737 Type Freeze coming at Qantas: Crew shortage bites?
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Those numbers look about right. That FSO should create around 400 movements give or take. Plus 200 initial SO endorsements (I think they said 200 recruits) that would add up to the 600 odd they are expecting without the need for another allocation.
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That FSO should create around 400 movements give or take. Plus 200 initial SO endorsements (I think they said 200 recruits) that would add up to the 600 odd they are expecting without the need for another allocation.
Can you folk at Qantas provide a rough guess as to the training outcomes delivered in the last year?
Does Qantas have the capacity to train anything like 600 per year?
It would appear axiomatic therefore, that if Qantas can't train anything like that number, then a type freeze is entirely plausible.
Can you folk at Qantas provide a rough guess as to the training outcomes delivered in the last year?
Does Qantas have the capacity to train anything like 600 per year?
It would appear axiomatic therefore, that if Qantas can't train anything like that number, then a type freeze is entirely plausible.
Does Qantas have the capacity to train anything like 600 per year?
It would appear axiomatic therefore, that if Qantas can't train anything like that number, then a type freeze is entirely plausible.
But no, they can't do 600. It's also a quarter of the mainline pilot group.
Some courses, s/o initials and transfers may be included in that number but use far less resources.
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Extensive outsourcing
Where is the available sim time?
Available sim instructors?
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That will be interesting with every other airline seeking to do exactly the same to meet their crewing requirements.
Where is the available sim time?
Available sim instructors?
Where is the available sim time?
Available sim instructors?
Mr Joyce has a knack for putting whole companies off side. The 787 training requirement that Qantas wanted to procure externally was never secured. Rather amusing story from connections involved with Qantas' last bungled attempts to secure simulator capacity.
Last edited by Rated De; 14th Apr 2018 at 07:42.
Nunc est bibendum
Four pages of discussion and the only person pushing the 737 type freeze rumour is you Rated De.
And then you go and cast aspersions on a colleague using the terms 'specimen', 'this interesting character', and demean him with comments about a large ego. Personally I think it's freaking awesome that we have a pretty good strategic head who is a pilot working with the HR and other types to ensure that we don't run out of pilots.
You bang on all the time about how HR people and idiots don't understand the shortage is demographic and the minute we get a pilot in there (with a proven track record) you now start bagging him out.
You make some good points about Qantas and because of that I can ignore or look past the broken record ad nauseam content of your posts. I won't though stand by and have you throw crap at someone who served the pilot body's interests pretty bloody well over a fair period of time.
Want to take a shot? By all means do it. The cheap ones you're taking at the moment though demean your credibility and put you firmly in the 'troll' bracket.
And then you go and cast aspersions on a colleague using the terms 'specimen', 'this interesting character', and demean him with comments about a large ego. Personally I think it's freaking awesome that we have a pretty good strategic head who is a pilot working with the HR and other types to ensure that we don't run out of pilots.
You bang on all the time about how HR people and idiots don't understand the shortage is demographic and the minute we get a pilot in there (with a proven track record) you now start bagging him out.
You make some good points about Qantas and because of that I can ignore or look past the broken record ad nauseam content of your posts. I won't though stand by and have you throw crap at someone who served the pilot body's interests pretty bloody well over a fair period of time.
Want to take a shot? By all means do it. The cheap ones you're taking at the moment though demean your credibility and put you firmly in the 'troll' bracket.
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It is your colleagues at Qantas that communicated exactly what the said individual is doing.
It is publicly available on the rather impressive linkedin profile.
We didn't know. Our connections were focused on the extension of the skilled shortage visa and the quite plausible extension of the lobbying in Canberra to include Qantas 737. Coinciding with that is the project investigating how to address what is developing into a critical shortage on a mainline fleet. Qantas have been seeking advice outside Qantas, indeed outside Australia. Bit hard to see that from down there isn't it?
If you personally believe that this 'project' is to benefit your brethren and aimed at the integrity of the Qantas employment agreements then that is your subjective opinion.
Unless we are mistaken, you aren't Mr Joyce in disguise and don't actually run Qantas, so it is entirely possible that Andrew David wouldn't personally tell you what is being considered.
It is publicly available on the rather impressive linkedin profile.
We didn't know. Our connections were focused on the extension of the skilled shortage visa and the quite plausible extension of the lobbying in Canberra to include Qantas 737. Coinciding with that is the project investigating how to address what is developing into a critical shortage on a mainline fleet. Qantas have been seeking advice outside Qantas, indeed outside Australia. Bit hard to see that from down there isn't it?
If you personally believe that this 'project' is to benefit your brethren and aimed at the integrity of the Qantas employment agreements then that is your subjective opinion.
