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Qantas non-stop PER to LHR?

Old 15th Nov 2016, 06:15
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The West, 15 Nov 16:

"Airport row risks London flights

Perth risks losing a revolutionary non-stop air service from Perth to London because of a commercial impasse between Qantas and Perth Airport over a $25 million upgrade to Qantas facilities.

Qantas will take delivery of its first Boeing 787 late next year. The long-range jet is capable of flying non-stop from Perth to London in about 17 1/2 hours.

Qantas wants to consolidate its operations at the domestic terminal on the western side of the airport’s runways at terminals three and four.

With a groundbreaking new aircraft, the airline refuses to bus passengers across the tarmac. It wants efficient connections to the rest of its national network to make the service work and to beat similar connections through Singapore or Dubai.

It is understood the airline has lobbied Transport Minister Bill Marmion.

Premier and Tourism Minster Colin Barnett, who has called the direct London service a “game changer” for the WA economy, is also being kept informed of the dispute.

There are no customs and international arrival/departure facilities at T3 and T4. Qantas believes it would cost up to $25 million to upgrade its facilities.

Senior Perth Airport management claim the cost will be closer to $45 million and are said not to be keen on the proposal because the expense cannot be justified for a daily flight of 236 passengers.

Insiders believe the Qantas cost estimate is more accurate and opposition to the spending ignores the wider benefits to the WA economy. Qantas sources believe the route could grow to a twice-daily service and expand to European capitals such as Paris, Frankfurt or Rome.

Perth Airport would prefer that Qantas consolidate its operations on the international side of the airport, but that development, and a required third runway, could take eight to 10 years.

A senior Qantas spokesman said: “The Perth to London route is the first step in creating a western hub in Perth that could link Australia to several cities in Europe, non-stop.

“The potential for tourism and jobs and economic growth from that is huge.

“We’ve had candid discussions with Perth Airport about what this needs to look like to be successful. It’s critical that we can put domestic and international operations under one roof.

“We appreciate this isn’t the airport’s first preference but we think the benefits for all involved are tremendous.”

Perth Airport chief executive Kevin Brown said the airport was “fully supportive” of the proposed non-stop flights and was working with Qantas “to understand its proposed operating model”.

“This is an exciting opportunity and Perth Airport is keen to ensure that the opportunities afforded by this proposal are realised, and that the significant investments already made or proposed to be made at Perth Airport support the long-term sustainability of the service,” he said.

Mr Barnett said it was “a commercial matter” between Qantas and Perth Airport and negotiations were ongoing. “The State Government wants Perth to become the western gateway into Australia with non-stop Qantas flights between Europe and Western Australia,” he said.

“I am aware that part of the negotiations between Qantas and Perth Airport are centred around whether the gateway service will be located at the international or domestic terminals.”
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 06:38
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
The West, 15 Nov 16:

"Airport row risks London flights

Perth risks losing a revolutionary non-stop air service from Perth to London because of a commercial impasse between Qantas and Perth Airport over a $25 million upgrade to Qantas facilities.

Qantas will take delivery of its first Boeing 787 late next year. The long-range jet is capable of flying non-stop from Perth to London in about 17 1/2 hours.

Qantas wants to consolidate its operations at the domestic terminal on the western side of the airport’s runways at terminals three and four.

With a groundbreaking new aircraft, the airline refuses to bus passengers across the tarmac. It wants efficient connections to the rest of its national network to make the service work and to beat similar connections through Singapore or Dubai.

It is understood the airline has lobbied Transport Minister Bill Marmion.

Premier and Tourism Minster Colin Barnett, who has called the direct London service a “game changer” for the WA economy, is also being kept informed of the dispute.

There are no customs and international arrival/departure facilities at T3 and T4. Qantas believes it would cost up to $25 million to upgrade its facilities.

Senior Perth Airport management claim the cost will be closer to $45 million and are said not to be keen on the proposal because the expense cannot be justified for a daily flight of 236 passengers.

Insiders believe the Qantas cost estimate is more accurate and opposition to the spending ignores the wider benefits to the WA economy. Qantas sources believe the route could grow to a twice-daily service and expand to European capitals such as Paris, Frankfurt or Rome.

Perth Airport would prefer that Qantas consolidate its operations on the international side of the airport, but that development, and a required third runway, could take eight to 10 years.

A senior Qantas spokesman said: “The Perth to London route is the first step in creating a western hub in Perth that could link Australia to several cities in Europe, non-stop.

“The potential for tourism and jobs and economic growth from that is huge.

“We’ve had candid discussions with Perth Airport about what this needs to look like to be successful. It’s critical that we can put domestic and international operations under one roof.

