Virgin Australia recruitment
Didn’t the majority of the VARA ATR drivers agree to those terms too? And a question for you: on the day you joined VARA, did you know about, and accept the 10% cap, or did you sign on the dotted line before any guarantee of joint seniority?
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I joined Skywest knowing that I could progress onto the f100 or the a320. Now with the way the ATR operation is, I would have to interview and pass a sim to be ‘approved’ to fly a jet with the employer I initially signed with.
Essentially the ATR pilot group is an unwanted/reject pilot group, neither wanted by Skywest or VA. If you do join on the ATR, join knowing that there will be no career progression and that since you ‘only fly a turboprop’ you may never be deemed ‘suitable’ to fly a jet.
Essentially the ATR pilot group is an unwanted/reject pilot group, neither wanted by Skywest or VA. If you do join on the ATR, join knowing that there will be no career progression and that since you ‘only fly a turboprop’ you may never be deemed ‘suitable’ to fly a jet.
The people that joined the Virgin Group 8 years ago as ATR captains actually would have had no expectation of a position on the VAA 737 operation - as when they joined the ATR it was wholly operated by Skywest who at that stage were not owned by Virgin (think Cobham 717 - wear the uniform and fly the aeroplane with the tail painted in ‘mainline’ colours, but are employed by a contract company).
The only reason the ATR got group seniority once Skywest was bought by VA is because of the push by one of the unions (the one that does all the work). The only way the company was going to contemplate a group seniority list including VARA was if they had the 10% cap. Given the small amount of numbers of people on the ATR (and to a lesser extent the number of people in WA on the F100 / 320) this is not necessarily an unreasonable thing. How do you think the ATR operation would have survived if they had pulled 60 pilots from it over the course of 18 months? Quite simply the operation wouldn’t have survived. Some people here really ought to sit back and actually look at the reality of things from time to time rather than just shooting from the hip.
My understanding is that now the current ATR negotiations are going to look at phasing our the cap completely. EBAs are a constant work in progress - your first one saw the ATR guys have the opportunity to fly VAA 737s, albeit with the cap. The second one will see the cap removed.
I think it’s also important to note that Integration will take close to 10 years before it completely settles down and works as one would hope in an ideal world. We’ve had the 777 operation and 737 operation join lists, providing SOs on the V Australia operation the clear path to VA737 (and recently some initial 777 FOs taking VA737 commands). We have then had the VANZ pilots join the list, again giving some Aussies who were in NZ the opportunity to have a clear path to be able to move back to Australia (and again just recently now give some Australians - one who was an initial V Australia SO - take a command at VANZ on the 737), and also over the last two years plenty of ATR pilots move to the VA737 (and I believe some ATR FOs to the F100 and A320) as well as the opportunity for VARA F100 pilots to stay in Perth and move across to 737 mainline. And I also believe in the last bid import we saw a Tiger FO move across to the 777 as an SO.
All of these opportunities and movments cost the Company quite a lot of money in order to provide Pilots a ‘career’ in the Virgin Group. That the Company enforced the cap - to the inconvenience of some ATR pilots - is unfortunate for those people directly affected, but overall in the grand scheme of things, for the greater good - we now have full Integration with VAA (Narrowbody, Widebody, ATR), VANZ, VARA (F100 and A320) and now Tiger.
Virgin is now an airline where you can join as a cadet into the right seat of an ATR (or as direct entry into VANZ, or TT, or as an SO), move to the back seat of a 777 (or take an FO position in NZ or TT), then right seat VAA, then move to Left Seat ATR (or at TT, or in NZ) or perhaps take right seat of a widebody.
Some of those points are well worth remembering before just arbitrarily slagging the union that represents the greatest number of group employees (The one that drove integration). Or the company for that matter!
And some of those points above seem to be conveniently forgotten by some people.
The only reason the ATR got group seniority once Skywest was bought by VA is because of the push by one of the unions (the one that does all the work). The only way the company was going to contemplate a group seniority list including VARA was if they had the 10% cap. Given the small amount of numbers of people on the ATR (and to a lesser extent the number of people in WA on the F100 / 320) this is not necessarily an unreasonable thing. How do you think the ATR operation would have survived if they had pulled 60 pilots from it over the course of 18 months? Quite simply the operation wouldn’t have survived. Some people here really ought to sit back and actually look at the reality of things from time to time rather than just shooting from the hip.
My understanding is that now the current ATR negotiations are going to look at phasing our the cap completely. EBAs are a constant work in progress - your first one saw the ATR guys have the opportunity to fly VAA 737s, albeit with the cap. The second one will see the cap removed.
