned way.
Right...... so you seem to have concluded that women pilots have no self respect, which pretty much by default makes you part of the problem here. Exactly how would they "reject the quota system"? Refuse refuse to apply for their dream job, just in case they only got an interview as part of a quota? Wait until they get their acceptance letter and write back threatening not to take the position unless HR disclose to them whether their acceptance was quota-driven (which by default will probably get them an "ok then have a nice life" letter)? Did you even put 30 nanoseconds of thought into that comment?

They do not bloody know if their acceptance was quota driven or not! I have actually sat in the freaking cockpit of a Qantas aircraft during the cruise and been told that exact thing by one of the girls. And it concerned her, understandably, what guys would assume of her mere "presence" in the company.

My response was to the effect of "well as far as I'm concerned you passed the same training course as I did so it's a bit of a moot point - and from the other side, if I sat up all night worrying myself about how certain blokes made it into the company through an imperfect recruitment process, I would never sleep".

Last edited by DutchRoll; 6th Nov 2019 at 22:34.
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Old 6th Nov 2019, 23:11
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DutchRoll View Post
They do not bloody know if their acceptance was quota driven or not!
I agree that the individual does not know if they have been recruited due to a quota, but someone in that group most certainly has. Recruiting to a quota is discrimination, no matter how you spin it.

I would have thought a woke company like Qantas would be aware of that...
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 00:25
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post


A regularly overlooked point here. I know several long standing female pilots who cringe at the thought that their gender is effectively devaluing their hard work and dedication. If women pilots really had any self respect they would reject the quota system and do it the old fashioned way.
Why should the new ones care? Most people will gladly be a beneficiary of an “unfair” advantage anytime one arises. Does the bloke whose dad is a pilot, owns a plane and got his license for free at 17 have any self respect?

Sucks for the older women who cop it both ways, worked hard to get there and now get the downside of everyone seeing them as token females.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 00:25
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Slightly off topic but the claim that male and female pilots are paid the same, is only true for equal work. As a small example if you look at the most senior female pilots on the QF list you can state that they are paid the same as other pilots on the same type, but over a career have been paid less than the cohort they joined with due to opting to remain senior on type, rather than taking the promotions to higher paid aircraft that their cohorts generally elected to do.

This is a recurring theme for all the QF aircraft and positions that still operate a pure seniority list. Some have taken demotions off the 737 back to SO for the same reasons. (So have some men). It always struck me during my QF career as to the dearth of female pilots on promotional lists. Seniority on type and lifestyle control seems paramount.

However I had a very interesting conversation with a female SO who was married to another QF pilot who expressed frustration at the expectation that, when children would eventually come along, why was it her career that was expected to take the hit? She had a point.

Always when there are competing interests and rights, there will be conflict. Many male pilots express frustration at how the advent of carer's line mean they do reserve work far more frequently than in the past; to the detriment of their family life. QF isn't going to increase the pilot establishment to compensate for that.

The QF contract did not have any acknowledgement of female pilots at all until the mid-90's when the evident pregnancies of some of the earliest female pilots forced the issue. Seems hard to believe in hindsight.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 00:46
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 02:37
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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However I had a very interesting conversation with a female SO who was married to another QF pilot who expressed frustration at the expectation that, when children would eventually come along, why was it her career that was expected to take the hit? She had a point.
Perhaps the fact that nature has burdened her with the ability to have children and then feed that child with her own body. Maybe not.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 02:39
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rated De View Post
The BLS data referenced is fact.
Prager U, with its puff actually borrowed the methodology from the BLS. That US Government report concluded a small wage gap too. As did a EU study, nothing of the magnitude that some elements of the media push either.
It took the data from those sources. It's conclusions and emphasis are 100% ideology.

Like I said, the topic is complex, and overt-stated by people of an OPPOSITE ideology, but the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 02:43
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Perhaps the fact that nature has burdened her with the ability to have children and then feed that child with her own body. Maybe not.

But a Male has voluntarily agreed to become an equal parent.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 03:21
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Oh please. As an FO I've been burdened by the pressure of a female Captain. I am sure I am not alone
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 04:22
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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At the later stage of my career I certainly welcome more motivated young ladies into the profession. But anything QF does, certainly makes you cringe, with their expedience on some social issues of the day, whilst they ignore others. Noted some of the Machiavellian industrial conspiracies as to why you would want such a high number of females, though one issue with ladies I've noted over the years is a low rate of union participation.

