Crew travel priority over paying pax?
I think Bandalot would want you to contact the emergency services and ask them for a clearance to evacuate. If they aren't available Terry from dispatch usually answers his phone promptly, failing that Cheryl from the refuellers hut can always be relied upon for a straight answer to any question. Whatever you do, don't go using common sense or someone will think you have a big ego and have usurped their almighty powers and authority.
On a more serious note,
The above is from a US law review document so may be relevant to the United case. Note the use of the word "preflight".
Even though a pilot is deemed to be responsible as pilot in command or second in command, there are still defenses that are recognized by regulation and NTSB case law. Most of these defenses can be characterized as “reasonable reliance” defenses. The question that often needs to be answered in this context is whether the pilot reasonably relied on other crewmembers, air traffic controllers, maintenance personnel, or his or her own observations regarding aircraft performance and airworthiness either preflight or during flight. In other cases, the pilot might be able to establish an emergency authority defense. In these cases it is important to determine if the emergency was created by the pilot’s own actions. If not, was the pilot’s action in response to the emergency prudent and reasonable? In the end, the general rule usually prevails. The buck stops with the pilot in command—almost always.
I think AP who would have you
and Bandalot who thinks the legal responsibility for the disposition of the aircraft and its occupants lies with someone other than the PIC ( someone yet to be named) until the aircraft moves under its own steam are doing the pilots amongst us a favour here by getting us to think about how we consider each delegation of authority while still on the ground....ie if something unusual is happening while at the gate do we need to get out of our seat and actively control the pace and tone of the operation before going back to the nuts and bolts of pre flight procedures ( performance, briefing, flight deck set up etc) because these things will wait.
check with emergency services before ordering an evacuation.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So here I am at a stand off bay at YGAFA where there is no engineer, period, and only a few contract ground handlers when during start we have a tail pipe fire. Hmmmm? We haven't moved yet Band a Lot, so what pray tell do I do next to manage the situation and mitigate against the threat becoming uncontrollable which would obviously endanger all on board? Who is in command in this scenario? I'm now dying to know. Who has legal responsibility at this point?
It can be contained in airport procedures or company manuals and infact it may well be you!
You simply need to know - and you clearly do not as you have not posed any official part of a document - only willy waving statements.
Sorry but the onus is on you to know and to be able to prove it if required, maybe ask the Chief Pilot what or responsibilities prior to aircraft moving under its own power or just guess!
Again please not the only information posted here clearly states what you refuse to believe in relation to PIC. So please correct me with a link or something as I have done for you.
(If you decided to call an evacuation I doubt that would go against you - but that is not the point)
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly, Band a lot is a dick.
I have been in the situation at a SE Asian port where we had a fire warning on engine start.
As it happens it was just a starter failure but I called ATC for immediate fire crew assistance.
After the problem was sorted and we were towed to a remote gate we asked about the fire crew - they never turned up at all!
The Captain has responsiblity once on board but works with others to do what appears correct at the time.
Non pilots on this forum so often get it arse about.
Aerialperspective, in your rude Captain: " let them send the containers on Thai", what was the FOD at the other end? Perhaps they needed the extra fuel more than dead weight "standby cargo".
I have been in the situation at a SE Asian port where we had a fire warning on engine start.
As it happens it was just a starter failure but I called ATC for immediate fire crew assistance.
After the problem was sorted and we were towed to a remote gate we asked about the fire crew - they never turned up at all!
The Captain has responsiblity once on board but works with others to do what appears correct at the time.
Non pilots on this forum so often get it arse about.
Aerialperspective, in your rude Captain: " let them send the containers on Thai", what was the FOD at the other end?
Perhaps they needed the extra fuel more than dead weight "standby cargo".
It's in the non normal Boeing checklist Band a Little. Remember we haven't moved yet. There are no fire services. There is one bloke with a fire extinguisher which would be like pissing into the wind.
(Step 8)
C is for Captain and that would be me and my trusty offsider is the First Officer F/O and his willy is no doubt bigger!
1 PARKING BRAKE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Set C
2 Speedbrake lever . . . . . . . . . . . . DOWN C
3 FLAP lever . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 F/O
4 Pressurization mode selector . . . . . MAN F/O
5 Outflow VALVE
switch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hold in OPEN
until the outflow VALVE
indication shows fully open
to depressurize the airplane F/O
6 If time allows, verify that the flaps are 40
before the engine start levers are moved
to CUTOFF. C
7 Engine start levers (both) . . . . . CUTOFF C
8 Advise the cabin to evacuate. C
9 Advise the tower. F/O
10 Engine and APU
fire switches (all) . . . . Override and pull F/O
11 If an engine or APU fire warning occurs:
Illuminated fire
switch . . . . . . . . . . Rotate to the stop
and hold for 1 second F/O
(Step 8)
C is for Captain and that would be me and my trusty offsider is the First Officer F/O and his willy is no doubt bigger!