I think it’s also important to note that Integration will take close to 10 years before it completely settles down and works as one would hope in an ideal world. We’ve had the 777 operation and 737 operation join lists, providing SOs on the V Australia operation the clear path to VA737 (and recently some initial 777 FOs taking VA737 commands). We have then had the VANZ pilots join the list, again giving some Aussies who were in NZ the opportunity to have a clear path to be able to move back to Australia (and again just recently now give some Australians - one who was an initial V Australia SO - take a command at VANZ on the 737), and also over the last two years plenty of ATR pilots move to the VA737 (and I believe some ATR FOs to the F100 and A320) as well as the opportunity for VARA F100 pilots to stay in Perth and move across to 737 mainline. And I also believe in the last bid import we saw a Tiger FO move across to the 777 as an SO.
All of these opportunities and movments cost the Company quite a lot of money in order to provide Pilots a ‘career’ in the Virgin Group. That the Company enforced the cap - to the inconvenience of some ATR pilots - is unfortunate for those people directly affected, but overall in the grand scheme of things, for the greater good - we now have full Integration with VAA (Narrowbody, Widebody, ATR), VANZ, VARA (F100 and A320) and now Tiger.
Virgin is now an airline where you can join as a cadet into the right seat of an ATR (or as direct entry into VANZ, or TT, or as an SO), move to the back seat of a 777 (or take an FO position in NZ or TT), then right seat VAA, then move to Left Seat ATR (or at TT, or in NZ) or perhaps take right seat of a widebody.
Some of those points are well worth remembering before just arbitrarily slagging the union that represents the greatest number of group employees (The one that drove integration). Or the company for that matter!
And some of those points above seem to be conveniently forgotten by some people.
Yes, you can go anywhere your Group date of joining position will take you. ATR has a cap as explained above and I think the 777 has a requirement for a narrow body command before taking a 777 command. Both widebody command and FO positions are very senior (mainly captains).
You can most certainly go from VA 73 FO to TT Command. In fact it looks as though that may happen in the near future given that their is only about 15 TT FOs before the rest of the VA pilots will have access to command (like what happened with VANZ).
My understanding is also that you do not require NB command to be eligible for WB Command. This was changed in Experience Requirements about 18 months ago. But Bereal is spot on - WB commands are going very very senior (first two pages of GDOJ list) and WB FO positions are going very senior too (a 1000 staff number 73 Capt recently took 330 FO). Also rumour is that the next WB FO positions will all go to 73 captains as a lot are looking at a better lifestyle.
The ATR CAP still looks to be phased out in the next EBA.
My understanding is also that you do not require NB command to be eligible for WB Command. This was changed in Experience Requirements about 18 months ago. But Bereal is spot on - WB commands are going very very senior (first two pages of GDOJ list) and WB FO positions are going very senior too (a 1000 staff number 73 Capt recently took 330 FO). Also rumour is that the next WB FO positions will all go to 73 captains as a lot are looking at a better lifestyle.
The ATR CAP still looks to be phased out in the next EBA.
WI believe this is theoretically allowed for; however the most senior TT guys on the VA date of joining list are about 500 positions below the most junior A330 FO’s so might be a bit of a wait; regardless of mentioned experience.
There are a few still there from 07 but not many.
I joined Skywest knowing that I could progress onto the f100 or the a320. Now with the way the ATR operation is, I would have to interview and pass a sim to be ‘approved’ to fly a jet with the employer I initially signed with.
Essentially the ATR pilot group is an unwanted/reject pilot group, neither wanted by Skywest or VA. If you do join on the ATR, join knowing that there will be no career progression and that since you ‘only fly a turboprop’ you may never be deemed ‘suitable’ to fly a jet.
Essentially the ATR pilot group is an unwanted/reject pilot group, neither wanted by Skywest or VA. If you do join on the ATR, join knowing that there will be no career progression and that since you ‘only fly a turboprop’ you may never be deemed ‘suitable’ to fly a jet.
Random22
According to this post you claim to have joined Skywest. However, in your previous post you were claiming entitlements because you had worked for the “VA group for 8+ years”. So which airline did you actually interview for and accept a position with? If it’s Skywest just remember that you’re part of the group by default (Virgin buys Skywest and now you’re on the list). Most VA737 drivers around you actually targeted VA mainline and got in. They’re on the list because they intended to be and not by default. So decide which one it is. Did you join Skywest or Virgin?
Re-read your post skyhook. What they said was technically correct - they didn’t say they are working for VA for 8 years - they worked in the VA GROUP for 8 years. There is a difference.