“We appreciate this isn’t the airport’s first preference but we think the benefits for all involved are tremendous.”

Perth Airport chief executive Kevin Brown said the airport was “fully supportive” of the proposed non-stop flights and was working with Qantas “to understand its proposed operating model”.

“This is an exciting opportunity and Perth Airport is keen to ensure that the opportunities afforded by this proposal are realised, and that the significant investments already made or proposed to be made at Perth Airport support the long-term sustainability of the service,” he said.

Mr Barnett said it was “a commercial matter” between Qantas and Perth Airport and negotiations were ongoing. “The State Government wants Perth to become the western gateway into Australia with non-stop Qantas flights between Europe and Western Australia,” he said.

“I am aware that part of the negotiations between Qantas and Perth Airport are centred around whether the gateway service will be located at the international or domestic terminals.”
Standard Perth.
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 06:59
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"Qantas sources believe the route could grow to a twice-daily service and expand to European capitals such as Paris, Frankfurt or Rome."


Senior Perth Airport management claim the cost will be closer to $45 million and are said not to be keen on the proposal because the expense cannot be justified for a daily flight of 236 passengers.


It is a bit rich for Qantas having claimed 'terminality' and then 'transformation' which was nothing more than a fleet impairment and oil price reduction to want upwards of $25 million concessions when it long ago surrendered any semblance of a national airline.

Don't quite know how Alan intends servicing Rome, Paris and Frankfurt with 8 aircraft...

Once again Qantas is full of 'coulds' and 'may' and this time someone called BS on their PR.

Last edited by Tuck Mach; 15th Nov 2016 at 07:00. Reason: typo!
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 07:04
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Don't quite know how Alan intends servicing Rome, Paris and Frankfurt with 8 aircraft
They'll be getting more than 8 aircraft.
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 07:08
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Yes every rumour mill repeats it, but the first one is over a year away.

If there are more than eight aircraft then they will have no trouble committing contractually to give Perth airport certainty committing the capital required. Sadly rumour and 'could' isn't factual it is hearsay and Perth airport rightly called it.

As to the more aircraft you may want to have a close look at their gearing and off balance sheet debt before listening to rumours.
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 07:38
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No, Perth Airport just don't want to pay for a temporary customs and quarantine area to be installed over at Terminal 3/4.
Don't forget they've suffered a loss of traffic and passengers through the airport themselves with the drawdown in FIFO flying, and something like this would help boost passenger numbers, the airport's profile and their revenue a far greater amount than the funding that would be required.
Did VA contribute much toward that shiny new terminal they are now using?
Or maybe the state government will chip in, Barnett's government is facing a loss in next years election and this would be a coup if they could get it over the line. It'd be a lot less than they are spending on the new stadium anyway.
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 08:12
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$25 million...

Spread over say, 10 years, I might add. A pittance for what the Perth Airport "Senior Management' would see returned thanks to potential Growth to services ex Perth. Just think of return on all that extra Shop rental and Carparking revenue if 1 787 (and all the other current QF group international stuff), became 3 or 4 or 5 per day to different destinations.

I'd really say Perth Airport management are playing hard ball, as they'd be looking for QF and the State Government to throw their hands up and cough up a larger chunk of the funding.

$25 or even $50 Million is alot cheaper than building a whole new pier (along with Tarmac expansion, etc) over at the International would be. Not to mention that'd take 10years anyway.
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 11:37
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Now just my recent experience....

From On Eyre....

It might work for dedicated QF patrons from ADL. Currently have to backtrack to SYD or MEL which adds a leg and elapsed time ADL to LHR. Interestingly one of the shortest elapsed time ADL to LHR is with CX via Hong Kong (and prices aren't bad either).

From an SLF point of view on this particular (or similar) leg...

Thumbing through a QF mag the other day, I was reminded of how I should dress and behave in their moderate Islamic country....yet we go out of our way to accommodate their (or every other cultures) every whim...

I'm sure Dubai is Disneyland on Steroids.....and I am sensitive to other cultures nuances.....but care not to be dictated to how to behave when the national carrier has a beneficial (cough!) agreement to operate through Dubai....least of all I dislike their use of slave labour to build their 'Towers of Babel'

So, you know what? I codeshare with FINNAIR (QF51) now through SIN....I get a day or so in SIN, get ready, long one up to HEL, and from there anywhere in Europe.....

We love Hong Kong..(not to live!)..but always a ton of fun to come home by....again FINNAIR CX codeshare back to BNE....

Works for us because - I like to rest in SE Asia before flying home! I don't want the long east - west part to be through the ME. Home via HKG (or even SIN) works a whole lot better for me (us), timezone thing!