1 PARKING BRAKE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Set C
2 Speedbrake lever . . . . . . . . . . . . DOWN C
3 FLAP lever . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 F/O
4 Pressurization mode selector . . . . . MAN F/O
5 Outflow VALVE
switch . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hold in OPEN
until the outflow VALVE
indication shows fully open
to depressurize the airplane F/O
6 If time allows, verify that the flaps are 40
before the engine start levers are moved
to CUTOFF. C
7 Engine start levers (both) . . . . . CUTOFF C
8 Advise the cabin to evacuate. C
9 Advise the tower. F/O
10 Engine and APU
fire switches (all) . . . . Override and pull F/O
11 If an engine or APU fire warning occurs:
Illuminated fire
switch . . . . . . . . . . Rotate to the stop
and hold for 1 second F/O
Last edited by Troo believer; 16th Apr 2017 at 08:46.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Framer yes and I have posted the legal proof of that - the un named person should be listed by local airport rules or company procedures manuals and may well be the PIC.
But for this reason it is not possible for me to say who has authority or I would.
Now the regs cut and pated say a point in time that the PIC has authority, you simply need to know who that it is prior to that time.
Some company's may state it is the base manager or another title, and I very much doubt they will not give support for an emergency evac that you carried out without asking them.
But back more to the point of the offload and other normal routine things that pop up prior to pushback I.A.W the regulator the PIC may not be responsible or have authority.
It is up to the pilot to know who is the responsible person during this time not determined by the regulator.
Simply mate just produce the document as proof the PIC is in authority, it should not be that hard.
P.S Common sense, seniority and ability (the basis of your argument) are not regulations, rules or laws.
But for this reason it is not possible for me to say who has authority or I would.
Now the regs cut and pated say a point in time that the PIC has authority, you simply need to know who that it is prior to that time.
Some company's may state it is the base manager or another title, and I very much doubt they will not give support for an emergency evac that you carried out without asking them.
But back more to the point of the offload and other normal routine things that pop up prior to pushback I.A.W the regulator the PIC may not be responsible or have authority.
It is up to the pilot to know who is the responsible person during this time not determined by the regulator.
Simply mate just produce the document as proof the PIC is in authority, it should not be that hard.
P.S Common sense, seniority and ability (the basis of your argument) are not regulations, rules or laws.
the un named person should be listed by local airport rules
Firstly, Band a lot is a dick.
I have been in the situation at a SE Asian port where we had a fire warning on engine start.
As it happens it was just a starter failure but I called ATC for immediate fire crew assistance.
After the problem was sorted and we were towed to a remote gate we asked about the fire crew - they never turned up at all!
The Captain has responsiblity once on board but works with others to do what appears correct at the time.
Non pilots on this forum so often get it arse about.
Aerialperspective, in your rude Captain: " let them send the containers on Thai", what was the FOD at the other end? Perhaps they needed the extra fuel more than dead weight "standby cargo".
I have been in the situation at a SE Asian port where we had a fire warning on engine start.
As it happens it was just a starter failure but I called ATC for immediate fire crew assistance.
After the problem was sorted and we were towed to a remote gate we asked about the fire crew - they never turned up at all!
The Captain has responsiblity once on board but works with others to do what appears correct at the time.
Non pilots on this forum so often get it arse about.
Aerialperspective, in your rude Captain: " let them send the containers on Thai", what was the FOD at the other end?
Perhaps they needed the extra fuel more than dead weight "standby cargo".What was unacceptable was his arrogant and condescending attitude toward a local, in who's country he was standing. It was not just that but the general bullying he displayed. I don't care about the story behind it, I was not going to stand for this arrogant prick speaking to staff like that. He likely wouldn't have behaved the same way in Sydney because he probably would have been told to watch his mouth. No excuse for his behavior.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Band a lot, do you know how quickly a cabin fire (for example) can spread and become catastrophic? Do you really think we have time to be dicking around waiting for "someone" to decide if the captain can order an evacuation?
The un named person is of course..........
You guessed it!
"Band a Lot"
Next time there is a situation requiring the eminent legal and operational input before taxi call on 121.5
"Band a Lot operations"
Only then can you relax in full knowledge that the superior intellect will keep us all safe.
Thank fcuk for that.
I'm so releived, thirty years what an epiphany.
You guessed it!
"Band a Lot"
Next time there is a situation requiring the eminent legal and operational input before taxi call on 121.5
"Band a Lot operations"
Only then can you relax in full knowledge that the superior intellect will keep us all safe.
Thank fcuk for that.
I'm so releived, thirty years what an epiphany.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So we get a lot of abuse and a Boeing check list, but no legal document of the gap prior to moving under own power as in Australia.
Yes I know a thing or 2 about fire, but as I said away from emergencies can you identify to a Judge that a decision prior to "moving under own power" that you made as a pilot in command that you had/have that legal responsibility?
I am simply asking the question - a judge will demand an answer.
Lets get back to the removed passenger type of example and lets say he actually died from injuries and you have to defend yourself as having the responsibility/authority - can you?
Yes I know a thing or 2 about fire, but as I said away from emergencies can you identify to a Judge that a decision prior to "moving under own power" that you made as a pilot in command that you had/have that legal responsibility?
I am simply asking the question - a judge will demand an answer.
Lets get back to the removed passenger type of example and lets say he actually died from injuries and you have to defend yourself as having the responsibility/authority - can you?