Unless we are mistaken, you aren't Mr Joyce in disguise and don't actually run Qantas, so it is entirely possible that Andrew David wouldn't personally tell you what is being considered.
So if not from the 737, from where?
Thinking about the airline's crewing issues, the upcoming cascade only goes to the 787 via (some from) the 330 to the (the rest from) the 737. The 737 is the current home of the airline's future. If there was a type freeze for both ranks from where would the 330 and 787 pilots come? I don't for a second expect that DEC and DEFO positions will ever happen at QF, especially not on widebody aircraft.
That Qantas has to train perhaps an additional 200 737 pilots next year is a natural consequence of both the lost decade and the unavoidable reality that the 737 is the junior type from which all progression must flow. ie: tough ****.
Thinking about the airline's crewing issues, the upcoming cascade only goes to the 787 via (some from) the 330 to the (the rest from) the 737. The 737 is the current home of the airline's future. If there was a type freeze for both ranks from where would the 330 and 787 pilots come? I don't for a second expect that DEC and DEFO positions will ever happen at QF, especially not on widebody aircraft.
That Qantas has to train perhaps an additional 200 737 pilots next year is a natural consequence of both the lost decade and the unavoidable reality that the 737 is the junior type from which all progression must flow. ie: tough ****.
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I have to agree that this thread really is bogus. There is no “talk” of this. It wasn’t long ago that “sources inside Qantas” were suggesting that A330 pilots would be frozen, as it’s easier to train 737 pilots onto the 787. So this little tidbit is probably as likely as that. Not to mention to certified agreement issues.
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We didn't know. Our connections were focused on the extension of the skilled shortage visa and the quite plausible extension of the lobbying in Canberra to include Qantas 737. Coinciding with that is the project investigating how to address what is developing into a critical shortage on a mainline fleet. Qantas have been seeking advice outside Qantas, indeed outside Australia. Bit hard to see that from down there isn't it?
Funnily enough we actually agree on what’s caused this shortage and that airlines like Qantas (and indeed most of the industry) have both created this issue and not seen it coming.
Australopithecus is on the money. There will be residual slots on the A380/ 744 and A330 fleet as F/Os leave those fleets to take up initial commands on the 737. Those vacancies need to be covered from 737/330 fleets due to the vertical promotion issues. If there is a type freeze on the 737 where are these pilots going to be replaced from? DEFO?
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Well, QF has just updated their NW18-19 schedules for HBA-MEL which show a continuation of 73Hs replacing the 717s (which had previously been for NS18 only), so one would hope there are enough pilots!
Has there been any progress on the 717 issues?
Are there any new rumors on the future of the 717 operation?
Has there been any progress on the 717 issues?
Are there any new rumors on the future of the 717 operation?
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I have to agree that this thread really is bogus. There is no “talk” of this. It wasn’t long ago that “sources inside Qantas” were suggesting that A330 pilots would be frozen, as it’s easier to train 737 pilots onto the 787. So this little tidbit is probably as likely as that. Not to mention to certified agreement issues.
The source in this case has provided timely insights. Andrew David may not be talking openly, we do not purport to know. We do know it has been looked at. Whether Qantas attempt to execute or not is entirely speculative. Certified agreements and other obstacles are indeed present. Such a strategy is relatively high risk.
The question though remains if the shortage grows and becomes more evident (and does as is occurring here and in the USA flow up from regional to mainline carriers) and further Operating Revenue reductions follow, the Qantas board level concern may see a radical 'solution' attempted.
We would suggest watching closely the activity of the regional airlines both group and external and see whether cancellations are becoming less easily hid.
The average age of QF pilots has never been higher, and nature is beginning to take its course.
62 is confirmed.
62 is confirmed.
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Wasn't there once a warning on all Pprune pages about sciolists?
Rated De now has almost 500 posts. He/she has quickly become one of the most active posters in Dunnunda, and specifically in threads about Qantas. I don't claim to have read all or even most of those posts but there are two very common themes amongst those I have read- Qantas needs a new fleet, and Qantas HR is embarking on an undeclared war on its pilots (mostly the 737 pilots).
Leaving the new fleet theme alone, the HR theme has been presented without a scintilla of evidence. In fact, the assertion that started this thread is contrary to the current EBA and Australian law. The Qantas 737 fleet and its pilots are working as hard as possible, training is continuing at maximum and the last report I heard is scheduled to increase to over 20/month next year. To continue Fleet needs maximum support and flexibility of pilots, especially as the short-haul EBA expires. The answer to that need is to start a full-on war? Ask yourself what you would do in management's shoes. Virtually every airline in the world is short of pilots, big money is on offer overseas, and QF HR starts a very public fight that will disillusion all 2,000+ pilots AND require a change in Australian law by a government facing an election next year? That makes no sense. I'll say it because no one else seems to want to (although Keg has hinted at it): Rated De, regarding the topic of this thread, I think you are full of it.