And that A350 is a real pleasure to travel on!! (From someone who has always favoured Boeing!)
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 11:53
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oops, forgot add that (all from a Y class point of view at least..)..if CX are going to go 3/4/3 on their 777 long haul fleet....that is very noticeable diff if hopping off a 3/3/3 A330..... see ya CX! Brand gone!
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 11:58
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I am not a fan of PAPL given the way they drag their heels on every dollar spent and are still holding out on the parallel runway to 03/21 however to me this smacks of Q trying to bully PAPL and the Australian government once again, more CIQ staff would be required to suit Q commercial operations.

Hello, the international terminal is just that, go there, the domestic phase out on "Airport West" is in the master plan.

When all is said and done Q have not announced they intend to fly this route, all that AJ has said is that the aircraft is capable, this smells like smoke and mirrors.

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says 787-9 configured for ultra long-haul | Australian Aviation

Edit to add: Just like the rest of our capital city airports. If you fly Cairns - Brisbane or Newcastle - Sydney you would expect to change terminals, partly due to CIQ.

The $25-45 million would be better spent on a fast connection road (one exists) or a monorail link.
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 12:53
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Agree with Icarus, and I think this will be the compromise.

Nice airside luxury coach transfer (rather than ex public transport busses) with a nice comfortable departure lounge in T3 (rather than bus stop on street), Perhaps $5mil to set up. QF international checkin at T3 as well for Perth originators. There is no way duty free stores or other shops/cafes are going to set up in T3 for just a few flights per day, it's a ghost town as it is and most existing shops have gone bust since Virgin left.
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Old 15th Nov 2016, 19:03
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Icarus2001

'When all is said and done Q have not announced they intend to fly this route, all that AJ has said is that the aircraft is capable, this smells like smoke and mirrors.'

That is precisely my point. T Shirt wearing Todd and Alan are all about spin and less about substance. There is a 'could' there in the Qantas statement, not a 'will'. Perth Airport is right to call BS on Qantas spin...

For the record am certainly no fan of monopoly private assets. Selling them to private interests is treasonous and certainly not national interest. Even Rod Simms at the ACCC, another regulatory paper tiger (doing nothing for years) is questioning the value of privatisation...Bit late now Rod.
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 00:46
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Barnett weighs in on Qantas, airport stoush

By Gareth Parker and Geoffrey Thomas - The West Australian on November 16, 2016, 6:32 am

Premier and Tourism Minister Colin Barnett says he can “live with” Qantas operating a direct flight to London out of its Perth Airport domestic terminal.

But he wants the airline to guarantee it will move to the eastern, international side of the airport within five years.

Mr Barnett said the Government’s main objective was to secure the direct service to London, which Qantas wants to offer on its new generation of Boeing Dreamliner 787 aircraft, the first of which is to be delivered next year.

Qantas wants to operate the service from under one roof in Perth at its existing terminals at T3 and T4 but it would require a $25 million upgrade because there are no Customs facilities.

It is understood Perth Airport does not support spending the money on the upgrade because it has a longer term vision of building a new terminal at its international site.

If the issue cannot be resolved, the direct service from Perth to London may be lost, with Qantas set to deploy its first crop of 787s elsewhere. “Our major objective is to see the direct service to Europe, principally London, is based out of Perth,” Mr Barnett said, adding that he understood Qantas’ dilemma.

“I am seeking an assurance from Qantas that they will within a reasonable period of time — say less than five years — move across to T1, the international terminal.

“The long-term planning for Perth Airport is about all international and domestic flights going through that terminal and that’s part of the reason we’re building an underground rail line to service that terminal.”

Mr Barnett ruled out any capital contribution from the State Government towards a terminal upgrade, saying $2 billion was already being spent on the railway line.

There could be an obstacle in that a new terminal on the international side may not be able to operate without a third runway, pushing the time frame out to eight to 10 years.

Shadow tourism minister Paul Papalia said Mr Barnett needed to get involved in discussions to ensure WA did not miss out on the new route — as it had when Qantas flagged direct flights to Tokyo, which ended up operating from Brisbane.

“As a Premier you have a fair amount of weight,” he said. “Call in the CEOs and have a chat.”


Dispute must not ground new London flight
Gareth Parker Comment:

The management of Perth Airport has worked hard to shed its well-earned punchline reputation in the past several years, with a sustained program of upgrades that has transformed the city’s gateway to the world into something that actually works pretty well.

Anyone who flies out of the new Virgin pier enjoys a seamless experience, and the growing pains of construction on the Qantas domestic and international sides have mostly been worth the wait.

