Qantas non-stop PER to LHR?
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Maybe so. But if QF play this smart you should be able to walk straight from your domestic flight through customs and be boarding within 30 minutes. You don't need 3kms of shops full of stuff you can't afford if it's a short connection. Dubai is built around 2 hour+ connections.
That will depend on which city you are coming from. HKG would actually be the best option but then it will depend on the connect time.
Also Eastbound in the winter with some of the huge Jetstreams around it could almost be quicker through Perth.
QF have said they are configuring their 787's for extra long haul flying. It will be interesting to see what kind of seat pitch they put into economy however the transfer back into domestic economy on the inbound leg might be a bit painful.
Also Eastbound in the winter with some of the huge Jetstreams around it could almost be quicker through Perth.
They'd want to pick up their game dramatically, its more than just transit times that count, both Emirates and SIA's A380's to LHR from Sydney have more legroom and wifi.
I believe Q are simply running the idea to grab headlines and media coverage.
I also believe that IF they did operate these flights, they would be mostly business class.
Like this...
World's longest haul flight coming to an end
I also believe that IF they did operate these flights, they would be mostly business class.
Like this...
World's longest haul flight coming to an end
It might work for dedicated QF patrons from ADL. Currently have to backtrack to SYD or MEL which adds a leg and elapsed time ADL to LHR. Interestingly one of the shortest elapsed time ADL to LHR is with CX via Hong Kong (and prices aren't bad either).
Originally Posted by Angle Of Attack
The simple fact is it would still be a one stop service to London from anywhere but Perth, and would save zero time compared to any other airline transiting through their various hubs.
The simple fact is it would still be a one stop service to London from anywhere but Perth, and would save zero time compared to any other airline transiting through their various hubs.
Won't work, plain and simple. Still wouldn't be any quicker from the east coast of oz to London.
QF would know exactly how many of their codeshare pax on the two Emirates A380s that head PER-DUB each day are going on to the UK and this should give them a good sense of the demand.
Qantas is marketing this as if they are world leaders at the cutting edge of the B787. There are already 400 plus 787's operating quite successfully without the learned input of these dinosaurs. By the time they actually get their new toy there will be hundreds more circling the globe. Get over it.
Nunc est bibendum
My money is on the QF9 becoming a 787 service doing MEL- PER- LHR. A380 to come off MEL-DXB- LHR and perhaps do just MEL-DXB and connecting with the QF1 for those that want to do LHR that way or otherwise connect into the EK codeshares going elsewhere in Europe.
That frees up 1 A380 if they continue to fly MEL- DXB or 2 A380s if they no longer fly MEL- DXB at all. That A380 I reckon goes onto SYD- HKG. That frees up a 744 to either be retired or to fly MEL- HKG. If the 744 goes onto MEL-HKG that would then free up an A330 to go elsewhere into Asia. Seoul? Taipei? I reckon we'll be into Beijing prior to that but that's an option too.
Interesting times.
That frees up 1 A380 if they continue to fly MEL- DXB or 2 A380s if they no longer fly MEL- DXB at all. That A380 I reckon goes onto SYD- HKG. That frees up a 744 to either be retired or to fly MEL- HKG. If the 744 goes onto MEL-HKG that would then free up an A330 to go elsewhere into Asia. Seoul? Taipei? I reckon we'll be into Beijing prior to that but that's an option too.
Interesting times.
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LostProperty, in an early post on this thread, had suggested that the news item in the West Australian (in which the Premier is extensively quoted)
might be a ploy by the embattled Barnett government to curry some favour prior to the upcoming election.
Then Icarus2001, in his post above, says, "I believe Q are simply running the idea to grab headlines and media coverage."
This prompted me to have a look at that article again.
Well, blow me down, guess whose by-line is at the top of the page?
That's right, ladies and gentlemen ... Australia's most objective journalist and "aviation professional" .. Geoffrey Thomas!
I think I need say no more.
might be a ploy by the embattled Barnett government to curry some favour prior to the upcoming election.
Then Icarus2001, in his post above, says, "I believe Q are simply running the idea to grab headlines and media coverage."
This prompted me to have a look at that article again.
Well, blow me down, guess whose by-line is at the top of the page?
That's right, ladies and gentlemen ... Australia's most objective journalist and "aviation professional" .. Geoffrey Thomas!
I think I need say no more.
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Ahh, yes, that would be the same Geoffrey Thomas who assured us some years ago that it would be VIRGIN who would fly PER - LHR with their 777's.
This has to be one of the most talked about routes that has never eventuated. I think it could work with an aircraft like the 787-9 decked out for it, and I think that if QF used the 787 to re-establish routes to SIN, HKG and NRT again, it would give QF a reasonable body of international flying out of Perth to make it a viable option. In the 'good ol days' we have three flights to SIN a day (one of which was a 747), and four flights a week to HKG and three or four to NRT. Now QF runs a solitary 737 to SIN.