'That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.' (Christopher Hitchens) RIP
Rated De now has almost 500 posts. He/she has quickly become one of the most active posters in Dunnunda, and specifically in threads about Qantas. I don't claim to have read all or even most of those posts but there are two very common themes amongst those I have read- Qantas needs a new fleet, and Qantas HR is embarking on an undeclared war on its pilots (mostly the 737 pilots).
Leaving the new fleet theme alone, the HR theme has been presented without a scintilla of evidence. In fact, the assertion that started this thread is contrary to the current EBA and Australian law. The Qantas 737 fleet and its pilots are working as hard as possible, training is continuing at maximum and the last report I heard is scheduled to increase to over 20/month next year. To continue Fleet needs maximum support and flexibility of pilots, especially as the short-haul EBA expires. The answer to that need is to start a full-on war? Ask yourself what you would do in management's shoes. Virtually every airline in the world is short of pilots, big money is on offer overseas, and QF HR starts a very public fight that will disillusion all 2,000+ pilots AND require a change in Australian law by a government facing an election next year? That makes no sense. I'll say it because no one else seems to want to (although Keg has hinted at it): Rated De, regarding the topic of this thread, I think you are full of it.
'That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.' (Christopher Hitchens) RIP
Last edited by TineeTim; 15th Apr 2018 at 06:41.
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Fly on the wall noticing, today we have domestic cancellations because Jetconnect can’t crew Tasman flights.
Seems putting JC planes on the VH register has lead to Qantas pilots getting more flying not less. Sky isn’t quite falling.
Seems putting JC planes on the VH register has lead to Qantas pilots getting more flying not less. Sky isn’t quite falling.
Nunc est bibendum
Putting JC aircraft on the VH register created an extra 10 mainline commands and F/O slots. Such was the inefficiency of the JC 737 operation. Of course, this exacerbates the shortage of crew on the 737 as the aircraft start to be rostered more efficiently prior to the mainline crew having been trained.
It also forgets the additional 50ish commands and F/O slots should’ve gone to mainline given the need to wind up an operation that was obviously so inefficient. We’ll see what happens over the next few years as JC struggles to attract and retain qualified crew.
It also forgets the additional 50ish commands and F/O slots should’ve gone to mainline given the need to wind up an operation that was obviously so inefficient. We’ll see what happens over the next few years as JC struggles to attract and retain qualified crew.
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To be honest I couldn’t really care about whomever is working in a back office.
It’s not like it’s a Chief Pilot/Deputy or position of critical importance or significance.Its not even a HOFO or a managers role. Regardless of who’s co running it I’d suggest it will be but one finger in a dyke that is the shortage. Not many 457 visa holders interested in the t and c’s on offer at the lower subsidiary’s.
Keg and Rated D both agree on the pilot shortage that is impacting globally. It’s backed up by numbers and facts from Forbes to the Australian and from airline CEOs themselves.
Rather than pontificate on what might happen I’d suggest the time is right to look to improve conditions whilst the timing is perfect. Qantas has turned around now. Billions in profits, bonuses and share price records. The bad days are gone.
Doesn’t get any better than now. SH needs paid reserve and MDC.
The guys and gals deserve no less. Surely we can’t lose both in the doom and the boom.
12 hour day trips with 4 hours of sitting around won’t be tolerated for much longer. As the shortage bites and training at max it will only get worse.
It’s not like it’s a Chief Pilot/Deputy or position of critical importance or significance.Its not even a HOFO or a managers role. Regardless of who’s co running it I’d suggest it will be but one finger in a dyke that is the shortage. Not many 457 visa holders interested in the t and c’s on offer at the lower subsidiary’s.
Keg and Rated D both agree on the pilot shortage that is impacting globally. It’s backed up by numbers and facts from Forbes to the Australian and from airline CEOs themselves.
Rather than pontificate on what might happen I’d suggest the time is right to look to improve conditions whilst the timing is perfect. Qantas has turned around now. Billions in profits, bonuses and share price records. The bad days are gone.
Doesn’t get any better than now. SH needs paid reserve and MDC.
The guys and gals deserve no less. Surely we can’t lose both in the doom and the boom.
12 hour day trips with 4 hours of sitting around won’t be tolerated for much longer. As the shortage bites and training at max it will only get worse.