In my day I loathed nepotism. Certainly hope no Daddy's boys are bemoaning affirmative action in the later stages of their career !
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 04:36
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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and tell me how many men you know who had the majority of child care after that?
Neither of us would know the answer to that but we can assume a small number. Isn't it up to the individual couple to make decisions? First of all to decide to have children and then to decide who will stay home (if anyone) to look after it/them. The woman will be out of action for the best part of twelve months for childbirth, that is simply an inconvenient fact of nature.
Interesting comment though, "why was it her career that was expected to take the hit? ". Well who said that it is? That is between her and her partner surely?

I have seen both extremes. Women who leave work to have their baby and cannot get back to work quick enough, leaving their offspring in the care of a professional organisation not family. Then there are those that never come back because they love motherhood. Surely it is their choice? Some seem to be suggesting you can be in two places at once.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 04:48
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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“Prager U, with its puff actually borrowed the methodology from the BLS.”

No, Prager have been very misleading with the findings of the BLS and painted a very inaccurate picture.

They do it all the time and in this case with the help of the American Enterprise Institute, those wonderful folk who managed to assist the Bush administration into lying its way into the Iraq war.

As for the argument about the gender pay gap, it doesn’t really apply to employees such as pilots who work under a collective pay system.

But it certainly applies to managers who sing for their supper.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 05:21
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Child care for men means supporting children well into their twenties. Wiping backsides for a few years is trivial.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 05:25
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Child care for men means supporting children well into their twenties. Wiping backsides for a few years is trivial.
So, Women don't financially contribute to their children? That really is a stupid statement , Sunny.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 05:49
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ruprecht View Post
I agree that the individual does not know if they have been recruited due to a quota, but someone in that group most certainly has. Recruiting to a quota is discrimination, no matter how you spin it.

I would have thought a woke company like Qantas would be aware of that...
The fact that "someone" would know is irrelevant to the original comment. The comment implied that it is the female pilot recruits who are the problem, the female pilot recruits who have no self respect, and the female pilot recruits who have all the power to magically detect if they were part of a recruitment quota or not, and wave their arms in the air to make it stop. All of which is complete nonsense.

In a 30 year aviation career I've not yet felt the inclination while flying with one of the girls (including very recent recruits) to grab the fork off the crew meal tray and stab myself in the eyeball just to end the misery of having to listen to them ramble on about politics, how great they are at flying, how much more of an expert they are than people who actually have accredited expertise on a given topic, or how many of the opposite sex they've slept with recently. Regrettably when flying with male colleagues, my eyeballs are often at risk. And that's all aside from the fact that I've seen no quantifiable difference in flying standards - after all, they do ultimately pass the same course, irrespective of how they ended up with a position on it.

I just think we guys could show a tiny bit of decency by not automatically assuming that any given new female recruit has used some sort of sneaky nefarious means to get where she is, and that if she passed the course and is released to the line as a new QF long haul pilot, then maybe, just maybe, she actually met the required standard and we can afford her the same level of respect as the guys who passed that same course. Alas, this is becoming far too much to ask for some of my male brethren and disparaging off-the-cuff remarks are becoming par for the course for some of them. It's almost like they actually think these girls have stolen their manhood or something.
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Old 7th Nov 2019, 06:13
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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In a 30 year aviation career I've not yet felt the inclination while flying with one of the girls (including very recent recruits) to grab the fork off the crew meal tray and stab myself in the eyeball just to end the misery of having to listen to them ramble on about politics, how great they are at flying, how much more of an expert they are than people who actually have accredited expertise on a given topic, or how many of the opposite sex they've slept with recently. Regrettably when flying with male colleagues, my eyeballs are often at risk. And that's all aside from the fact that I've seen no quantifiable difference in flying standards - after all, they do ultimately pass the same course, irrespective of how they ended up with a position on it.
Couldn't have put it better. I have been instructed by female pilots, I have instructed female pilots, I have flown with female captains, I have flown with female F/O's. No difference at all in how the job is done but a very big difference in the level of conversation and the topics covered!

If the airlines want to attract more females into piloting jobs then make it more family friendly and we can all benefit.
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