Good to see there is still animosity out there towards ATR pilots.....🙄
Good to see there is still animosity out there towards ATR pilots.....🙄
Forget widebody Fo slots, those are taken by people that have been around for 15 or more years. It was very junior at the start (recall an email encouraging senior guys to apply) and was juniorish before the last eba vote. The increases to salary and conditions combined with the lower tax bracket make it attractive to captains. Besides, MEL-HKG with three rounds of business catering and cappuccinos is better than 4 sectors between Ballina Syd and Coffs. The longer it goes the more senior it gets. The guys I know that fly it love it complaining only they don’t feel current as they don’t fly much.
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Random22
According to this post you claim to have joined Skywest. However, in your previous post you were claiming entitlements because you had worked for the “VA group for 8+ years”. So which airline did you actually interview for and accept a position with? If it’s Skywest just remember that you’re part of the group by default (Virgin buys Skywest and now you’re on the list). Most VA737 drivers around you actually targeted VA mainline and got in. They’re on the list because they intended to be and not by default. So decide which one it is. Did you join Skywest or Virgin?
Again - avoid the ATR at all costs. You’re much better off starting on the 777 as an SO. At least you’re guaranteed progression after 30 months, not 10 years.
It doesn’t matter if it’s VA or VA group. Skywest was never part the group when most ATR Pilots joined. Nor were they to be on the group seniority list (at the time of joining). The acquisition and joint seniority all happened by default. In contrast, many pilots on the 737 joined VA or the VA group intentionally (they didn’t end up on the list out of sheer luck). Now they have to listen to ATR pilots above them complain all the time because they didn’t get the icing on the cake that was made for them.
As for animosity... As long as they keep complaining it will be there. They have been blessed with their position on the list. “Do your time and be thankful with what you have”.
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The only reason the ATR got group seniority once Skywest was bought by VA is because of the push by one of the unions (the one that does all the work).
Some of those points are well worth remembering before just arbitrarily slagging the union that represents the greatest number of group employees (The one that drove integration).
If there was no MBF, I'm not sure it would be ethics or competence attracting members.
I’m not sure what untruths you’re talking about - VARA (Skywest) can thank the AFAP for Integration. Had that not occurred - what do you think would have happened to the F50 pilots or all of the ATR pilots when they got rid of half their fleet. All of those people still have jobs because of the way Integration allowed for the transfer of pilot in an orderly and fair process throughout the group.
Integration is hardly a wedge - that’s a very simplistic naïve view of how things have worked out.
The fact that the CAP was introduced to get Integration past the Company in the first place was not an unreasonable thing to do. Again - the EBA currently being negotiated has the CAP phased out over the life of the agreement.
There are situations where ATR pilots have been held back because of the CAP and had junior pilots awarded positions ahead of them, however seniority dictates that you will still hold a jet command before these people. I feel for people who had the CAP enforced, that would be a very frustrating thing o go through, but Integration is for the greater good of the entire VA group of pilots, as clearly evidenced by the amount of ATR pilots who are SOs or 73FOs and the amount of F100 pilots who have transferred to 73 PH positions.
And to the poster above complaining about having to do sim assessments and an interview to go to the jet - whilst not ideal, you are still afforded the opportunity to be awarded the position due to Integration. Effectively before 73 FOs are awarded a command they have to do an interview now, and their previous 24 months of sim scores are scrutinised. Seniority doesn’t just give you a go because your number is up - it’s not unreasonable to suggest that you have to reach a minimum standard before the company invests over $40k worth of training in you.
Integration is hardly a wedge - that’s a very simplistic naïve view of how things have worked out.
The fact that the CAP was introduced to get Integration past the Company in the first place was not an unreasonable thing to do. Again - the EBA currently being negotiated has the CAP phased out over the life of the agreement.
There are situations where ATR pilots have been held back because of the CAP and had junior pilots awarded positions ahead of them, however seniority dictates that you will still hold a jet command before these people. I feel for people who had the CAP enforced, that would be a very frustrating thing o go through, but Integration is for the greater good of the entire VA group of pilots, as clearly evidenced by the amount of ATR pilots who are SOs or 73FOs and the amount of F100 pilots who have transferred to 73 PH positions.
And to the poster above complaining about having to do sim assessments and an interview to go to the jet - whilst not ideal, you are still afforded the opportunity to be awarded the position due to Integration. Effectively before 73 FOs are awarded a command they have to do an interview now, and their previous 24 months of sim scores are scrutinised. Seniority doesn’t just give you a go because your number is up - it’s not unreasonable to suggest that you have to reach a minimum standard before the company invests over $40k worth of training in you.
minimum standard before the company invests over $40k worth of training in you.