Making part of the old Virgin terminal an international gateway for one flight a day to LHR, does not make a lot of sense. The market is probably there for a 787 sized aircraft, but it would have to be daily, and it would have to attract enough people willing to fly 17 and a bit hours (+ diversion time if req'd). Personally having done SYD-YVR a couple of times, I can't think of a more horrible travel experience than 17-18 hours in any aircraft. Yes the 787 is a notably more comfortable aircraft to fly in, but not for this long.
This has to be one of the most talked about routes that has never eventuated. I think it could work with an aircraft like the 787-9 decked out for it, and I think that if QF used the 787 to re-establish routes to SIN, HKG and NRT again, it would give QF a reasonable body of international flying out of Perth to make it a viable option. In the 'good ol days' we have three flights to SIN a day (one of which was a 747), and four flights a week to HKG and three or four to NRT. Now QF runs a solitary 737 to SIN.
Making part of the old Virgin terminal an international gateway for one flight a day to LHR, does not make a lot of sense. The market is probably there for a 787 sized aircraft, but it would have to be daily, and it would have to attract enough people willing to fly 17 and a bit hours (+ diversion time if req'd). Personally having done SYD-YVR a couple of times, I can't think of a more horrible travel experience than 17-18 hours in any aircraft. Yes the 787 is a notably more comfortable aircraft to fly in, but not for this long.
When one highlights the journalistic integrity of GT then states
Fact check. Wrong.
QF runs a solitary 737 to SIN.
Fact check. Wrong.
Those listing preferable options for getting from SYD/MEL/BNE to LHR are missing the point. As Roo said, think of the entire country west of (and including) Adelaide.
QF can offer one stop flights on its own metal to London from a vast array of smaller markets. Plus direct flights to/from Perth which makes WA a more appealing destination for inbound passengers.
Plus they only need to sell ~250 tickets to fill the flight. Should certainly be possible to make it a daily service across that large market catchment.
The flight will most likely originate in MEL/SYD/BNE so will want to use the domestic terminal so they can sell all the seats on the originating leg to domestic pax with domestic connections. They will not want to have to tow it across runways to the international terminal as this wastes a lot of time/causes delays which would reduce airframe utilisation.
QF can offer one stop flights on its own metal to London from a vast array of smaller markets. Plus direct flights to/from Perth which makes WA a more appealing destination for inbound passengers.
Plus they only need to sell ~250 tickets to fill the flight. Should certainly be possible to make it a daily service across that large market catchment.
The flight will most likely originate in MEL/SYD/BNE so will want to use the domestic terminal so they can sell all the seats on the originating leg to domestic pax with domestic connections. They will not want to have to tow it across runways to the international terminal as this wastes a lot of time/causes delays which would reduce airframe utilisation.
Nunc est bibendum
The desire to have all Oneworld arrivals and departures from Terminal 3 and 4 in PER has been a long stated desire. It may even be part of the long term operating plan for PER? Not sure if terminal 3 can take an A380 though from the likes of EK so maybe it'll just be QF international departures.
QF can offer one stop flights on its own metal to London from a vast array of smaller markets
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Can the 787 do london sydney no stop on the eastbound leg?
I recall reading that QF surveyed some frequent travellers on wether they would pay a premium for a non stop service to or from London, and they all said that a return non stop service was their preffered option.
So if the 787 could operate non stop from london to sydney, it may well be full ex Sydney, with connecting passengers from brisbane melbourne, and merely transit in Perth.
Such a service would be unique in not stopping anywere enroute except Perth.
I recall reading that QF surveyed some frequent travellers on wether they would pay a premium for a non stop service to or from London, and they all said that a return non stop service was their preffered option.
So if the 787 could operate non stop from london to sydney, it may well be full ex Sydney, with connecting passengers from brisbane melbourne, and merely transit in Perth.
Such a service would be unique in not stopping anywere enroute except Perth.
It has already been stated that the first QF 787 sectors (on sale in December supposedly), will be an existing route, as would be common sense to get used to the new type. With new routes being announced afterward.
Economically, you'd have to say MEL - DFW would be higher on the priority list than Direct London. So I'd expect that or something else new to come beforehand, but I wouldn't be surprised if Perth Direct London followed shortly after. Especially seeing the GC route between the two is practically the same (yes, I realise routings over the Middle East and Europe are not as good as the flex tracks over the pacific, but still, should be within the capabilities, if on the limits, of a 230-240 seat 787).
Yep, lets not forget the part they are talking about converting (the part inherited from Virgin) was for many years Perth's International terminal anyway. Back to the future!!
It sits very empty and idle for most of the week. I could see having all of the QF group international flights hubbing through there as a great idea.