So it would be a dreadful shame if a commercial dispute between Perth Airport and Qantas cost us a direct flight to London.

Yes, the estimated $25 million cost of upgrading Qantas’ terminal on the domestic side is a lot of money — especially for one flight a day and especially when the long-term vision is to shift the Flying Kangaroo from its current digs to the T1/T2 side.

But the daily service would be just the beginning and would put Perth and WA on the radar of European tourism, a huge boon in an economy that is searching for its next wave of jobs.

Qantas should not expect a financial free kick but nor can Perth Airport, a monopoly, place the short-term interests of its institutional shareholders over the broader interests of the community it serves.
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 01:11
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"Qantas should not expect a financial free kick but nor can Perth Airport, a monopoly, place the short-term interests of its institutional shareholders over the broader interests of the community it serves. 15th Nov 2016 20:03"

Mr. Parker might want to check the shareholder register for both entities. Shareholder wealth maximisation and sweating monopoly assets is the bread and butter of a privatisation program. In this country it is an art form that 'socialises losses and privatises the profits', oftentimes to shareholders offshore..

Our elected politicians have sold this crap to the electorates and the Australian public bought it..
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 03:10
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If Perth Airport doesn't come to the party, Qantas may look at Darwin as an alternative. Darwin is closer to Northern Europe destinations than Perth by about 400NM (Southern Europe are almost identical distances). Obviously Perth has some commercial advantages over Darwin but if Perth Airport doesn't want to stump up the money, they could lose the business.
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 04:14
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Originally Posted by Going Boeing
If Perth Airport doesn't come to the party, Qantas may look at Darwin as an alternative. Darwin is closer to Northern Europe destinations than Perth by about 400NM (Southern Europe are almost identical distances). Obviously Perth has some commercial advantages over Darwin but if Perth Airport doesn't want to stump up the money, they could lose the business.
And Darwin has an alternate not far away, one of Perths issues.
Still Perth as you say is commercially advantageous, although Darwin may be as attractive for inbound tourists as first stop.
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 05:13
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Darwin also doesn't have Perths 120 000 UK expats living there, nor a population of 2 million plus to help provide an economic foundation for the services, which I believe will primarily focus on traffic out of Perth, Adelaide, and Southwest and Regional WA. Traffic from elsewhere is obviously important, but with more choice and more convenient/cheaper connections through Asia or the Middle East, you wouldn't want to rely on it.

As far as alternates, there are plenty of 45m wide, 2km or longer runways that are reasonably close with adequate facilities and parking; Kalgoorlie, Geraldton (if not already wouldn't need much of an upgrade), Pearce (if its not Weather related), possibly Busselton in the near future depending what they do with the soon to be commenced widening and lengthening - then of course Adelaide, Learmonth, Port Hedland (and maybe even Karratha - parking dependant) if it comes to that. The Cat 3 system should be operational soon enough anyway, which will vastly reduce and minimise (not eliminate as some believe) the days where many alternates might need to be carried.

If Perth Airport wants these services to operate from the International side, and if the State Government says that regardless they should move there within 5 years or so, then stump up the cash and get on with constructing Qantas a domestic terminal over there. Bring forward the terminal consolidation plans. Otherwise, the $25 (odd) million gives you 10 years to take your time, and it gives the Qantas Group its own terminal space, both International and Domestic, to do what it needs to do do grow in the mean time.

Virgins new terminal took around 3 years, and cost $212 million dollars. So if they got cracking on it now, factoring in the usual delays and faffing around with various silly business lobby/govt/environment groups etc, that we deal with in this country, you could have it done in around the same timeframe. I'd reckon Qantas wouldn't be ready to commence these services much sooner than that anyway, given the delivery schedule of the aircraft, and that they are probably going to need more than 8 to do everything thats currently rumoured.
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 05:28
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there are plenty of 45m wide, 2km or longer runways that are reasonably close with adequate facilities and parking; Kalgoorlie,
KGI has just removed the "A332" from the parking bay details in Jepp...
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 06:42
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Kal aint that close and has very poor facilities for intl alt purposes. Good wx option though.
Even when perth is cat3 or whatever is planned a wx alt will still be needed if you wanna use it.
Kals shortcomings are less relevant once cat3 makes it more likely to get in for fog.
Perths wx issues have some depth, however...
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Old 16th Nov 2016, 07:17
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I flew to Perth last month, and the Virgin terminal is most certainly odd layout. Also if you look at Perth airports track record with building infrastructure it is always more than 1 year late. Clearly Perth airport are a bunch of idiots, and I am sure the road infrastructure will not cope in and out of once place. Look at Sydney and Melbourne. It is a nightmare.
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