Yes I can and I'm certainly not answerable to you.
You're obviously not a pilot so I don't care how or what you think but you had better hope next time you're on board that the PIC has your back.
You're obviously not a pilot so I don't care how or what you think but you had better hope next time you're on board that the PIC has your back.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funny I get him in the air Troo Believer, so I make sure his butt is safe.
I also know when an aircraft is under my authority and when it is not.
You simply are not answerable to me, as you can not produce the documents to support your position - or you would have!!!! loud and clear like a big watch.
I also know when an aircraft is under my authority and when it is not.
You simply are not answerable to me, as you can not produce the documents to support your position - or you would have!!!! loud and clear like a big watch.
I reckon Band a Lot has a point. If there ever comes a situation where the person "In Command" of a situation is going to jail or losing their job, would you not like to know on which side of the fence you legally sit? Or would you rather wait til someone taps you on the shoulder and says the music has stopped and you don't have a chair. Trust me, everyone else will be ducking and pointing fingers. Does the point at which you assume you are in command, and your company considers you in command differ? Just because you think you are does not mean you are, and just because you think you aren't doesn't mean you aren't.
Which is exactly why United is facing the situation they do now.
You're obviously not a pilot so I don't care how or what you think
Gender Faculty Specialist
Simply put, who else is going make that decision? You?
but no legal document of the gap prior to moving under own power as in Australia.
I am simply asking the question - a judge will demand an answer.
Lets get back to the removed passenger type of example and lets say he actually died from injuries and you have to defend yourself as having the responsibility/authority - can you?
Lets get back to the removed passenger type of example and lets say he actually died from injuries and you have to defend yourself as having the responsibility/authority - can you?
I've looked up the regs and company manuals and there appears to be no reference to answer the question.
I wonder if the proliferation of 'lean operations' requiring Engineers to be working in two places at once has opened up a gap over the last two decades whereby cleaners and caterers have been left to toil away in an aircraft with APU running and nobody 'minding the shop'.
I'm pretty sure that only a licence holder (AME/ATPL) can hold the responsibility so who fills the gap?
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I honestly do not know Chesty Morgan. The more I look it seems a number of people can including Cabin Crew and it seems of the Cabin Crew the PIC is at the top of the food chain and can override all other Cabin Crew.
BUT if a drug and alcohol tester walks on board and wants to test the PIC can he refuse or remove the tester? as he has ultimate authority prior moving under own power.
No he must comply with the request or order to the test, but not once moving under own power (if this tester is on a flight to another port and thinks the captain is pissed). The dispute then can only be followed up after the flight is complete as the captain does indeed have ultimate control.
If there were certain dramas on an aircraft and it required immediate response - yes I would act in the best interests of safety as I have certain knowledge of aircraft and systems. That does not imply I have the legal right to do so.
BUT if a drug and alcohol tester walks on board and wants to test the PIC can he refuse or remove the tester? as he has ultimate authority prior moving under own power.
No he must comply with the request or order to the test, but not once moving under own power (if this tester is on a flight to another port and thinks the captain is pissed). The dispute then can only be followed up after the flight is complete as the captain does indeed have ultimate control.
If there were certain dramas on an aircraft and it required immediate response - yes I would act in the best interests of safety as I have certain knowledge of aircraft and systems. That does not imply I have the legal right to do so.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I reckon Band a Lot has a point. If there ever comes a situation where the person "In Command" of a situation is going to jail or losing their job, would you not like to know on which side of the fence you legally sit? Or would you rather wait til someone taps you on the shoulder and says the music has stopped and you don't have a chair. Trust me, everyone else will be ducking and pointing fingers. Does the point at which you assume you are in command, and your company considers you in command differ? Just because you think you are does not mean you are, and just because you think you aren't doesn't mean you aren't.
Which is exactly why United is facing the situation they do now.
Which is exactly why United is facing the situation they do now.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These are valid questions. I have always assumed responsibility from when I step onboard (unless an Engineer is still working the aircraft) often cabin crew are already onboard and there is not an Engineer in sight.........who is legally responsible for the safety of the cleaners/ cabin crew etc prior to my arrival if no Engineer is about and when do the cleaners/ caterers etc become my legal responsibility?
I've looked up the regs and company manuals and there appears to be no reference to answer the question.
I wonder if the proliferation of 'lean operations' requiring Engineers to be working in two places at once has opened up a gap over the last two decades whereby cleaners and caterers have been left to toil away in an aircraft with APU running and nobody 'minding the shop'.
I'm pretty sure that only a licence holder (AME/ATPL) can hold the responsibility so who fills the gap?
I've looked up the regs and company manuals and there appears to be no reference to answer the question.
I wonder if the proliferation of 'lean operations' requiring Engineers to be working in two places at once has opened up a gap over the last two decades whereby cleaners and caterers have been left to toil away in an aircraft with APU running and nobody 'minding the shop'.
I'm pretty sure that only a licence holder (AME/ATPL) can hold the responsibility so who fills the gap?
A pilot or a LAME if a APU is running from what I can pick out is simply responsible for the safe aircraft operation. Like only running at required distances and limits not the cargo or pax aspect.