Push all of the QF, JQ and Qlink stuff into the current domestic side and link all that regional and domestic feed straight into the current QF group International services: At present count these will be Two daily QF 737's to Singapore (probably larger aircraft when they become available as the single daily flights have been fairly popular load wise so far), a seasonal Auckland A330, Two daily Jetstar Asia Singapore Directs, and three to four JQ Aus Bali services. All of which are currently fairly evenly spread throughout the day slot wise. This should, with the addition of a few 787 services direct to a few places further afield (LHR and hopefully others HKG, maybe JNB etc) at appropriate times, provide adequate economic justification and utilisation for a small stand alone facility without overcrowding it too badly.
That is at least until Perth Airport Management start the next phase of the combined terminal precinct over at the international side. Something that is still around a decade away.
In terms of economic load factors going LHR direct, with QF 787s being fitted out with supposedly 235 seats, 70-80 of those being Business and Premium Economy, your 60%ish break-even load factor kicks in at around 140-150 odd pax (crude maths yes, but try to ignore semantics at this stage of what is merely pure speculation).
Other than Perth, with 2 million+ people, theres another 500000 in greater WA, many of those within a 3 to 4hr drive or a maximum 2.5 hr flight.
Add this to; Adelaide~ 1.3 million
Canberra~ 0.5million
Alice and Darwin~ 200k
So there is around 4.5 million people who could potentially provide a base market for these services. Also, lets not forget that supposedly over 200,000 people in Perth were born in the UK. Add to that the attractiveness of what of a single (i think slightly quicker 16hr or so?), hop in the opposite direction for 9 odd million in Greater London alone (64 million in the UK), who may be tourists, business folk or friends and family visiting… so before we event count the feed from other east coast Aussie Cities, QF could possibly do very well out of this.
Certainly, putting 150 bums on board each day out of Perth, Adelaide and Canberra alone, is entirely plausible. You'd only need 10 or 20 pax out of each of BNE, SYD, MEL, who don't mind the long sector, or who want to support an Australian carrier (or avoid the Middle East), along with a bit of freight at 10 or so bucks a kilo and theres some nice profitable icing on the cake.
I believe QF currently still have 5 Heathrow slots?? They were never let go of, merely on lease to BA whilst not needed. Second hand info though.
Economically, you'd have to say MEL - DFW would be higher on the priority list than Direct London. So I'd expect that or something else new to come beforehand, but I wouldn't be surprised if Perth Direct London followed shortly after. Especially seeing the GC route between the two is practically the same (yes, I realise routings over the Middle East and Europe are not as good as the flex tracks over the pacific, but still, should be within the capabilities, if on the limits, of a 230-240 seat 787).
This of course would necessitate Customs and immigration in an INTL section of the Qantas/former Domestic terminal.
It sits very empty and idle for most of the week. I could see having all of the QF group international flights hubbing through there as a great idea.
Push all of the QF, JQ and Qlink stuff into the current domestic side and link all that regional and domestic feed straight into the current QF group International services: At present count these will be Two daily QF 737's to Singapore (probably larger aircraft when they become available as the single daily flights have been fairly popular load wise so far), a seasonal Auckland A330, Two daily Jetstar Asia Singapore Directs, and three to four JQ Aus Bali services. All of which are currently fairly evenly spread throughout the day slot wise. This should, with the addition of a few 787 services direct to a few places further afield (LHR and hopefully others HKG, maybe JNB etc) at appropriate times, provide adequate economic justification and utilisation for a small stand alone facility without overcrowding it too badly.
That is at least until Perth Airport Management start the next phase of the combined terminal precinct over at the international side. Something that is still around a decade away.
In terms of economic load factors going LHR direct, with QF 787s being fitted out with supposedly 235 seats, 70-80 of those being Business and Premium Economy, your 60%ish break-even load factor kicks in at around 140-150 odd pax (crude maths yes, but try to ignore semantics at this stage of what is merely pure speculation).
Other than Perth, with 2 million+ people, theres another 500000 in greater WA, many of those within a 3 to 4hr drive or a maximum 2.5 hr flight.
Add this to; Adelaide~ 1.3 million
Canberra~ 0.5million
Alice and Darwin~ 200k
So there is around 4.5 million people who could potentially provide a base market for these services. Also, lets not forget that supposedly over 200,000 people in Perth were born in the UK. Add to that the attractiveness of what of a single (i think slightly quicker 16hr or so?), hop in the opposite direction for 9 odd million in Greater London alone (64 million in the UK), who may be tourists, business folk or friends and family visiting… so before we event count the feed from other east coast Aussie Cities, QF could possibly do very well out of this.
Certainly, putting 150 bums on board each day out of Perth, Adelaide and Canberra alone, is entirely plausible. You'd only need 10 or 20 pax out of each of BNE, SYD, MEL, who don't mind the long sector, or who want to support an Australian carrier (or avoid the Middle East), along with a bit of freight at 10 or so bucks a kilo and theres some nice profitable icing on the cake.
That would be correct provided Qantas can secure the slots at Heathrow